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View Poll Results: Were the Lions robbed of a win?
Yes 52 50.49%
No 6 5.83%
Not sure 0 0%
It was the right call, but don't agree with the rule. 18 17.48%
It was the right call, but they need to change the rule 18 17.48%
The refs should have used common sense 9 8.74%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-13-2010, 05:42 PM    (permalink
Monomach
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Originally Posted by XxXdragonXxX View Post
I've seen a receiver catch the ball, get 1 (ONE) foot down, then get clobbered and the ball flies out. It's ruled a TD.
In college, maybe.




As for me, I think:
a) the intent of the rule is absolutely ********
b) the wording of the rule is even more ********

Can the call be considered correct, as per the rule? Yes. The wording is stupid and allows for that catch to be ruled no good. Did the Lions deserve the win? Yes.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have control of the ball in the endzone while both of your feet touch the ground, you get a touchdown. The NFL doesn't agree with me.

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Old 09-13-2010, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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The play looked like something from a Buffalo Wild Wings commercial.

****** call, Ref should end himself.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam View Post
It was ruled correctly, the rule just is vague and not great to begin with. It is a TOUGH rule to word. If you change the nature of the rule there be a lot of "non-catches" considered catches.
It was not ruled correctly. That's what's really grinding my gears is that they put out the rule and just expected people to hate the rule, but accept the ruling. They got it wrong even by the most ******** interpretation of the rule.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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njx, u need to look at Article 7

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"A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds. To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet completely on the ground inbounds or any other part of his body, other than his hands, on the ground inbounds. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, there is no possession. This rule applies to the field of play and in the end zone."

Note 1 on this rule reads:

"A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball (with or without contact by a defender) must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, it is a catch, interception or recovery."
he clearly didnt have it once he fell down and after he touched the ground.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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but in this case they are debating the process of the catch since he is going down, once he is falling he has to have till the very end. he loses it at the very end
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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It took me one look at the replay to see it was a bad call.

It took me a second look to see that it wasn't just bad; it was obscene.


The rule doesn't matter because it's irrelevent. If that's the rule they gave to validate their call, then they completely bastardized it.

Calvin Johnson had complete possession of the ball in the endzone. He caught the ball with both hands, landed with both feet, and fell to the ground in bounds - never losing possession of it once. He hits the ground, and it's like the next thing is simultaneous - he's holding the ball with one hand (still has possession), his puts that hand down to the ground to brace himself/push himself up, and then when pushes up it looks like he squeezes it out. That's the issue, but it ignores the entire process before hand and the fact that's it the endzone.

At what point is the ball dead? It's the endzone - not midfield. You get possession of the ball in the endzone and the play is over at that second. He has control of it, he gets two feet down, and his body hits the ground. He rushes to get up to celebrate, and then he loses possession. That's like ruling a fumble when a RB gets tackled, hits the ground, and then flips the ball away as he hops up to go back to the huddle.

This was an enforcement call in it's simplest form. Moments after they ruled it incomplete, the announcers said, "We talked about this with the officials before the game today: the process is the key word." It was close enough, so they called it to enforce the rule.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam View Post
It was ruled correctly, the rule just is vague and not great to begin with. It is a TOUGH rule to word. If you change the nature of the rule there be a lot of "non-catches" considered catches.
It was not ruled correctly, and the rule is not vague. It's just ********. If it's so tough to word, then it shouldn't be a rule. This was a very simple play that happened in Detroit. Guy catches ball, guy has possession of said ball, guy maintains possession of ball when he falls down... TD. That's pretty ******* simple. About as simple as it gets.

The NFL survived quite some time without this ******** rule. And, right now, the NFL is considering catches, non-catches. Like Calvin Johnson's TD... "drop." The rule book defines it as a catch under 99% of the rules. Possession with both feet in bounds. Seems pretty simple to me.

This one rule deems the entire process of Johnson catching the ball, not a catch. When he catches the ball with both feet in bounds, the rule says that is not a catch. That's what the rule says, which then conflicts with every other rule that says it's a catch. It is a terrible rule. It was a terrible call. The refs got it wrong. The people who write the rules, got it wrong. Simple as that.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Looking at the replay, it all looks to be in one continuous motion. That seems to fall in line with what GOW was saying, and that interpretation of the rule. The entire process of falling down and putting his right hand on the ground was smooth, it didnt look like he landed, and then decided to push himself up with his right hand. It looked to me like his momentum kept him going and he rolled onto his hand.

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Old 09-13-2010, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Having control at one moment does not make it a catch - even in the end zone. Having possession does... You can physically catch the football but it's not a complete legal reception unless control is maintained throughout the entire process of falling to the ground.

If the act of catching the football forces someone to fall to the ground (which it clearly did), the player must maintain possession throughout that fall to the ground. The ground cannot cause a fumble, but it can cause an incompletion, which is what appeared to happen.

Based on the rule, it's the correct call. And the rule isn't stupid at all - think about it in terms of a diving catch... it's great to have the ball in mid-air, but the special part about it is maintaining possession as you hit the ground hard...
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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He had control of the ball in two of his hands, then one of his hands yes...controlling the ball at any given moment is not the issue at all though... it's whether or not he maintained possession as he hit the ground...
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Having control at one moment does not make it a catch - even in the end zone. Having possession does... You can physically catch the football but it's not a complete legal reception unless control is maintained throughout the entire process of falling to the ground.
Exactly, only Johnson had control of it as his body hit the ground. His left leg touched, then his right leg, then he fell and his butt and left thigh touch, and then as he rolled over the hand he was holding the ball with made contact with the ground. He had control of the ball the entire process of falling to the ground. The ball came out after he had fallen and was moving to get back up, which the refs declared was an extension of the catch which I don't think it is. Only Johnson is such a fluid athlete, it looks like it's all one motion.

Quote:
If the act of catching the football forces someone to fall to the ground (which it clearly did), the player must maintain possession throughout that fall to the ground. The ground cannot cause a fumble, but it can cause an incompletion, which is what appeared to happen.
Which is all true...if it wasn't the endzone. The endzone and midfield have different rules. Had Calvin Johnson made that catch at midfield, and no one touches him, that's an incompletion (or a fumble if you think transferring possession of a ball from two hands to one hand while turning your body the other direction counts as a "football move").

This can be argued for both sides, which is why I think it's purely an enforcement call for a new rule. And it's really a shame that they chose to do this when the outcome of the game would be decided by the call.

Quote:
Based on the rule, it's the correct call. And the rule isn't stupid at all - think about it in terms of a diving catch... it's great to have the ball in mid-air, but the special part about it is maintaining possession as you hit the ground hard...
A diving catch is different from this catch, so I think it's a bad example. In this catch, Johnson lands on his feet, then butt, then loses the ball as he rolls over to celebrate. In a diving catch, it's likely that the ball is gonna come as almost immediately after the rest of the player's body hits the ground. The timing is different, and in this instance, the diving catch is incomplete no matter what. It's just in this instance, it appears that Johnson shows numerous times that he has full possession of the ball and he could've been called down more than once by how many body parts he got down while displaying possession.


It's close though. I just feel the rule was used as an excuse to count the pass incomplete, rather than evidence.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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Looks like Calvin has finally spoke.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf..._huge_sho.html
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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The ball came out after he had fallen and was moving to get back up, which the refs declared was an extension of the catch which I don't think it is. Only Johnson is such a fluid athlete, it looks like it's all one motion.
Wow. I just saw it on NFL Network a few times in slow motion. He IS getting up to celebrate and you are 100% correct he just does it so fluidly that it does look like an extension of the catch... wow. That's insane. I totally understand where the officials are coming from because it's very easy to experience the play the way I initially did as well - it does look like an extension of the catch but I do admit, upon further review, it's actually him getting up. Wow.

I just wish he wasn't so damn worried about celebrating so quick. Guys are always throwing the ball away as SOON as they cross the goalline (or DeSean). Maybe this will be a wake-up call and they'll just HOLD ON AS LONG AS YOU CAN so nothing like this can even be an issue.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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I agree with the ruling. Not because I am a Bears fan, but because a reciever must have posession of the ball all the way through going to the ground. Someone mentioned a diving catch above, and I agree that the same type of ruling applies here. A guy can make a catch and have the ball roll out once he hits the ground...its not a catch. In this case, he let go of the ball too early.

It was a great catch, and I am not saying that it shouldn't be controversial, but Megatron has got to realize that you have to hold onto the ball the whole way through.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:42 AM    (permalink
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There's an ambiguity to the wording of this rule that needs to be eliminated. What Calvin Johnson made was a touchdown catch, but if there's any wiggle room in the rules that could mis-define that, it needs to be changed.

I don't think the ref made a good call, but the fact that he could have gone both ways on that ruling shows that the rule is crap.
I don't know if the rule is crap. The reality is no rule is ever going to cover all possible scenarios, so the best option is to bring the rule up to the point where it can be effectively governed while also using common sense.

The rule is fine in the sense a player should have to control the ball after hitting the ground. The rule shouldn't have to explicitly state "should the receiver hit the ground and control the ball fine initially, but then use the ball to to leverage himself off the ground and releases it in the process, the ruling is a catch". That's getting way too specific and then you only open up things to more interpretation and questions on why other obscure possibilities aren't covered.

The rule is open, like many others, so the ref can make a judgement call. Perhaps they could change it to say "unless otherwise determined by the ref that the player had reasonably proven possession by a combination of feet and initial ground contact before the ground caused the release of the ball", but this is already an implied part of the rule IMO.

If it wasn't, then how do they ever rule it a catch when the WR goes to ground in the end zone but doesn't let the ball touch the ground, and isn't downed by a defender? He hasn't yet proven the ball is so secure in his grasp that the ground can't lodge it out. Of course, common sense says after he gets both feet/elbow/knee down and the ground hasn't initially lodged the ball out, it's a catch, so it shouldn't have to specify this. To get more complex, it's possible on 2nd contact with the ground the ball could lodge out and it would really be a drop, so this comes back to the point of common sense - a rule can't easily cover both without basically saying "use your brain dude".

I see no way the rule can be rewritten so this outcome doesn't happen again, without creating another possible hole in the interpretation for another equally specific event. It would be entirely reactionary to this event in that sense, and offer no real progress on the rule's effectiveness as a whole. It *has* to come down to common sense, and the rule shouldn't have to specifically allow common sense to be applied, because it is an implied part of the game and rule book for any rule involving interpretation.

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Old 09-14-2010, 04:00 AM    (permalink
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Calvin's is not a catch, breaking the plane and having the ball punched out is a TD. The audacity of the "Tuck Rule" has been succeeded.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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except that they aren't really comparable at all, in that, in one case, the player is, you know, diving for the ball. i'm sure you'll let someone know when you've actually watched a replay before making further silly comparisons.
Ok, maybe I wasn't specific enough by what I had in mind in the example I provided.





My point is, I don't see a difference. They both look like catches whether they are diving or not.

Was it a catch? Yeah, but he knows he has to maintain possession of the ball while going to the ground.

In review of watching the play njx... it looked to me that part of him going to the ground was that extended lunge where he then hit the ball against the ground and lost posession. It sucks, bad officiating happens, but its part of the game.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-was-a-catch/
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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in an effort to decrease the number of "it was the right call based on the rules" (rules most people have likely never read because it's bloody well impossible to find the ******* rule book online), following is Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 from the 2010 NFL Rulebook:
The interpretation of the rule has been very clear, to the point where the head of officiating even says the player basically has to come up off the ground with possession.

Quoting the actual wording or any particular rule seems moot. We've seen the ruling enough times to know how it will be called upon review. Calvin ****** up, plain and simple. It sucks, b/c it does clearly look like he loses possession getting up after a great catch, but he didn't get up with the ball.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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The interpretation of the rule has been very clear, to the point where the head of officiating even says the player basically has to come up off the ground with possession.

Quoting the actual wording or any particular rule seems moot. We've seen the ruling enough times to know how it will be called upon review. Calvin ****** up, plain and simple. It sucks, b/c it does clearly look like he loses possession getting up after a great catch, but he didn't get up with the ball.
Well said!


Calvin screwed up by allowing the refs to become involved. I know you're excited, but catch the ball and hand to the ref then go celebrate. Don't show off, don't be fancy, just make the catch then do whatever on the sideline.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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there was a play monday night, that i wish i could find on youtube, where the player caught the ball going out of bounds, went to the ground, and dropped the ball before giving it to the official. it wasn't even mentioned as a possible review.
Just curious, did one of the receivers feet slide out of bounds before he went to the ground? If so, the play was over by the time he hit the ground and lost the ball. That would be the difference.

Then again, it's that kind of inconsistency that has people angry here. Anyone with common sense would call that final play a catch and a touchdown and would admit that had Calvin Johnson continued to grab the ball as he stood up instead of letting go of it, a purely aesthetic addition to the play in this case, would have yielded a completely different ruling. Considering that all it takes to score a rushing touchdown is the ball crossing the plane, it seems ridiculous to define "going to the ground" as still being a process after the player has maintained possession through his knee and hip hitting the ground (enough to rule the play dead on a running play, btw).

The refs had the right to make that call, but it was a crap call (just as with the tuck rule, there was flexibility in the verbiage to make that call even though it was a horrible call). The fault is inherent to the wording and it should be changed as soon as feasibly possible.
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