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Old 05-24-2010, 11:01 PM    (permalink
dannyz
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Default 1970s Steelers vs 1980s 49ERS

This might not be the place for this but I think it would be cool to see what you think if the 1970s Steelers went against the 1980s 49ERS just want to know what you all think ?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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49ers all the way !!
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Look at all the stars Blount,Lott,Montana,Lambert,too many to count. Steel Curtian against Jerry Rice would be a Fantastic Game.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Is it the rules of the 1970's, or the rules of the 1980's? Because whether or not Mel Blount can break Jerry Rice in half midroute and not be penalized is kind've important.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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The Pittsburgh Steelers wouldn't be able to cope with Walsh's West Coast offense. If any classic Cover 2 would theoretically stand a chance of keeping up, I imagine theirs would be the one, but the West Coast was designed specifically as a response to the league-wide movement to zone heavy schemes that was created by the success of the Steel Curtain.

Perhaps more important is that I think the Niners defense would have been well suited to handle Pittsburgh's attack. Lott, whether at corner or safety, would have taken the top away from that great deep passing attack.

The matchup I'd be most interested to watch? Joe Montana throwing the quick slant to Rice against Jack Ham.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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Rodger Craig in the middle to Lambert. Other than Lott who else does San Fran have to beat that Steelers offense?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Rodger Craig in the middle to Lambert. Other than Lott who else does San Fran have to beat that Steelers offense?
Hicks, Reynold, and Dean?
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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Rodger Craig in the middle to Lambert. Other than Lott who else does San Fran have to beat that Steelers offense?
Kenna Turner, Michael Carter, Charles Haley, Fred Dean, Eric Wright, Dwight Hicks, and Kevin Fagan were some of the notable names on defense.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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OK Cool Thank You. Yeah that would be a good game
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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niners, hands down.

charles haley would just pull out his dick on the field and start talking about the steelers players wives in an explicit manner while beating off
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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The Pittsburgh Steelers wouldn't be able to cope with Walsh's West Coast offense. If any classic Cover 2 would theoretically stand a chance of keeping up, I imagine theirs would be the one, but the West Coast was designed specifically as a response to the league-wide movement to zone heavy schemes that was created by the success of the Steel Curtain.

Perhaps more important is that I think the Niners defense would have been well suited to handle Pittsburgh's attack. Lott, whether at corner or safety, would have taken the top away from that great deep passing attack.

The matchup I'd be most interested to watch? Joe Montana throwing the quick slant to Rice against Jack Ham.
I thought the WCO was designed to beat the heavy blitz/man-to-man schemes that teams started running in the 80s? To be fair, the WCO Walsh installed in SF was completely different than the one he ran under Paul Brown with the Bengals in the late 70s/early 80s. Pitt's Cover Two is the perfect defense to stop the SF West Coast Offense (as we saw with Oak-TB), and the proliferation of the Tampa Two in the late 90s/early 2000s is a huge reason why we saw the true WCO die out in that time period.

This would be an aboslutely amazing game to watch, though. So many Hall of Famers it'd be unreal.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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The Pittsburgh Steelers wouldn't be able to cope with Walsh's West Coast offense. If any classic Cover 2 would theoretically stand a chance of keeping up, I imagine theirs would be the one, but the West Coast was designed specifically as a response to the league-wide movement to zone heavy schemes that was created by the success of the Steel Curtain.

Perhaps more important is that I think the Niners defense would have been well suited to handle Pittsburgh's attack. Lott, whether at corner or safety, would have taken the top away from that great deep passing attack.

The matchup I'd be most interested to watch? Joe Montana throwing the quick slant to Rice against Jack Ham.
Dude, you got it totally backwards. You beat the Tampa 2 vertically.

WCO was designed to beat the 46 style defenses, the Tampa 2 was born after the WCO became a trend in the NFL, to combat the WCO.

Then the Tampa 2 saw its demise when the league went vertical again.

Which is why you see the ZB and 46 popular again. The ever revolving door of football "evolution" if you will. We just keep going in circles.

Mark my words, the next trend will be going to a 4-3 defense. The 4-3 is the new 3-4, if that makes any sense.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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Dude, you got it totally backwards. You beat the Tampa 2 vertically.
You beat the original form of the Cover-2 by expanding the dangerous middle of the field. You run the ball and do really quick passes early to keep the linebackers from being able to take a step back and sit in passing lanes and then you exploit those gaps with a variety of inside routes, both deep and shallow. So, unless, I'm missing something, that's exactly the entire idea behind Walsh's original imagining of the WCO. He built that offense to pull zones around the field and create those gaps that would allow for big plays.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I thought the WCO was designed to beat the heavy blitz/man-to-man schemes that teams started running in the 80s? To be fair, the WCO Walsh installed in SF was completely different than the one he ran under Paul Brown with the Bengals in the late 70s/early 80s. Pitt's Cover Two is the perfect defense to stop the SF West Coast Offense (as we saw with Oak-TB), and the proliferation of the Tampa Two in the late 90s/early 2000s is a huge reason why we saw the true WCO die out in that time period.

This would be an aboslutely amazing game to watch, though. So many Hall of Famers it'd be unreal.
The West Coast offense hasn't died out. It's still prevalent today in the majority of offenses. At least elements of it. As for referencing Oakland and Tampa Bay, it was John Gruden's experience with his old team that was the difference maker, not necessarily the offensive scheme of the Oakland Raiders and defensive scheme of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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You beat the original form of the Cover-2 by expanding the dangerous middle of the field. You run the ball and do really quick passes early to keep the linebackers from being able to take a step back and sit in passing lanes and then you exploit those gaps with a variety of inside routes, both deep and shallow. So, unless, I'm missing something, that's exactly the entire idea behind Walsh's original imagining of the WCO. He built that offense to pull zones around the field and create those gaps that would allow for big plays.
This strategy would be excellent against a Cover Two defense that can't get a lot of pressure and disruption from it's front four. It doesn't really work in practice, though, because of the way the corners play in the Cover Two defense (especially before the rules changes). The corners do everything possible to keep their man at the line of scrimmage and funnel everything inside. They can do know they have safety help over the top and it gives the linebackers far less ground to cover, as well as an extra second or two to cover it. This problem is exacerbated when the defensive line is wreaking havoc with just a four man rush - you've got seven guys to cover (5 underneath), which makes windows really, really small. That's the major reason why we're seeing the Cover Two die off - because corners can't get away with nearly as much as they used to be able to and coordinators are much more adept at finding way to get their guys clean releases.

The only way to really, really expose the weakness of the Cover Two is to have a pounding running game that forces one of the safeties to come up consistently. If they're allowed to keep two deep the majority of the time, there's only two really vulnerable spots on it - the deep middle, splitting the two safeties and the "honey hole" in between the CB and S. Problem is that hitting these spots with any sort of consistency requires a lot of time and protection.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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The West Coast offense hasn't died out. It's still prevalent today in the majority of offenses. At least elements of it. As for referencing Oakland and Tampa Bay, it was John Gruden's experience with his old team that was the difference maker, not necessarily the offensive scheme of the Oakland Raiders and defensive scheme of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Please...any team that runs it is just running principles of it or incorporates some philosophies of it. They're West Coast Offenses in name only. The last true WCO team was Seattle under Mora/Knapp. We'll see how Carroll/Bates structure the offense.

Philly runs a "WCO" but it's more Air Coryell than anything. It's predominantly shotgun with deep routes. Same goes for Green Bay and Minnesota. They're hybrid WCO schemes. Shannahan and Kubiak run a WCO in name, but their entire offense is based off the zone run and the bootleg off of that (eliminating half a field worth of reads) than any particular passing philosophy. They all have some WCO principals, yes, but they're very far removed from the original thing.

It's like the spread offense in college football. Take Florida for example: look at how fundamentally different the offense was under Spurrier, Zook, and Meyer. Yet, it's never been called anything other than the "spread" there. Furthermore, look at how different the spread is at with Meyer at Florida, compared to Texas Tech under Leach, to Texas under Mack Brown, to the one run at Oklahoma. All are dubbed "spread offense" yet they're all so different that they're not even really comparable.

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Old 05-25-2010, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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If they're allowed to keep two deep the majority of the time, there's only two really vulnerable spots on it - the deep middle, splitting the two safeties and the "honey hole" in between the CB and S. Problem is that hitting these spots with any sort of consistency requires a lot of time and protection.
...or Joe Montana.

But fair enough.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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...or Joe Montana.

But fair enough.
Which is what makes this conversation so interesting. It was the perfect match of coaches, players, system, city/weather environment. And that's why they were a dynasty.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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The truth is, every philosophy now has been incorporated into every system.

There are elements of Cover/Tampa 2 in every defense, elements of the 46 in every defense, the ZB in every defense etc.

On offense, you see the same thing, just jumble all the different schemes together bc everyone uses some elements of every system.


What separates offenses and defenses now is how much of one style in particular they like to use, and what type of players do they look for in their system.

Every offense and defense is a hybrid of multiple schemes today, but how much of a hybrid depends on the coach's preferences. The last true Tampa 2 was Dungy's team in Indy and Kiffin's D in Tampa. Supposedly Raheem Morris plans on running a true Tampa 2 this year again, so Tampa will be the only true Tampa 2 team left (Indy isn't really a true Tampa 2 anymore).
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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The truth is, every philosophy now has been incorporated into every system.

There are elements of Cover/Tampa 2 in every defense, elements of the 46 in every defense, the ZB in every defense etc.

On offense, you see the same thing, just jumble all the different schemes together bc everyone uses some elements of every system.


What separates offenses and defenses now is how much of one style in particular they like to use, and what type of players do they look for in their system.

Every offense and defense is a hybrid of multiple schemes today, but how much of a hybrid depends on the coach's preferences. The last true Tampa 2 was Dungy's team in Indy and Kiffin's D in Tampa. Supposedly Raheem Morris plans on running a true Tampa 2 this year again, so Tampa will be the only true Tampa 2 team left (Indy isn't really a true Tampa 2 anymore).
And the Giants under Fewell. ;)
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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And the Giants under Fewell. ;)

I'm still in denial. Just know when you see the Giants get lit up during the season, somewhere in Jersey at that exact moment, I'm going to be going nuts and throwing **** around in my living room haha.

Seriously, I could coordinate our defense. It baffles me how our DCs keep ******* it up.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Please...any team that runs it is just running principles of it or incorporates some philosophies of it. They're West Coast Offenses in name only. The last true WCO team was Seattle under Mora/Knapp. We'll see how Carroll/Bates structure the offense.

Philly runs a "WCO" but it's more Air Coryell than anything. It's predominantly shotgun with deep routes. Same goes for Green Bay and Minnesota. They're hybrid WCO schemes. Shannahan and Kubiak run a WCO in name, but their entire offense is based off the zone run and the bootleg off of that (eliminating half a field worth of reads) than any particular passing philosophy. They all have some WCO principals, yes, but they're very far removed from the original thing.

It's like the spread offense in college football. Take Florida for example: look at how fundamentally different the offense was under Spurrier, Zook, and Meyer. Yet, it's never been called anything other than the "spread" there. Furthermore, look at how different the spread is at with Meyer at Florida, compared to Texas Tech under Leach, to Texas under Mack Brown, to the one run at Oklahoma. All are dubbed "spread offense" yet they're all so different that they're not even really comparable.
You completely misunderstood what I just said. I said the west coast hasn't died out. I never said that any team runs a pure version of the west coast. That hasn't been done since the early 1990's. You just wasted all of your breath for nothing. I merely said that elements of it still exist in most offenses, therefore it hasn't died out. So I don't know why you just went on an entire tangent of what I already said in my initial post in one sentence.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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You completely misunderstood what I just said. I said the west coast hasn't died out. I never said that any team runs a pure version of the west coast. That hasn't been done since the early 1990's. You just wasted all of your breath for nothing. I merely said that elements of it still exist in most offenses, therefore it hasn't died out. So I don't know why you just went on an entire tangent of what I already said in my initial post in one sentence.
By dying out, I meant that teams are no longer going out of their way to hire WCO disciples, build their teams around it, and draft around that philosophy like it seemed every team was doing in the 90s. That's all. The same way that the Cover Two has died out of the NFL for the time being. Sure, there are still principals of it in every offense, and a couple of teams still run it, but it's ultimately dead as a league-wide trend.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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By dying out, I meant that teams are no longer going out of their way to hire WCO disciples, build their teams around it, and draft around that philosophy like it seemed every team was doing in the 90s. That's all. The same way that the Cover Two has died out of the NFL for the time being. Sure, there are still principals of it in every offense, and a couple of teams still run it, but it's ultimately dead as a league-wide trend.
Didn't Mike Shanahan just get hired again? And Gary Kubiak's tenure in Houston isn't that old. Probably won't be long until Mike's son is hired for a job as well. Gruden I'm sure could get a job if he wanted to get back in the NFL. Probably Holmgren as well. Most teams, or not all of them have elements of the west coast offense in their current system. But no one has run a pure version of it for years. And to say that teams don't build around the west coast offense is trivial. Seeing as no one runs a pure version of it anymore, but still have elements of it in their offenses, it's really difficult to answer that question as if it were a black or white answer.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Didn't Mike Shanahan just get hired again? And Gary Kubiak's tenure in Houston isn't that old. Probably won't be long until Mike's son is hired for a job as well. Gruden I'm sure could get a job if he wanted to get back in the NFL. Probably Holmgren as well. Most teams, or not all of them have elements of the west coast offense in their current system. But no one has run a pure version of it for years. And to say that teams don't build around the west coast offense is trivial. Seeing as no one runs a pure version of it anymore, but still have elements of it in their offenses, it's really difficult to answer that question as if it were a black or white answer.
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Shannahan and Kubiak run a WCO in name, but their entire offense is based off the zone run and the bootleg off of that (eliminating half a field worth of reads) than any particular passing philosophy. They all have some WCO principals, yes, but they're very far removed from the original thing.
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