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Old 04-14-2011, 08:47 AM    (permalink
JBCX
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I'd say Miller, Peterson, and Robert Quinn are the 3 best defensive players in this draft.

Jimmy Smith could put his hat in there if it wasn't for character concerns.
Quinn isn't even close to being on the same level as Miller.

In my opinion, in terms of defensive talent in this draft, it's Miller and Peterson at the top, Miller being a better pick than Peterson simply because 3-4 OLB will do more for you than CB.

After that, it's a drop-off in talent to the likes of Fairley, Dareus, JJ Watt and Justin Houston. Robert Quinn is far below these guys. He lacks elite athleticism as evidenced by his poor combine workouts, and not only that but he racked up his sacks in 2009 against weak competition. Then he missed an entire season of college football.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Quinn isn't even close to being on the same level as Miller.

In my opinion, in terms of defensive talent in this draft, it's Miller and Peterson at the top, Miller being a better pick than Peterson simply because 3-4 OLB will do more for you than CB.

After that, it's a drop-off in talent to the likes of Fairley, Dareus, JJ Watt and Justin Houston. Robert Quinn is far below these guys. He lacks elite athleticism as evidenced by his poor combine workouts, and not only that but he racked up his sacks in 2009 against weak competition. Then he missed an entire season of college football.
Quinn blew up his pro day. Had a great pro day.

Dez Bryant had a mediocre pro day after being out of football for a year. Look at him now, he's a freak.

Quinn is this year's Dez. The guy is an absolute monster. He's still getting in shape. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Quinn winds up being the better NFL player.

Id give Quinn serious consideration over Von if I was a team who needed a pass rusher.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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As far as Gabe Carimi goes, I'm starting to not love him as much. Ive seen more of him lately, and his feet and hips aren't LT worthy.

In fact, it might not even be RT worthy. At this point, I'm thinking he's definitely not a LT, and he'll be a good RT in the pros. However, I think his absolute best position is RG. I think this guy is Shawn Andrews Part 2. The guy can be an absolute monster RG.

Probably a monster LG too. You take his one weakness, which is heavy feet, and you eliminate it from mattering at Guard. The guy is the best run blocking olinemen ive seen in quite some time, and he's strong as an ox. He'd make an amazing G in the pros.

Now we obviously have plenty of Guards, so you question whether we should take him at all. We'd probably make him a RT, and I'd be ok with that. I still like him a lot, but after watching more of him and Castonzo, I no longer view Carimi as a better prospect.

I think they're equal as prospects. Castonzo is a LT. He'll be a solid but not spectacular one, but he'll be an LT. Gabe is either a RT or G. So while I love Gabe more as a player, his upside is more limited. So it really depends what you're looking for.

Me? I'd still choose Gabe over Castonzo. But I'll understand if we took Castonzo. Gabe is limited. More versatile, yes, but limited upside.

Truth be told, if our staff does their homework on Jimmy Smith and they feel his character concerns can be managed, then he should be the pick.

Jimmy Smith is clearly BPA at 19.
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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Quinn blew up his pro day. Had a great pro day.

Dez Bryant had a mediocre pro day after being out of football for a year. Look at him now, he's a freak.

Quinn is this year's Dez. The guy is an absolute monster. He's still getting in shape. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Quinn winds up being the better NFL player.

Id give Quinn serious consideration over Von if I was a team who needed a pass rusher.
Fact of the matter is, Von Miller blew up all of the drills at the combine important to pass-rushers. Quinn sucked at them. I don't trust Pro Days nearly as much as the Combine for the important VJ/BJ/SS times for pass rushers. And even more importantly, Miller played last year and dominated beter competition than Quinn ever faced in his one decent year at UNC.

If he's still "getting into shape" at this time of the year, what was he doing earlier with all of that free time while he was suspended?

I guarantee you that Miller will be 10x the player that Quinn will be in the NFL. I don't see anything in Quinn that suggests to me anything more than a slightly above-average player. Miller has the potential to be the next DeMarcus Ware.

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Old 04-14-2011, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Fact of the matter is, Von Miller blew up all of the drills at the combine important to pass-rushers. Quinn sucked at them. I don't trust Pro Days nearly as much as the Combine for the important VJ/BJ/SS times for pass rushers. And even more importantly, Miller played last year and dominated beter competition than Quinn ever faced in his one decent year at UNC.

If he's still "getting into shape" at this time of the year, what was he doing earlier with all of that free time while he was suspended?

I guarantee you that Miller will be 10x the player that Quinn will be in the NFL. I don't see anything in Quinn that suggests to me anything more than a slightly above-average player. Miller has the potential to be the next DeMarcus Ware.
Believe me, I love me some Von Miller. But to be fair, Von could also be the next Aaron Maybin.

He's a raw gifted athlete who is far from a finished product. I love the guy, but he's not a guarantee to succeed. I'd bet on him becoming a great player, but I wouldn't expect immediate results.

Quinn is more polished, and I think you're underrating his athleticism and ability. The guy is a very good football player.
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Believe me, I love me some Von Miller. But to be fair, Von could also be the next Aaron Maybin.

He's a raw gifted athlete who is far from a finished product. I love the guy, but he's not a guarantee to succeed. I'd bet on him becoming a great player, but I wouldn't expect immediate results.

Quinn is more polished, and I think you're underrating his athleticism and ability. The guy is a very good football player.
The numbers don't lie, my friend.

Robert Quinn: 34" VJ, 09'08" BJ, 4.40s SS
Von Miller: 37" VJ, 10'06" BJ, 4.06s SS

There are few, if any, elite pass rushers in the NFL today with a SS time of greater than 4.30sec who don't also have an elite Vertical Jump (38"+) and elite Broad Jump (10'+)

With a mediocre 4.40s Short Shuttle time, and average VJ/BJ, Quinn demonstrates only average athleticism and is a risk to be drafted as a pass rusher if you pay attention to any historical trends. I repeat, few, if any pass rushers succeed in the NFL with mediocre VJ/BJ/SS numbers. Take a look at my thread that I started in the general draft forum about this topic.

Von Miller, on the other hand, has some of the best numbers at these drills for 3-4 OLBs / 4-3 DEs since this guy named DeMarcus Ware in 2005:

DeMarcus Ware: 38.5" VJ, 10'02" BJ, 4.07s SS

And then tie in the fact that Miller played more games in college, against better competition than Quinn, and I don't see how you can possibly rate Quinn as a better pass rusher prospect.
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Fairley has elite physical talents but has huge character concerns and I see alot of lazy in him that will prevent him from realizing his full potential.

Dareus is nothing more than a 2-gap run stuffer with average pass-rushing ability that will turn into a Vonnie Holliday or a Brett Keisel in the NFL.

Peterson will be an elite cornerback but cornerbacks can only do so much to impact a game.

Miller has all of the physical tools to be the next DeMarcus Ware, and he is almost entirely free of character concerns as well. If I were to put money on the most sure-fire prospect in this draft, it'd be him. Plug him in either into a 4-3 as a WLB or a 3-4 as an OLB, and he'll be one of the top 5 players at his position within 2 years in the NFL.
can't believe this. So you expect him to be ELITE, hanging around revis and asomugha, a guy who shuts down half the field and you believe he doesn't stack up to von miller? As for your robert quinn debate, i think you're being a bit ignorant. The only reason he's not in contention to be the #1 overall pick is because he didn't play this year in fact, a guy sat out the whole year and is still being talked about in the top 10...what does that say...also can't believe you just used combine measurables to form an argument that miller is a superior player. That said i like miller...but i'm not about to go and hand him DROY right now.
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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can't believe this. So you expect him to be ELITE, hanging around revis and asomugha, a guy who shuts down half the field and you believe he doesn't stack up to von miller? As for your robert quinn debate, i think you're being a bit ignorant. The only reason he's not in contention to be the #1 overall pick is because he didn't play this year in fact, a guy sat out the whole year and is still being talked about in the top 10...what does that say...also can't believe you just used combine measurables to form an argument that miller is a superior player. That said i like miller...but i'm not about to go and hand him DROY right now.
How am *I* being ignorant about Robert Quinn when I'm bringing up facts about his lack of competition, his lack of playing time, the deficiency of his workout numbers, and all you guys can point to is this vague notion that he's a "beast"?

Whether you want to face the facts or not, combine workouts matter for DEs and 3-4 OLBs, alot. I went through the numbers for all of the elite NFL pass rushers in the game today and few, if any, do not have either elite VJ and BJ, or elite SS/3-Cone, or both. Check it out yourself in my other thread:

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46722
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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How am *I* being ignorant about Robert Quinn when I'm bringing up facts about his lack of competition, his lack of playing time, the deficiency of his workout numbers, and all you guys can point to is this vague notion that he's a "beast"?

Whether you want to face the facts or not, combine workouts matter for DEs and 3-4 OLBs, alot. I went through the numbers for all of the elite NFL pass rushers in the game today and few, if any, do not have either elite VJ and BJ, or elite SS/3-Cone, or both. Check it out yourself in my other thread:

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46722
lack of competition..? It's not like miller is playing in the SEC. I put just about 0 stock into combine numbers, did you also have the same argument for vernon gholston? And as i said before...quinn got a stupid suspension, evaluate him by his 09' numbers and you're talking about a top 3 pick. I'm not saying oh hey quinn will be way better than miller, i'm saying miller isn't THAT good to completely discredit every other elite defensive prospect in this draft.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Your argument against Quinn is his combine #s.

Yet you're ignoring the fact that his combine #s will clearly not be up to par with everyone else bc he didn't play football for a year.

Quinn is a great athlete. Many speculate he could have been a top 2 pick this year if he played.

I'm not saying Von is worse, I love Von. But Quinn is no scrub. In a 4-3 defense, I'll take Quinn over Von 10 out of 10 times.

In a 3-4, it's up for debate. I'd probably go with Von, but Quinn would be a great consolation prize.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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As for the Giants, since none of that is relevant to the Giants, I'm all aboard the Jimmy Smith bandwagon.

If his character checks out and he's there at 19, he's clearly BPA. I say we take him if we feel comfortable with his character.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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As for the Giants, since none of that is relevant to the Giants, I'm all aboard the Jimmy Smith bandwagon.

If his character checks out and he's there at 19, he's clearly BPA. I say we take him if we feel comfortable with his character.
Another damn defensive player in the first round? I swear, you'd think we would have the most amazing defense ever since we keep fixating on defense. Nicks has been the only offensive player drafted in the first round in 6 years!!! No more damn defense! I like BPA.. but god I hope it's an offensive player. Ok, I got that off my chest!
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Another damn defensive player in the first round? I swear, you'd think we would have the most amazing defense ever since we keep fixating on defense. Nicks has been the only offensive player drafted in the first round in 6 years!!! No more damn defense! I like BPA.. but god I hope it's an offensive player. Ok, I got that off my chest!
defense wins championships! :)

Let me ask you something. Bc you'll know as a coach. Mike Pouncey intrigues me. The guy is a physical wonder, he is just as athletic as his brother who is a PBer.

The guy played dline, then went to LG and shifted to Center last year. He struggled snapping the ball but improved as the season went on and was very good at blocking.

Now if you're the Giants with our 1st round pick...do you pass bc of his snapping issues, or do you find that to be a very correctable flaw?

Also, I need to note that I cannot comment on how well he can adjust protections and call audibles. What's your thoughts?

The more I think about it, the more I feel that maybe with a TC worth of snapping practice, he can correct his one flaw, and he'd be a good player.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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defense wins championships! :)

Let me ask you something. Bc you'll know as a coach. Mike Pouncey intrigues me. The guy is a physical wonder, he is just as athletic as his brother who is a PBer.

The guy played dline, then went to LG and shifted to Center last year. He struggled snapping the ball but improved as the season went on and was very good at blocking.

Now if you're the Giants with our 1st round pick...do you pass bc of his snapping issues, or do you find that to be a very correctable flaw?

Also, I need to note that I cannot comment on how well he can adjust protections and call audibles. What's your thoughts?

The more I think about it, the more I feel that maybe with a TC worth of snapping practice, he can correct his one flaw, and he'd be a good player.


Yes, I supposed they do.. However, for that to work you need a consistent, and capable DC. Not the musical chairs show we put on what seems yearly now...

Lewis
Spags
Sheridan
Fewell

I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves next year for a HCing job, especially if teams keep interviewing him to fulfill the Rooney rule.

If he is a good prospect and worthy by our staff as a first rounder, and a good talent, and if he is there, then I'd draft him. Snapping is a fixable problem. That's why this sport has position coaches, and training camp. Also, we have one of the best OL coach in the business. So I am not worried about that. If he is as good as people say, then I wouldn't hesitate to draft him.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Yes, I supposed they do.. However, for that to work you need a consistent, and capable DC. Not the musical chairs show we put on what seems yearly now...

Lewis
Spags
Sheridan
Fewell

I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves next year for a HCing job, especially if teams keep interviewing him to fulfill the Rooney rule.

If he is a good prospect and worthy by our staff as a first rounder, and a good talent, and if he is there, then I'd draft him. Snapping is a fixable problem. That's why this sport has position coaches, and training camp. Also, we have one of the best OL coach in the business. So I am not worried about that. If he is as good as people say, then I wouldn't hesitate to draft him.
Ok, this is my follow up question then. In this scenario that you just described, Pouncey is clearly the best mix of need and talent available at 19, bc he solves our Center need (and to a lesser extent a need at Guard) while also giving us great value.

However, Jimmy Smith is by far BPA at 19, fills a long term need at CB (CB won't be an issue this year, but as early as next year it could be), so do you stay true to your draft board and take Jimmy Smith or do you draft Pouncey? A guy who fills a more immediate need but also has a lower draft grade on him?
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Ok, this is my follow up question then. In this scenario that you just described, Pouncey is clearly the best mix of need and talent available at 19, bc he solves our Center need (and to a lesser extent a need at Guard) while also giving us great value.

However, Jimmy Smith is by far BPA at 19, fills a long term need at CB (CB won't be an issue this year, but as early as next year it could be), so do you stay true to your draft board and take Jimmy Smith or do you draft Pouncey? A guy who fills a more immediate need but also has a lower draft grade on him?
Hmm... well I am biased.. I think BPA according to you suggests take the CB. However, the NEED is offensive line..

Everyone but Snee was injured at some point. Bradshaw was hurt this year but had a great year. Our scheme starts with the running game and ball control. However, during the early part of the year our OL stunk. It was all Bradshaw creating something out of nothing to carry us. Jacobs was healthier than towards the end and played well.

So if we want depth, and a good OL that can maul opposing DL players causing us to get back to that sick running game the OL is the best option in terms of need. We also then measure the need and BPA balance perfect then.

People say if Bradshaw wants a lot let him go.. Fair enough, however I like him a lot. So that means we need a SICK OL that can set the table for Jacobs or else his large frame isn't going anywhere, not to mention he can barely stay healthy. So then that goes our running game.

At this juncture, I think we need offensive trench players. Way too many question marks there. NEED VS BPA strikes a better balance than purely BPA, Smith.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy Smith has a lot of Revis in him though. It would be awfully hard for me to pass that up.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy Smith has a lot of Revis in him though. It would be awfully hard for me to pass that up.
Maybe but the need is not where close to OL. Perhaps BPA checks out.. but not need.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Maybe but the need is not where close to OL. Perhaps BPA checks out.. but not need.
The thing is, we have 7 rounds worth of draft picks. Why can't we grab a Center in the 2nd or 3rd?

The drop off between Jimmy Smith and another CB past the first is greater than the drop off btw Pouncey and other Centers later on.

Im still an O'Dowd fan and he seems like a 4th rounder at this point.

I think you have to factor in diminishing returns into the equation as well.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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The thing is, we have 7 rounds worth of draft picks. Why can't we grab a Center in the 2nd or 3rd?

The drop off between Jimmy Smith and another CB past the first is greater than the drop off btw Pouncey and other Centers later on.

Im still an O'Dowd fan and he seems like a 4th rounder at this point.

I think you have to factor in diminishing returns into the equation as well.
I would like us to sack up and actually draft a damn offensive linemen. We can say the same about going defense every year.. What about Mangold? Pouncy last year? Now once again, we pass up a prospect? Can't we draft defense sometime later?

Basically, when Fewell leaves, if history repeats itself, we will hire a lemon anyways, who makes our defense look terrible, thus inciting fans to think we stink, alarming our FO to draft defense once again.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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I would like us to sack up and actually draft a damn offensive linemen. We can say the same about going defense every year.. What about Mangold? Pouncy last year? Now once again, we pass up a prospect? Can't we draft defense sometime later?

Basically, when Fewell leaves, if history repeats itself, we will hire a lemon anyways, who makes our defense look terrible, thus inciting fans to think we stink, alarming our FO to draft defense once again.
It seems like you'll get your wish. The Giants seem hell bent on getting an olinemen this year.

Jimmy Smith has all the makings of being the type of CB I always wanted, so I'm partial to him bc of that. But again, it all depends on whether his character checks out to me. I doubt we take him, but I would love the pick if it happened.

We just need a DC who will blitz and play press man coverage. A 46 defense disciple. Its frustrating that we don't go for that (outside of Spags).
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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It seems like you'll get your wish. The Giants seem hell bent on getting an olinemen this year.

Jimmy Smith has all the makings of being the type of CB I always wanted, so I'm partial to him bc of that. But again, it all depends on whether his character checks out to me. I doubt we take him, but I would love the pick if it happened.

We just need a DC who will blitz and play press man coverage. A 46 defense disciple. Its frustrating that we don't go for that (outside of Spags).
I know! hehe thats why I am looking forward to this draft.. Mind you if we go defense and you hear.. NOOOOOOOOO echoing throughout the land, you know it's me!
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Old 04-16-2011, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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I'd also like to see a D pick, i couldn't argue with an OL pick, but i feel like our offense is further along than our defense is at this point.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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After lookin back at Brandon Harris and Jimmy Smith, i just don't see what i like enough for a 1st round pick. Harris looks too small, doesn't have the best recovery speed, but makes good judgments on the ball and patterns. Smith looks like he strays away from contact, gets pushed around by blockers on occasion, but he is absolutely fantastic in press coverage.

BBD i dont think either Pouncey or Jimmy Smith are BPA at 19, but i agree with you that Jimmy Smith has all the makings of a starting CB, and a great one in press. But i don't like that he isn't as fluid and tends to let receivers eat up the cushion very quickly.

Personally Id only be comfortable with Tyron Smith or Amukamara at 19. If something happens where we go after Peterson, Miller, or Dareus thats even better, but those five players are the only ones i feel less bust potential with in a draft that has alot of risks.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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could we draft JJ Watt to be a UT?
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