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Old 07-20-2010, 03:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
Pudge, I don't necessarily agree.

You assume that a change in the game would suggest and more and more wide receivers are voted in, but I think it's just as likely that the voters recognize that it is here that they can define what makes up a HOF-worthy wide receiver is from here on out. I think we'll see the criteria for what makes up a "shoe-in" candidate change dramatically, perhaps even before Harrison is first up for induction.

The longer is takes for him to get in, the less and less likely it's going to be. He's nowhere near on par with Moss or Owens and the more guys who retire with comparable numbers to Harrison, the less impressive he will look.

Do I think Harrison has been good enough to get into the Hall of Fame? Yes. Do I think that he'll move past his competition in the voting to get in before his numbers are belittled by the general upswing of hugely productive wideouts? Not really. It's not impossible, but it will take some luck.
Even as the NFL has become more and more of a passing league, it's going to be more difficult for someone to emulate what Marvin Harrison did, especially statistically. Now I don't think stats tell the entire story (Marvin was a ghost in a lot of his playoff games), but they are a big part of it. As far as wideouts are concerned, the number of 1,000 yard seasons have stayed about the same over the past few years. Even though the NFL has become more of a passing league, I think offenses are finding more talented wideouts to spread the ball around to other players...which doesn't necessarily translate to one player getting bigger numbers.

As for what this has to do with Harrison and his HOF potential status, nothing really. I'm just saying that it's going to be hard to emulate what he did over an entire career. His postseason performances hurt his 1st ballot chances though.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:02 AM    (permalink
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I would only argue with Champ Bailey there. He's never been the rock of consistency that I would equate with the great cornerbacks. He's had some fantastic years, but he's had some really rough times too.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:05 AM    (permalink
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I would only argue with Champ Bailey there. He's never been the rock of consistency that I would equate with the great cornerbacks. He's had some fantastic years, but he's had some really rough times too.
Fair enough. But then again, it's one of the positions in football where it's really hard to be consistent. Especially if the front seven is not that spectacular. If any corner from the last decade deserves it, it should be him.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:07 AM    (permalink
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Fair enough. But then again, it's one of the positions in football where it's really hard to be consistent. Especially if the front seven is not that spectacular. If any corner from the last decade deserves it, it should be him.
There may be a bit of fan bias here, but I honestly think that if Nnamdi Asomugha puts together another few years of shut-down play and then makes the transition to free safety successfully, he should make for a much stronger induction case. That's a lot of "ifs" though.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:14 AM    (permalink
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There may be a bit of fan bias here, but I honestly think that if Nnamdi Asomugha puts together another few years of shut-down play and then makes the transition to free safety successfully, he should make for a much stronger induction case. That's a lot of "ifs" though.
He'd have to have some really good luck for two reasons: his age, and his team. Nnamdi came into the league in 2003, but really didn't break out until 2007 I believe. He's already 29 and still plays for the Oakland Raiders. Things would really have to go his way in the next few seasons to have his chances boosted.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:17 AM    (permalink
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Really? He was in the NFL for just four years. It's absolutely ridiculous to even mention his name in this discussion. It's unfortunate he was killed, but four years doesn't make a Hall of Famer no matter what the circumstances.
Terrell Davis might be the lone exception to that. He was in the NFL for more than four seasons, but he really only had four good seasons in the NFL. Perhaps the best four season stretch for a runningback in NFL history.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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He'd have to have some really good luck for two reasons: his age, and his team. Nnamdi came into the league in 2003, but really didn't break out until 2007 I believe. He's already 29 and still plays for the Oakland Raiders. Things would really have to go his way in the next few seasons to have his chances boosted.
We'll have to see if he's even a Raider after this season.

And Nnamdi played had a great first year starting opposite and then replacing Charles Woodson (who got hurt), then nabbed 8 interceptions in 2006. In each of the three seasons since, he's allowed the least receptions of any starting cornerback.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:51 AM    (permalink
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Odds of Adrian Wilson making it in

2 100 tackle seasons, 20.5 Career Sacks, 12 FF, 23 INT

the only way I can think of him not getting in is because most anyone outside of Arizona(or the division) knew about him until his late 20s
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:51 AM    (permalink
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2002 - Marvin Harrison single-season receptions
2004 - Peyton Manning passing Tds
2007 - Tom Brady passing Tds, Randy Moss Td receptions
2008 - Drew Brees 5,000+ yards passing (15 shy of Marinos record)
2009 - Brandon Marshall single game receptions
add in Brees records for season passing accuracy last season
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:15 AM    (permalink
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why is this interesting?
Because more carries generally means less ypc for a running back if they're a starting player. It's more about how good Williams has been than CJ not having the potential. If CJ keeps it up, hell, if any of them keep it up it'll be interesting to watch.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:35 AM    (permalink
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Odds of Adrian Wilson making it in

2 100 tackle seasons, 20.5 Career Sacks, 12 FF, 23 INT

the only way I can think of him not getting in is because most anyone outside of Arizona(or the division) knew about him until his late 20s
Im not optimistic. Unless voters opinions change pretty soon that is. Safeties in general have a really hard time getting in to the Hall. Add in as you mentioned he spent the early part of his career under the radar and was probably never the best or even second best safety at any stage. A lot of people dont think Rodney Harrison will go in but his career stats are

7 100 tackle seasons, 1242 total tackles in his career, 30.5 career sacks, 34 INTs and 16 FFs.

I think he is way better than a lot of safeties who also have a chance at the Hall but by the time he retires there may start to be a backlog of safeties waiting to get in and he may get looked over
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:24 AM    (permalink
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He needs a few more big years. One super big year and I think he gets it MAYBE first ballot.

He was our passing attack last season. A poor passing game and he still had over 1000 yards. Not easy facing double teams all season because we had no one else to cover lol
no way in hell

chads stats are pretty close to wards, especially as far as TDs go...hes more of a down field type of guy so he gets a few more yards usually but hes no where near the top of this generation of WR and trying your absolute hardest to be funny and a TV personality doesnt lock you in the hall....he wont sniff the hall, the thought of him going first ballot would be criminal
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:52 AM    (permalink
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no love for Ronde Barber?
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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Chad Ochocinco will not make the Hall. I dont even think hes got as good of a shot as McNabb, who I think is in the hall of very good but wont quite make it. He may get some votes cause everyone thought he was fun and a great personality, but what hes done on the field cant compete with Randy, TO, Harrison, maybe even Steve Smith guys who were just much more dominant.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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this thread is lacking some serious Ray Rice.
and Jeff Feagles
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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After Ladanian, there really isn't another RB (other than Marshall Faulk) on the horizon who's even close to making it to Canton.

Sure, you can project ahead for guys like AD, but realistically, RB is one of those positions where you have to be utterly brilliant in your style of play, otherwise you need the longevity and the numbers.

For most backs going forward, IMO if they don't hit 13,000 career rushing yards and at least 95 TDs, the HOF will be a wish not reality.

Think about it; Tiki Barber is not gonna ever make it to Canton. Same for Ahman Green and a host of RBs who were outstanding in their time, but simply weren't consistent enough or didn't have the longevity.

Some act as if Adrian Peterson is a LOCK, when in fact he's 6 years away from even approaching numbers that would make him eligible for the HOF. That's a lot of hits and injuries he'll have to overcome to become one of the greats.

Which is another reason I believe one of the most important traits for an NFL RB is durability. The longer you can play and absorb hit after hit on every carry is one metric that separates the good from the great.

I feel the same way about this generation of WRs. After the obvious top 10 guys, active and retired, are sorted out, I don't see ANY under-25 WRs who look like potential alltimers.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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Chad Ochocinco will not make the Hall. I dont even think hes got as good of a shot as McNabb, who I think is in the hall of very good but wont quite make it. He may get some votes cause everyone thought he was fun and a great personality, but what hes done on the field cant compete with Randy, TO, Harrison, maybe even Steve Smith guys who were just much more dominant.
Who said those guys are necessarily "competing?" Due to the recent breakout of the passing game, this generation is bound to see an increase in the amount of receivers considered Hall-bound. It doesn't have to be only four or five players, we're literally witnessing (in the last decade) by far the most prolific passing/receiving decade ever. No need to fret of course, the amount of Running Backs that will be admitted to the Hall will undoubtedly be lower for the 2000-2010 period. Eventually, as the game continues to evolve, you'll see it's requirements (for the Hall) increase.

If Chad is sniffing around 1000 receptions and 15,000 yards he should be in, simple as that. That's three more productive seasons and two that may not be so productive but still have him in some sort of role. For a five year stretch from 2003-2007 he was consistently among the 3-5 most productive receivers in football and though you may have never thought he had the talent (to be a top 5 receiver in the best receiving generation ever,) he still produced as if he did. Whether you'd have agreed with it or not, he was 1st Team All-Pro twice with those same guys playing in the NFL. His personality surely won't get him in the Hall, but I wouldn't doubt his on-field accomplishments and what he has left in the tank. I'm not saying first ballot, of course, but taking into consideration a number of things I can't say that he has 'zero' chance.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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Early day predictions if production continues for some RBS:

Peterson: 3,385 carries for 15,715 yards 140 TDs

CJ2k: 3,045 carries for 16,170 yards 115 TDs

Williams: 2,710 carries for 14,378 yards 130 TDs
You really think there's a serious possibility that Adrian Peterson, Chris Johnson, and Deangelo Williams are arguably the 3 greatest RBs in the history of the NFL??

Speculation too on my part, but NO WAY Deangelo Williams or Chris Johnson come within 3000 yards of those numbers.

Adrian Peterson is going to get seriously hurt, a leg injury I suspect, in the next 4 years, so IMO he'd be lucky to hit 13,000 - 14,000. Which would still get HIM into the HOF.

Of the three I have more faith in AD being the 'one'.

Deangelo Williams and CJ, practically impossible.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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After Ladanian, there really isn't another RB (other than Marshall Faulk) on the horizon who's even close to making it to Canton.

Sure, you can project ahead for guys like AD, but realistically, RB is one of those positions where you have to be utterly brilliant in your style of play, otherwise you need the longevity and the numbers.

For most backs going forward, IMO if they don't hit 13,000 career rushing yards and at least 95 TDs, the HOF will be a wish not reality.

Think about it; Tiki Barber is not gonna ever make it to Canton. Same for Ahman Green and a host of RBs who were outstanding in their time, but simply weren't consistent enough or didn't have the longevity.

Some act as if Adrian Peterson is a LOCK, when in fact he's 6 years away from even approaching numbers that would make him eligible for the HOF. That's a lot of hits and injuries he'll have to overcome to become one of the greats.

Which is another reason I believe one of the most important traits for an NFL RB is durability. The longer you can play and absorb hit after hit on every carry is one metric that separates the good from the great.

I feel the same way about this generation of WRs. After the obvious top 10 guys, active and retired, are sorted out, I don't see ANY under-25 WRs who look like potential alltimers.
The question has to be asked on a couple guys...

Curtis Martin? 14,101 career rushing yards for 4th all time, 100 TDs and another 3,329 yards receiving

Edgerrin James? 12,246 career rushing yards for 11th all time, 91 TDs, and 3,364 yards receiving

Edgerrin James is a no... his 1st 2 years were absolutely incredible, but he kind of flamed out after that and became very average.

Curtis Martin on the other hand is a very tough call... he was pretty consistent throughout his career, did everything pretty well, but he only averaged 4 yards per carry throughout his career. He may get in, but it will be in a lean year down the road
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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this thread is lacking some serious Ray Rice.
and Jeff Feagles
I would get serious thought to Feagles. One of the best directional punters.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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You really think there's a serious possibility that Adrian Peterson, Chris Johnson, and Deangelo Williams are arguably the 3 greatest RBs in the history of the NFL??

Speculation too on my part, but NO WAY Deangelo Williams or Chris Johnson come within 3000 yards of those numbers.

Adrian Peterson is going to get seriously hurt, a leg injury I suspect, in the next 4 years, so IMO he'd be lucky to hit 13,000 - 14,000. Which would still get HIM into the HOF.

Of the three I have more faith in AD being the 'one'.

Deangelo Williams and CJ, practically impossible.
What? CJ just had 2000 yards last season. Peterson hit the wall hard last year and seemed very lost. In Johnsons last 8 games i think he was over 100 yards in all of them. There was no stopping him. Peterson has seen his YPC go down every season and only had 1 100 yard game after the bye week. With petersons running style of running through people his body will take a bigger beating opposed to CJ who does not take a lot of big hits.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Peterson hit the wall hard last year and seemed very lost.
We should all be as lost as Adrian Peterson. 1,819 total yards and 18 touchdowns. Um, yes, please.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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Who said those guys are necessarily "competing?" Due to the recent breakout of the passing game, this generation is bound to see an increase in the amount of receivers considered Hall-bound. It doesn't have to be only four or five players, we're literally witnessing (in the last decade) by far the most prolific passing/receiving decade ever. No need to fret of course, the amount of Running Backs that will be admitted to the Hall will undoubtedly be lower for the 2000-2010 period. Eventually, as the game continues to evolve, you'll see it's requirements (for the Hall) increase.

If Chad is sniffing around 1000 receptions and 15,000 yards he should be in, simple as that. That's three more productive seasons and two that may not be so productive but still have him in some sort of role. For a five year stretch from 2003-2007 he was consistently among the 3-5 most productive receivers in football and though you may have never thought he had the talent (to be a top 5 receiver in the best receiving generation ever,) he still produced as if he did. Whether you'd have agreed with it or not, he was 1st Team All-Pro twice with those same guys playing in the NFL. His personality surely won't get him in the Hall, but I wouldn't doubt his on-field accomplishments and what he has left in the tank. I'm not saying first ballot, of course, but taking into consideration a number of things I can't say that he has 'zero' chance.
I'd be willing to bet almost any amount of money that Chad won't end up anywhere close to 15,000 yards.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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Edgerrin James is a no... his 1st 2 years were absolutely incredible, but he kind of flamed out after that and became very average.
Two of his best seasons came in his sixth and seventh years in the league.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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I was wondering the other day if Josh Cribbs will be a hall of famer. He will most likely go down as the best kick/punt returner of all time and shatter most of the records, that being said... If the Browns don't ever put anything together and he is just a stat guy, do you think he will get in?

I believe if he shatters records at his position he deserves it, hall of fame needs to be a thing of individual achievement not based on your team.
This thread is really getting out of hand.
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