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Old 10-25-2010, 02:39 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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Originally Posted by Chucky View Post
Except Ryan got completely bailed out in the 9ers game by a ******* WR forcing a fumble on an INT
The fumble was recovered on the Atlanta 7. The Falcons then drove it all the way to the 49ers 25. Sorry, but you'll have to do better than conveniently trying to ignore that drive.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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The problem for you is that I will continue to be right about Ryan being better than guys like Cutler and Orton. When I point out a specific game, it's supporting the correct side of the argument.
Which doesnt mean you can be biased and only look at it from a Falcons fan point of view. Every QB has a couple of bad games, you cant just take a couple of bad games as the sole example for one QB and take a few good games for the other QB and make a fair comparison.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:46 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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Which doesnt mean you can be biased and only look at it from a Falcons fan point of view. Every QB has a couple of bad games, you cant just take a couple of bad games as the sole example for one QB and take a few good games for the other QB and make a fair comparison.
I didn't say they were the sole example. You're trying to say I said that because you can't argue what I actually say. They are simply examples that support the truth.

And don't try to act as if I'm being some kind of unreasonable homer. It's not like I'm saying Ryan is better than Peyton Manning. It's obvious to most people that Ryan is an above average starting QB and a step above guys like Orton.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:04 AM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan:
2010 stats thus far
Comp/Attempts 156/252 for 1,714 yards 12 Tds and 5 Ints

2009
Comp/attempts 263/451 for 2,916 yards 22 TDs and 14 Ints

Kyle Orton

2010 thus far
comp/attempts 167/276 for 2,140 yards 11 Tds and 4 Ints

2009
Comp/attempts 336/541 for 3,802 21 Tds and 12 Ints

Now I hate to just bring up stats when arguing but without a star WR this year to throw to Orton is still out producing Ryan (more yards, less interceptions right around the same amount of TDs), without a running game either. Now whats your argument for Ryan being better other then well Orton had a bad game and Ryan didnt hence forth, Ryan = better. And please stop just saying I am right, because you havent used any evidence to support your statement other then "well im on the right side of the argument".
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.

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Old 10-25-2010, 03:10 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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This isn't fantasy football. Orton has passed for more yards than Peyton Manning this year. Big deal.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:12 AM    (permalink
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I'm still waiting for to hear what exactly it is then as to why Ryan is better. Again, try posting some evidence of something other then just telling me im wrong.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:18 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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You want evidence? Ryan wins more, is clutch in the fourth quarter, and was never a throw in as part of a trade for Jay Cutler.

And since you like stats: Orton has completed 41% of his passes in each of the last 2 games. I can't even remember the last time Ryan was that inefficient with his passing.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Orton was also playing against two of the better defenses the last two games, so any QBs completion percentage is going to drop. Even with two games of 41% he still is tied with Ryan for completion % for the season. And more Clutch in the fourth Quarter, like that time he threw a pick in the San fran game and got bailed out by White and then Atlanta kicked a field goal to win it? Hmmmm, so any QB who was ever traded is basically bad right? They might be even worse if a team just lets them walk by that standard, so hence forth, Drew Brees....Not very good.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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lol at people saying Cutler is better than Matt Ryan...

Yeah, I know it's just one week, but do you still feel that way?
Honestly? Yeah, I still think Cutler is a better QB than Ryan, but I also feel that Cutler is one of the most talented QBs in the NFL and if he had an OL and dependable running game, much less a star WR and All-time Great TE, he would be producing among the best in the game and everyone would have a different impression of him. Getting beaten up everyday with a non-existent running game and a bunch of complimentary receivers he looks a lot worse.

Still I'm taking him over Ryan, because he can really zip his passes into incredibly tight windows when he has time, when he's on his deep ball is one of the deadlist in the league. He's also really tough, say what you will about that stupid face he makes and the douche monger he may be off the field, but the guy has gotten beaten up on a lot of bad teams going back all of the way to his college career. That takes a strong mind to keep getting up, to keep taking those hits and to not become yet another Captain Checkdown.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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I didn't say they were the sole example. You're trying to say I said that because you can't argue what I actually say. They are simply examples that support the truth.

Yeah i know its not like you totally ignored when i blew up your bs 'hes on a longer contract = hes better' argument.

you are absurdly hypocritical.

Ryan had a better game playing against a worse team. The entire broncos team looked horrible in their game, not just orton exclusively.

for the year theyve played about even. Orton hasnt had any great late game plays (that come to mind anyway) and ryan did have a drive but it also came after he blew the game and was given a second chance on a very badass play from roddy white while playing the helpless 49ers.

And my original argument was that you said: Cutler, Orton, etc arent as good as ryan and if you argue different youre clearly wrong. I said it was certainly arguable as i said i think orton had clearly outplayed him until these last two weeks now and its starting to even out a little bit, which you changed to the contract thing somehow that i proved to be incredibly inept that you immediately ignored.

so if youre gunna play the 'youre ignoring my argument card because you cant dispute it' card maybe you should start responding to the crap arguments you brought up then conveniently left.

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Old 10-25-2010, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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Its actually ridiculous how effective of a situation Ryan is in. He has a Top 5 WR, the best TE of all time, a stud RB and a pretty solid offensive line. If you ask me, he should be doing more then he is for that team. That said, they are winning games but it isn't like he's taking the team on his back and making huge plays. He's a solid starting QB, but I don't think Im alone when I say that people were expecting more Tom Brady and less Matt Hasslebeck, who he reminds me of right now.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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The fumble was recovered on the Atlanta 7. The Falcons then drove it all the way to the 49ers 25. Sorry, but you'll have to do better than conveniently trying to ignore that drive.

And you need to do better than conveniently ignoring that the game was over until Roddy bailed him out and gave him a second chance, since, you know he blew the first one and got picked.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Its actually ridiculous how effective of a situation Ryan is in. He has a Top 5 WR, the best TE of all time, a stud RB and a pretty solid offensive line. If you ask me, he should be doing more then he is for that team. That said, they are winning games but it isn't like he's taking the team on his back and making huge plays. He's a solid starting QB, but I don't think Im alone when I say that people were expecting more Tom Brady and less Matt Hasslebeck, who he reminds me of right now.
This except the bolded. i dont even want him to carry the team, he can do the young brady and carry the team when they need him and just play simple mistake free football until those moments, but he doesnt he tries to make too many plays i feel like sometimes and not just take what they give him.

Hes played well, but I thought he was Tom Brady 2.0 or another Eli in the making when he came out and at times hes really looked like it (as Halsey said hes been clutch) but he misses some throws and just hasnt quite put it all together yet. Just watching him the accuracy isnt quite what youd expect and gets very spotty at times.

Id still take him over Flacco, like i said before, but i certainly think its VERY arguable with the other middle of the pack qbs.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Its actually ridiculous how effective of a situation Ryan is in. He has a Top 5 WR, the best TE of all time, a stud RB and a pretty solid offensive line. If you ask me, he should be doing more then he is for that team. That said, they are winning games but it isn't like he's taking the team on his back and making huge plays. He's a solid starting QB, but I don't think Im alone when I say that people were expecting more Tom Brady and less Matt Hasslebeck, who he reminds me of right now.
He may be Matt Hasselback right now, but I think it's not absurd to think he will become a slightly less effective with the deep ball Eli Manning. Which as has been shown is more than enough to become a perennial playoff team that has everything come together one of those years and wins a superbowl.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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I hope you guys know that just because Tony G is an all-time great TE, doesn't mean he still is one.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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I hope you guys know that just because Tony G is an all-time great TE, doesn't mean he still is one.
I'm actually pretty sure that if Tony G is an all-time great TE, that means that he's an all-time great TE. He may not be the same player he once was, but he's really smart and I'd still probably take him over Olsen.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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I'm actually pretty sure that if Tony G is an all-time great TE, that means that he's an all-time great TE. He may not be the same player he once was, but he's really smart and I'd still probably take him over Olsen.

Yeah, I didn't word that well at all. I meant to say still isn't a great TE now. He's really best served as a decoy/inside the 10 threat at this point. His speed is pretty much shot, and his hands haven't been great at all this year. He's a valuable target for 3rd and not too far/goaline area where he can just sit down in front of someone, but he's really not going to do anything all that explosive at this point.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Tony Gonzalez is no better than Todd Heap at this point in their careers. He has lost a step and a half. The Ravens have a better line, equal at TE and RB (though in this context Ray Rice helps the passing game much more than Turner.) The only category that the Falcons are better than the Ravens at is Roddy White, but let's not act as if Anquan Boldin is a chump. Plus Mason and Houshmandzadeh kick Michael Jenkins and Harry Douglas' asses.

Oh and Matt Ryan is 7th in yards, has a 12:5 TD/INT ratio and the Falcons are atop the NFC Standings.

May not be better than Eli Manning? He is already much better than Eli was at this point in their careers. He is doing better than Eli Manning this year. WTF

In conclusion:

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Old 10-25-2010, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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Love you Shiver.
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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I just got off work. I was in a mood. :-p
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
Now I hate to just bring up stats when arguing but without a star WR this year to throw to Orton is still out producing Ryan (more yards, less interceptions right around the same amount of TDs), without a running game either. Now whats your argument for Ryan being better other then well Orton had a bad game and Ryan didnt hence forth, Ryan = better. And please stop just saying I am right, because you havent used any evidence to support your statement other then "well im on the right side of the argument".
Kyle Orton has 1 less interception than Ryan, but in that case, he has 'less interceptions' whereas when Ryan has 1 more TD than Orton he has 'around the same TDs?' Good job trying to hide your bias and the fact that Orton has 24 more attempts.

The reason Matt Ryan doesn't put up magical numbers like Kyle Orton is because he doesn't have an offensive genius that uses the spread uber effectively like Josh McDaniels. The Falcons are a power running team that is held back by the predictability and lack of creativity by the OC Mike Mularkey. Watch a Falcons game and you will see the same curls and outs day in and day out and lack of shots downfield (the latter has been improving). Sometimes they work (usually at home, when michael turner is going) and sometimes they don't (away games...). If the Falcons had a Josh McDaniels or Sean Payton at helm and were throwing the ball 40 times a game (with 34 of those passes coming from shotgun), then ya, Ryan is gonna have different, and probably more inflated numbers. It's not like he isn't capable of doing it either; he threw for 4500 yards at BC with **** talent around him.

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Orton was also playing against two of the better defenses the last two games, so any QBs completion percentage is going to drop. Even with two games of 41% he still is tied with Ryan for completion % for the season. And more Clutch in the fourth Quarter, like that time he threw a pick in the San fran game and got bailed out by White and then Atlanta kicked a field goal to win it? Hmmmm, so any QB who was ever traded is basically bad right? They might be even worse if a team just lets them walk by that standard, so hence forth, Drew Brees....Not very good.
I don't think the 2 games of 41% is helping Orton's cause...Ryan's comp. % has been at a steady 62%-63% with anomalies of 54 and 57 coming during away games against a surprising Browns defensive unit led by Rob Ryan (you know, the one that picked off Brees 4 times in NO) and the always blitz happy Eagles. Orton's anomalies came at home against the Jets (Ryan completed 47% against the Jets in NY and came away with a W last year) and the Raiders (last time Ryan played in Oakland (2 years ago), he posted his career high QB rating with 134).

And no not clutch in 4th quarter when he threw an interception with less than 2 minutes ago. Clutch when he drove the Falcons 68 yards in 1:09 to win the game despite having one of the worst games I've seen out of him as a Falcon.

That is what is great about Ryan that only Falcon fans can appreciate and isn't available in the comp.% or # of TDs and interceptions. Oh wait...it is.

25-12 since starting as a rookie and a 16-1 home record. Not bad for having a defense that currently ranks 24th in yards allowed, and finished 21st and 24th in 2009 and 2008, respectively. And that's why Ryan > Orton.
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:02 AM    (permalink
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Orton is better than Ryan because he can put up the same kind of numbers with lesser talent. Roddy White is amazing, Michael Turner is a beast, but neither stacks up to BRANDON LLOYD!!!
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 10-26-2010, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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*shrug* He's not better than Eli yet and just because he's ahead of Eli's pace now doesn't mean he'll ever surpass Eli. You should know that, I mean is Big Ben better than Peyton because he had a better rookie year? No, because he still has to make the developments that Peyton did, could he still make them? Sure, but it's not some sort of guarantee just because he started better.

I like Matt Ryan but he doesn't have a deep ball that comes even close to Eli's and he doesn't carry his offense as effectively as Eli, now could Ryan develop to match Eli in those areas? Of course, but we don't know if he will or won't until he does.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Tony Gonzalez is no better than Todd Heap at this point in their careers. He has lost a step and a half. The Ravens have a better line, equal at TE and RB (though in this context Ray Rice helps the passing game much more than Turner.) The only category that the Falcons are better than the Ravens at is Roddy White, but let's not act as if Anquan Boldin is a chump. Plus Mason and Houshmandzadeh kick Michael Jenkins and Harry Douglas' asses.

Oh and Matt Ryan is 7th in yards, has a 12:5 TD/INT ratio and the Falcons are atop the NFC Standings.

May not be better than Eli Manning? He is already much better than Eli was at this point in their careers. He is doing better than Eli Manning this year. WTF

In conclusion:

Umm....now I'll be the first to admit that Eli could be having a better year (INTs are way too high, even though more than half went off his WRs hands), but he's 6th in the league in yards and 1st in TDs.

And has a better completion % I believe. If you want to say Ryan is having a better 3rd year than Eli did, I won't argue that. But he's not having a better year than Eli this year.

I just don't like that arm on Ryan. Seeing that one bomb pass to Roddy, its like he had to put everything he had in that throw, and it was a lollipop in a dome.

He's good, don't get me wrong, but there's limitations in his game that I just don't like.
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Ryan's deep ball is a real problem...
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