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Old 12-13-2010, 06:18 PM    (permalink
niel89
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Usually, I'd say it's a good thing when you don't notice a CB. Either Polamalu or Revis playing at his best is a game changer and does whatever's asked of his position, so I don't really see the point in comparing the two. Apples and oranges.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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This one is tricky. Main reason I give it to Troy is because you can take Revis out of the game. Just throw it to other people.

You can't take Poly out of the game. He is literally all over the field. Lines up to rush. Covers the slot. Covers the TE. Covers the RB. Plugs up running lanes. Covers #1's. He can do it all and he does all in one game. It is ridiculous. And his range is only second to Reed that I have seen play.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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And Revis will take your best WR out of the game with him. Id take Revis over Troy P or Reed any day of the week.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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I think you guys are forgetting the league we are in now-a-days. Where most teams line up in 3 & 4 WR sets A LOT. So what if the best guy is covered if the other 2-3 can get open??

Reed and him just sitting back there waiting for you to make a mistake?? Poly just making plays?? Both of them all over the field?? Revis just to one side and easily avoidable?? Reed and Poly please.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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And Revis will take your best WR out of the game with him. Id take Revis over Troy P or Reed any day of the week.
Taking away a team's #1 receiver is overrated sometimes. If your opponent has good #2 and #3 receivers or you have a crappy #2 corner, then it doesn't really matter. Like someone mentioned, he was rarely targeted by the Patriots last week but Brady still **** all over the Jets defense. What kind of impact did Revis really have on the game? Tom Brady threw for 326 yards and 4 TD instead of 400 yards and 5 TD? Same thing happened last year in the playoffs against the Colts. Revis shut out Reggie Wayne, so Manning just ignored him and abused the Jets other defensive backs for nearly 400 yards
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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Taking away a team's #1 receiver is overrated sometimes. If your opponent has good #2 and #3 receivers or you have a crappy #2 corner, then it doesn't really matter. Like someone mentioned, he was rarely targeted by the Patriots last week but Brady still **** all over the Jets defense. What kind of impact did Revis really have on the game? Tom Brady threw for 326 yards and 4 TD instead of 400 yards and 5 TD? Same thing happened last year in the playoffs against the Colts. Revis shut out Reggie Wayne, so Manning just ignored him and abused the Jets other defensive backs for nearly 400 yards

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Old 12-13-2010, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather have Eric Berry than both..wait i do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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The Jets getting torn up in the secondary by QB's that just avoided Revis was also a function of the inability of the team to get pressure on the opposing QB. When the Jets' rush doesn't get there it's a lot easier to tear apart the secondary and avoid Revis. Like PL said it depends how good other receivers besides the #1's on a given team are. Corners can't cover forever, and against those elite QB's if you give them a little time and don't get in their face they'll absolutely rip you up. Scheming only goes so far for the Jets, overall talent on that side of the football needs to improve.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by terribletowel39 View Post
I think you guys are forgetting the league we are in now-a-days. Where most teams line up in 3 & 4 WR sets A LOT. So what if the best guy is covered if the other 2-3 can get open??

Reed and him just sitting back there waiting for you to make a mistake?? Poly just making plays?? Both of them all over the field?? Revis just to one side and easily avoidable?? Reed and Poly please.
Having played the safety position and CB position (although i only did in high school so i don't know if that counts as experience), I can tell you that a safety can't do jack in that situation either.

Safeties are at their best when they have good CBs in front of them. When you have no CBs in front of you, your contributions as a safety are minimal.

You take Revis over a Troy or Ed any day of the week.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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Safeties are at their best when they have good CBs in front of them. When you have no CBs in front of you, your contributions as a safety are minimal.
Pittsburgh and Baltimore both have average cornerbacks, yet Troy and Reed are both all-Pros.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Pittsburgh and Baltimore both have average cornerbacks, yet Troy and Reed are both all-Pros.
That's true. But both are also allowed to freelance. Not every coordinator would allow that.

If you play safety within the defense with crappy CBs in front of you, you're pretty much neutralized.

Troy and Ed get around that by just freelancing and gambling a lot. What goes unnoticed is how they both give up plays as a result of that, and how they both need another good disciplined safety next to them to help clean up their mess when they guess wrong.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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That's true. But both are also allowed to freelance. Not every coordinator would allow that.

If you play safety within the defense with crappy CBs in front of you, you're pretty much neutralized.

Troy and Ed get around that by just freelancing and gambling a lot. What goes unnoticed is how they both give up plays as a result of that, and how they both need another good disciplined safety next to them to help clean up their mess when they guess wrong.
I was under the assumption we were taking them in the systems they are currently in. With that being the case, Reed & Polamalu will both continue to be freelancing safeties. Yes, they give up big plays, occasionaly. But everyone does. No one doesn't ever give up anything. One-handed nonchalant catch right over Revis from Randy Moss?? And Troy and Ed are hardly ever at 100%. So don't play that card. After playing that long, you never are.

You are taking away the thing that makes Troy and Ed good. That is like saying the new coaching staff is not going to allow Revis to play man coverage. So he won't be near as effective any longer.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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I was under the assumption we were taking them in the systems they are currently in. With that being the case, Reed & Polamalu will both continue to be freelancing safeties. Yes, they give up big plays, occasionaly. But everyone does. No one doesn't ever give up anything. One-handed nonchalant catch right over Revis from Randy Moss?? And Troy and Ed are hardly ever at 100%. So don't play that card. After playing that long, you never are.

You are taking away the thing that makes Troy and Ed good. That is like saying the new coaching staff is not going to allow Revis to play man coverage. So he won't be near as effective any longer.
Even at their best, they aren't as good as Revis.

Revis is a true shut down CB. His impact will always be greater than theirs. As great as they are, and I'm a huge fan of both of those safeties, there's just no way they are more valuable than Revis.

If you were to poll all the GMs in football I bet 95% of them would tell you the same thing. CBs are more important than safeties. And we're comparing the best safeties to the best CB. CB wins that battle.

It's not like Revis is a scrub. He's the best CB in the game, and a true shutdown CB.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Having an elite CB lets you roll coverages the other way, that's why it's so important when a guy can take away a teams top weapon. A great QB will burn your team if you don't hit him even if you had Revis and Troy, but if you're getting a pass rush having a guy like Revis on one side lets you have your crappier second corner jam and give him safety help over top so that he can jam with more confidence. I'd still take an elite corner over a safety although personally I think DBs are secondary to a DL and would probably rather have Ngata alone than both of them together.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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A great example is last night's game.

What did Ed Reed do against Andre Johnson? Oh that's right, nothing. Bc he's a safety.

So Andre Johnson high stepped into the end zone for 9 catches, 140 yards, and 2 TDs.

What did Andre Johnson do vs the Jets?

4 receptions for 32 yards.

Welcome to Revis Island.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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A great example is last night's game.

What did Ed Reed do against Andre Johnson? Oh that's right, nothing. Bc he's a safety.

So Andre Johnson high stepped into the end zone for 9 catches, 140 yards, and 2 TDs.

What did Andre Johnson do vs the Jets?

4 receptions for 32 yards.

Welcome to Revis Island.
Or the Giants, before C-web broke out we had Ross capable of shutting down #2 WRs, so we'd put Ross out there one on one with the #2 and roll coverage over to the #1 WR. Then when Ross got banged up and C-web took over we did the same thing but going the other way. Sure a great Qb can still tear your secondary apart, but if you're getting a pass rush a CB gives you so much more as it gives you more freedom with your other DBs to help use their numbers to compensate for lesser ability. Yeah a guy like Troy will make big plays when your getting to the QB but a guy like Revis and what he lets you do with the rest of your secondary will do more to frustrate the QB and get him into a funk which will lead to more oppurtunities for big plays as the game wears on.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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A great example is last night's game.

What did Ed Reed do against Andre Johnson? Oh that's right, nothing. Bc he's a safety.

So Andre Johnson high stepped into the end zone for 9 catches, 140 yards, and 2 TDs.

What did Andre Johnson do vs the Jets?

4 receptions for 32 yards.

Welcome to Revis Island.
This makes no sense. Ed Reed wasn't man-to-man coverage against Andre Johnson, so using Johnson's stats vs. Baltimore's D and Revis is a horrid argument. Ed Reed has 50 career interceptions with an average return of 26.76 yards and six touchdowns and 107 pass breakups. Oh right, he's not doing anything because he's a safety. The Ravens have had one of the best defenses every year and Reed is a huge part of that. Aside from Ray Lewis, who's been the guy that has been there every year? Reed. Reed alters how offenses attack the Ravens. Look what happened in Philadelphia when Brian Dawkins left. The defense went to ****. But he's a safety, so how much impact could he really have had, right?
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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This makes no sense. Ed Reed wasn't man-to-man coverage against Andre Johnson, so using Johnson's stats vs. Baltimore's D and Revis is a horrid argument. Ed Reed has 50 career interceptions with an average return of 26.76 yards and six touchdowns and 107 pass breakups. Oh right, he's not doing anything because he's a safety. The Ravens have had one of the best defenses every year and Reed is a huge part of that. Aside from Ray Lewis, who's been the guy that has been there every year? Reed. Reed alters how offenses attack the Ravens. Look what happened in Philadelphia when Brian Dawkins left. The defense went to ****. But he's a safety, so how much impact could he really have had, right?
Your defense was fine last year without Dawkins. It went to the shitter this year when you lost Sheldon Brown and no longer had 2 good CBs.

The point in showing Johnson's stats is to exemplify how 1 can impact a defensive strategy more than the other. Bc Revis is able to shut down the primary target of the offense, in this case Andre Johnson, what you can do on defense in terms of playcalling dramatically increases.

As great as Ed Reed is, he cannot provide that kind of impact, bc he's a safety he's incapable of taking away an opponent's best weapon. How does he impact the Xs and Os of the game? He makes plays, but so does Revis. But Revis's ability to completely blanket a guy allows for more flexibility in your playcalling.

What does Ed do for your playcalling? All he can do from an X and O standpoint is allow for more single high safety looks. But Revis allows the same thing since you can leave him on an island.

Ed Reed is a playmaker who needs to physically make a play to have an impact. Revis is a playmaker who doesn't need to make a wow play to have an impact.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Your defense was fine last year without Dawkins. It went to the shitter this year when you lost Sheldon Brown and no longer had 2 good CBs.
The Eagles finished third in total defense in Dawkins' last year. They dropped to 12th the next year.

Pass defense: 3rd in '08, 17th in '09.

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As great as Ed Reed is, he cannot provide that kind of impact, bc he's a safety he's incapable of taking away an opponent's best weapon. How does he impact the Xs and Os of the game? He makes plays, but so does Revis.
If the opponent's best player is their QB, you better damn well believe Ed Reed can take that away.

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What does Ed do for your playcalling? All he can do from an X and O standpoint is allow for more single high safety looks.
That doesn't make a difference? That doesn't help the run defense? The short pass defense? The blitz options? Come on.

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Ed Reed is a playmaker who needs to physically make a play to have an impact. Revis is a playmaker who doesn't need to make a wow play to have an impact.
Disagree. Ed Reed makes you think twice about throwing the ball. You have to account for where Reed is before the snap every single time. Reed makes you re-think route combos and offensive strategy.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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one of the worst arguments I have seen in a while.
with that said troy makes plays and games for that matter.
Revis does what is asked of him.

Depends on scheme and opinion as to who is better or who you'd rather have on your team, mainly because they play different positions
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Revis makes a qb avoid 1 half of the field, allows you to play single high just like an impact safety would, allows you to blitz more just like an impact safety, all while shutting down the #1 WR of the offense. I really don't even see how this is debatable to be honest. Im taking Revis 10 out of 10 times.

You know how mediocre that Jets defense would be without Revis? They have no dline, no pass rushing OLBs, no safeties. They just have 2 good ILBs and 2 good CBs and Rex Ryan calling the defense.

With all due respect to Ed and Troy, they play around much more talent. That's why they can freelance to begin with.

And Im not saying Ed and Troy are bums, they clearly are studs, but Revis is no scrub himself, and I much rather build my defense around a true shutdown CB than a playmaking safety.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Revis makes a qb avoid 1 half of the field, allows you to play single high just like an impact safety would, allows you to blitz more just like an impact safety, all while shutting down the #1 WR of the offense. I really don't even see how this is debatable to be honest. Im taking Revis 10 out of 10 times.

You know how mediocre that Jets defense would be without Revis? They have no dline, no pass rushing OLBs, no safeties. They just have 2 good ILBs and 2 good CBs and Rex Ryan calling the defense.

With all due respect to Ed and Troy, they play around much more talent. That's why they can freelance to begin with.

And Im not saying Ed and Troy are bums, they clearly are studs, but Revis is no scrub himself, and I much rather build my defense around a true shutdown CB than a playmaking safety.
Nah, that was Nnamdi Aso. He makes you avoid 1 guy.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Revis makes a qb avoid 1 half of the field, allows you to play single high just like an impact safety would, allows you to blitz more just like an impact safety, all while shutting down the #1 WR of the offense. I really don't even see how this is debatable to be honest. Im taking Revis 10 out of 10 times.

You know how mediocre that Jets defense would be without Revis? They have no dline, no pass rushing OLBs, no safeties. They just have 2 good ILBs and 2 good CBs and Rex Ryan calling the defense.

With all due respect to Ed and Troy, they play around much more talent. That's why they can freelance to begin with.

And Im not saying Ed and Troy are bums, they clearly are studs, but Revis is no scrub himself, and I much rather build my defense around a true shutdown CB than a playmaking safety.
To be fair, the Steelers' defense was mediocre without Troy last year. You can say Aaron Smith all you want, but the Steelers have not missed a beat with him out of the lineup.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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A great example is last night's game.

What did Ed Reed do against Andre Johnson? Oh that's right, nothing. Bc he's a safety.

So Andre Johnson high stepped into the end zone for 9 catches, 140 yards, and 2 TDs.

What did Andre Johnson do vs the Jets?

4 receptions for 32 yards.

Welcome to Revis Island.
It's only a great example because it fits your argument.

Without Troy P and his impact, the Steelers might have lost the last 3 games, and one might argue, singlehandedly made game changing plays in crucial situations. Has Revis had a stretch, during his entire career, of singlehandedly putting a team into position to win a game they were initially losing?

Very few defensive players can do what Troy does on a weekly basis.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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It's only a great example because it fits your argument.

Without Troy P and his impact, the Steelers might have lost the last 3 games, and one might argue, singlehandedly made game changing plays in crucial situations. Has Revis had a stretch, during his entire career, of singlehandedly putting a team into position to win a game they were initially losing?

Very few defensive players can do what Troy does on a weekly basis.
Yes, but indirectly. Who knows what happens in the Texans and Lions game this year if Revis doesn't shut down their #1.

Calvin Johnson caught 1 pass for the 13 yards against the Revis. The Lions still managed to put up 20 points and only lost by a fg.

Andre Johnson caught 4 passes for 32 yards against Revis. The Texans still put up 27 points and lost by a fg.

If Revis doesn't shut down those guys, who knows what kind of numbers they put up. I would bet the Texans and Lions win those games if they got more production out of their #1 WR.
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