HOF Ballot: You get one vote between these 2 guys

[BigDawg819]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

(stats are up-to-date, of course both expect to rack up more stats and they hope playoff & Super Bowl stuff)

Listening to Collinsworth and Florio this morning, talking about off-field issues being a factor for HOF voters, I thought this would be a great poll here and I don't see this debate anywhere else here....... your thoughts, and cast your one vote.

TERRELL OWENS
14 seasons
1,006 catches
14,951 yards
144 TD catches
3 TD runs
9 1,000-yard seasons
8 seasons with 10+ TDs
1 Super Bowl loss, played great in game

-Was selfish and caused problems for more than 1 team, but worked hard and had no run-ins with the law.
-Worked hard on field, never quit on the field, trained hard, but was too passionate on the field at times, b*tching at Garcia and McNabb and killing them in the media.
-Generally, I believe, a decent person off the field.

RANDY MOSS
12 seasons
926 catches
14,465 yards
148 TD catches
10 1,000 yard seasons
9 seasons with 10+ TDs
rookie record of 17 TD catches
all time record of 23 TD catches in 2007 season
had over 1,000 yard receiving his first season with Oakland (wow)
1 Super Bowl loss, played okay-well in game

-Was moody, quitting on both the Vikings and Raiders at times, even walking off the field before Viking @ Redskin game had ended
-Gave no effort in Oakland, although that team was a black hole
-Never involved in any serious off-field issues aside from the minor run-in with the police officer in Minnesota (straight cash homey)
-Generally, I believe, a decent person off the field.

Neither guy is gangster or criminal like a Vick, Jamal Lewis, Lawrence Phillips, etc. but both guys have serious issues that will be of concern to some voters, based on things I heard this morning on DTV channel 101, and listening to Peter King and Chris Mortenson over time.

You get one vote, who do you vote for?

As comparison, here are Marvin Harrison's stats and Michael Irvins, who is in.
Wow, seeing how good Marvin's stats are relative to Moss and Owens, I have to add him in !

IRVIN
12 seasons
750 catches
11,904 yards
65 TD catches
7 1,000-yard seasons
2 90+ catch seasons
3 Super Bowls, played great in games

HARRISON
13 seasons
1,102 catches
14,580 yards
128 TD catches
4 100+ catch seasons
2 90+catch seasons
8 1,000-yard seasons (consecutive)
8 10+ TD seasons (consecutive)
Won 1 Super Bowl, can't remember how he played in that game (some help)

-During career, was quiet as a mouse off the field and on the field. Caused no problems.... after career ended, may have murdered someone, still ongoing investigations.

Since when? Irvin is in the HOF, LT is, I could go on but the HOF is about on the field production plain and simple.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by BigDawg819

Since when? Irvin is in the HOF, LT is, I could go on but the HOF is about on the field production plain and simple.

Each voter is human, and each has a different opinion about off-field issues, beit PEDs, other drugs, arrests, attitude, treatment of media, whatever.

Some voters think McGwire deserves to be in still, some don't.

Voters are people and no two people think exactly the same about those types of issues, even though they are supposed to only judge the on-field work, you know some factor in the player as a person.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

TERRELL OWENS
14 seasons
1,006 catches
14,951 yards
144 TD catches
3 TD runs
9 1,000-yard seasons
8 seasons with 10+ TDs
1 Super Bowl loss, played great in game

RANDY MOSS
12 seasons
926 catches
14,465 yards
148 TD catches
10 1,000 yard seasons
9 seasons with 10+ TDs
rookie record of 17 TD catches
all time record of 23 TD catches in 2007 season
had over 1,000 yard receiving his first season with Oakland (wow)
1 Super Bowl loss, played okay-well in game

IRVIN
12 seasons
750 catches
11,904 yards
65 TD catches
7 1,000-yard seasons
2 90+ catch seasons
3 Super Bowls, played great in games

HARRISON
13 seasons
1,102 catches
14,580 yards
128 TD catches
4 100+ catch seasons
2 90+catch seasons
8 1,000-yard seasons (consecutive)
8 10+ TD seasons (consecutive)

Lynn Swann is in. He made a few circus-highlight reel catches in big game Super Bowls as part of the dynasty Steelers title teams.
Here's Swann's career stats, per Florio's column today.

Swann finished with only 336 catches and 5,462 yards. He scored a scant 51 touchdowns, an average of fewer than six per season.

His total catches don't even rank in the top 250 all time, per Pro-Football-Reference.com.

[boknows34]

Originally Posted by BigDawg819

Since when? Irvin is in the HOF, LT is, I could go on but the HOF is about on the field production plain and simple.

Yep, Peter King, one of the 44 voters for the HOF, has mentioned numerous times in his MMQB mailbag that the Pro Football HOF tells the voters not to consider any off-field issues when making their selections.

Randy Moss was also my choice here. He was simply unstoppable in his prime.

[Brent]

I have Owens as a close second to Moss. Maybe it's the memories of his time in SF before he was run out of town, but his 3 year run from the 2000-2002 season was unreal. He was unstoppable.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

Lynn Swann is in. He made a few circus-highlight reel catches in big game Super Bowls as part of the dynasty Steelers title teams.
Here's Swann's career stats, per Florio's column today.

Swann finished with only 336 catches and 5,462 yards. He scored a scant 51 touchdowns, an average of fewer than six per season.

His total catches don't even rank in the top 250 all time, per Pro-Football-Reference.com.

Swann played in a totally different era, mostly during 14 game seasons. It's his performance in the playoffs/SBs that established his mark on the game.

In 3 SB wins, Swann had 16 catches, 354 yards and 3 TDs.

Don't forget it took Swann 13 years as a finalist to be voted into Canton.

[descendency]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Swann played in a totally different era, mostly during 14 game seasons. It's his performance in the playoffs/SBs that established his mark on the game.

Completely agreed. Comparing eras is stupid.

Broadway Joe Namath, if compared to a QB today, would be JaMarcus Russell who is obviously not Canton bound.

The WCO and rule changes made football a higher scoring game. It's just that simple.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

To be fair, both Moss and Owens are going to be elected to the Hall, very likely in their first appearance on the ballot.

If I had to pick one, it's Moss and I don't think twice about it. He's the most dominant in NFL history since Hutson. They're both going in though.

Harrison is a whole other matter.

edit -

Oh, and hey: stop bringing up guys like Namath and Swann as statistical examples of anything. Even compared to their own eras, they aren't HOF'ers based on how they produced in their NFL careers. They're not even close. That said, they're hugely important to their respective eras of football and the story of the NFL can't be told without them. They deserve to be in the Hall, but not because of a career-long statistical production. Anyone who uses them as a stastistical watermark is missing the point entirely.

[Shiver]

I voted Terrell Owens because I believe he should be a no-brainer, lead pipe lock Hall of Famer. Randy Moss probably would be my first pick, but I knew he'd be everyone's first pick here. Terrell Owens was just as good when they were in their prime together.

[njx9]

so, given that the hall is likely to continue only taking 2-3 wrs per generation, who's the 3rd from this generation? unless owens or moss does something unforgivably stupid, i don't see how either doesn't get in by the second ballot, and that's only if the voters want to send a message.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

How are you arriving at the 2-3 per generation mark? I wasn't aware that was even an historical trend.

I'm not sure there will be a third. Guys like Harrison, Bruce, Holt, and Smith kinda can't have a case made for them without making a case for everyone else in that same statistical area.

We'll probably see Chris Carter and Tim Brown make it in the next couple years and then Moss and Owens would appear to be the next guys in line. No one else appears to be worth it.

[Complex]

how is it even close between Marvin Harrison and T.O.? Marvin never showed up in the playoffs, him and Peyton are so overrated

[FUNBUNCHER]

Don't be shocked if some voters refuse to vote in Randy Moss and T.O. on the first ballot; it's not right but I believe there are voters that will hold their personalities against them.

About the next crop of WRs IMO who are Canton bound, Chris Carter has gotta be in there next, Andre Reed at some point and I just know there are voters who are gonna give Tim Brown a ton of love.

Of the group of WRs including Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Steve Smith and Chad Ochocinco...Harrison and Bruce are near locks, ( maybe not first ballot, but I can't imagine they will be in their late 50s without a bust in Canton), Torry Holt will have to wait a LOONNGG time, if ever, and Smith and Chad haven't put together HOF careers yet.

Steve Smith is a great WR, but he doesn't match up career-wise with the modern HOF candidates.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

You'll have to explain to me how Bruce is a near-lock and Holt isn't.

[Splat]

I would not be shocked at all if both Randy Moss and T.O. miss out on being first ballot be it right or wrong.

That said both will get in.

[Bengals78]

I have heard Chad is looking for properties in the Canton area....

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

You'll have to explain to me how Bruce is a near-lock and Holt isn't.

Just that I think Bruce will be given greater consideration for putting up better career numbers and playing 16 years in the NFL.

Holt's two 1600+ seasons are nearly unmatched, however.

[prock]

If Cris Carter can't get in on a second ballot, it will be hard for anyone to.

And about Culpepper, he was a good quarterback for a few years. His only issue was that he was a ******* moron. Once his knee went, so did his talent.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Just that I think Bruce will be given greater consideration for putting up better career numbers and playing 16 years in the NFL.

Holt's two 1600+ seasons are nearly unmatched, however.

Right. Better career numbers in 5 more seasons than Holt (to date, anyway). It's kinda hard to be impressed by marginally better career numbers when Bruce played 50 more games than Holt has.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

How are you arriving at the 2-3 per generation mark? I wasn't aware that was even an historical trend.

a near as i can tell, that's the trend for all the skill positions. there are a few aberrations, but i sincerely doubt that, in 20 years, anyone would think this was that kind of generation. there were a couple of special players, and a bunch of good players.

either way, of your wideouts, you have:

monk, lofton and largent from the mid to late 80's generation. irvin and rice from the 90's, and i'd hope carter soon. stallworth, swann, joiner and warfield from the 70's. i'd hope it's clear that i'm generalizing the generations, but there are roughly 3 players from each mini-era of football at almost every skill position. this is why it's ridiculous to me when people do the "who's a hall of famer" threads and list half of the current good players. they're not all all-time best players. and even if we use the imo silly 'story' argument, does anyone actually think marvin harrison, for instance, needs to be mentioned in the history of the nfl? he was a great wr, but he was simply not on a moss/owens (and i ******* hate owens) level, ever.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Harrison stands about as good a chance as anyone behind Moss and Owens to "Art Monk" his way into the Hall. Personally, I'd just as soon just let Moss and Owens in. They're the only ones who clearly deserve it.

[J-Mike88]

You guys see a chance for Andre Johnson or Fitzgerald?
To me, it seems that it pretty much takes Super Bowls to get guys in like them..... see Lynn Swann.

Didn't Drew Pearson ever make it?
Did Andre Reid ever get in?

[FUNBUNCHER]

IMO, there is no deeper skill position of potentially worthy HOF candidates that the WR position.

The dilemma the HOF is facing in determining which WRs will/will not get in would be like having a dozen RBs with 13700 career rushing yards and 100 TDs, Canton worthy numbers alone, so how do you decide ultimately who goes in??

If Jim Kelly and Thurman THomas are in the Hall, I don't know how you can keep Andre Reed out forever.

As for Larry Fitz and Andre Johnson, there both about halfway there IMO.
It helps a WR immensely to be regarded as the best, or one of the best, at your position during your prime, instead of people having to look back over your career and determining that you were 'great' after the fact.

[yourfavestoner]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

If the refs ever had the balls to call a pass-interference call on the Pats, Harrison's playoff numbers would be dramatically different.

You mean the same Pats secondary that TO ran roughshod over two weeks later in the Superbowl (with a broken ankle)?

[nepg]

The football HoF is just as much about personalities and performances as it is about pure numbers. It's not like Cooperstown, which is pure numbers.

Owens and Moss were clearly the best in their generation. Moss's pure talent is clearly better than Owens. I doubt many people will even think about how he dogged it in Oakland when it's all said and done. He's going to have a monster season this year, and has 3-5 years left. He'll get the TD record, and get close to Rice's other numbers.

It's tough to tell where Owens is headed for the rest of his career. I guess we'll know after this year.