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Old 12-24-2010, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MNtoWA Guy View Post
If I am Zygi Wilf, or whatever GM/coach ends up in charge of the Vikings, I would definitely give the Broncos a 4th round pick for Orton. I also don't see Denver getting much more than this pick value, maybe a future 6th or 7th round choice, but nothing else in this year's draft. If Denver tries to get more than the Vikings 4th I could see them looking at someone like Shaun Hill as a 1-2 year stop-gap starter while we hopefully develop a young QB.
What are you talking about? Brett Favre is coming back next year. Enjoy!
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
not any farther from contention than the Chiefs were last year, and they're on track for an 11-5, AFC West Champion type season this year.
Eh, the Chiefs had a bunch of young talent ready to help take them to that level, particularly from that 2008 draft. The Broncos don't really have that many young players ready to break out, especially on defense. The talent isn't in place yet. They still need a couple of productive drafts before they can compete for a division title.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearfan View Post
I think somewhere between a 3rd and a 4th would be right. He isn't great, but he is a good solid QB. Never will be a superstar, but he will do everything you ask him to.

Though, we are all looking at how talented he is. 3rd/4th round value. The position he is at though...value increase? If your team needs a QB (Minnesota, SF, AZ), would trading a 2nd rounder for him be out of the picture? It would mean taking a solid QB who won't win you all that many games, but he sure as hell wont lose you a game. You know what you'll get with him too, Rather than depend on a rookie developing within the next few years and not knowing what you'll get.

If I'm the Vikes or Cardinals, I would definitely consider the trade. They have the right pieces in place to play some good football and if they draft a developmental guy to learn behind Orton...could make for a solid football team in the present, and in the future.
As a 49ers fan, I wouldn't mind getting the Kyle Orton that I've seen in Denver all this season. I think he's pretty decent. He's not going to be a megastar like you implied, but I do think he can win a game here or there if there is a decent team around him. I don't see him winning games by himself if the team is terrible...which I think is what is going on in Denver at this point. That being said, I would hope that if we did get Kyle Orton, we'd have a good coaching staff around him that will build a complete team so he doesn't have to throw the ball 600 times in a year. I wouldn't minding giving a 4th rounder for him for sure. A 3rd rounder probably.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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a QB that can give you 16 solid starts is only worth a 4th? He's worth a player + 3rd rounder at least.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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this. our last two idiot gm/coaches have left the entire team in absolute shambles. there is NOTHING to build off of on defense. i can't stress nothing enough. a high school JV team would give the broncos a better group of young players. and the offense is generally weak, too, although there are at least two talented players.

there's a near zero chance that denver is even competitive in the afc west in the next couple of years unless every other team either folds or suffers so many catastrophic injuries that they literally are playing a high school jv team.
I still think this is wrong. It happens every single year in the NFL. It's especially possible in the AFC West where it is ripe for the taking. It's not like there's a Pittsburgh, New England, Indianapolis, or Philadelphia in that division that is consistently good every single year. The Broncos have plenty of good talent: Moreno, Lloyd, Clady, Dumervil, Williams, Dawkins, Thomas, Gaffney, Graham, Harris, etc. They have the pieces in place to have a good offense if they can put it all together. Their defense played well early last year under Nolan, if they get Dumervil back and one or two more key defenders in place they can compete next year.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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I agree that his stats were a product of McDaniels offense. But there were times he did play well. He is worth a look for teams that need QBs next season. I wouldn't give up the house for him though.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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If a team will dish out a third for Whitehurst who has "potential" I don't see why Arizona or Minny won't deal a third for Orton, who, albeit not a superstar, you can win games with.

McDaniels' offense obviously inflated his stats, but even in his last year with the Bears you see that he was decent putting up similar numbers to Cassell (in Cassell's debut year with the Patriots). 18 TDs 12 INTs and a 58% completion percentage. Maybe not so much Arizona but a team like Minnesota if they commit to running the ball with the most talented back in the NFL (Adrian Peteson) can definitely find themselves back in playoff contention with a run-oriented, Kyle Orton-led offense.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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I still think this is wrong. It happens every single year in the NFL. It's especially possible in the AFC West where it is ripe for the taking. It's not like there's a Pittsburgh, New England, Indianapolis, or Philadelphia in that division that is consistently good every single year. The Broncos have plenty of good talent: Moreno, Lloyd, Clady, Dumervil, Williams, Dawkins, Thomas, Gaffney, Graham, Harris, etc. They have the pieces in place to have a good offense if they can put it all together. Their defense played well early last year under Nolan, if they get Dumervil back and one or two more key defenders in place they can compete next year.
The Broncos, like the Texans, can't put their defense together. Last year it was great the first eight weeks of the season, but after that it plummeted. And without Nolan this year the defense has gotten very bad.

Their offense is one-dimensional as well. They can pass the ball and move it, but they aren't scoring points. And it might be because they have no run game to speak off. Asking Orton to throw the ball 50 times a game is not going to work.
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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If a team will dish out a third for Whitehurst who has "potential" I don't see why Arizona or Minny won't deal a third for Orton, who, albeit not a superstar, you can win games with.

McDaniels' offense obviously inflated his stats, but even in his last year with the Bears you see that he was decent putting up similar numbers to Cassell (in Cassell's debut year with the Patriots). 18 TDs 12 INTs and a 58% completion percentage. Maybe not so much Arizona but a team like Minnesota if they commit to running the ball with the most talented back in the NFL (Adrian Peteson) can definitely find themselves back in playoff contention with a run-oriented, Kyle Orton-led offense.
We already traded our third for Randy Moss. God I hate the Vikings right now. Not that I want Orton as any long term replacement in any scenario anyhow.
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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We already traded our third for Randy Moss. God I hate the Vikings right now. Not that I want Orton as any long term replacement in any scenario anyhow.
Because Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck and Donovan McNabb are way better options, right? ;)
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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they are certainly equal options as well as Marc Bulger
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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this. our last two idiot gm/coaches have left the entire team in absolute shambles. there is NOTHING to build off of on defense. i can't stress nothing enough. a high school JV team would give the broncos a better group of young players. and the offense is generally weak, too, although there are at least two talented players.

there's a near zero chance that denver is even competitive in the afc west in the next couple of years unless every other team either folds or suffers so many catastrophic injuries that they literally are playing a high school jv team.
Bingo. The Chiefs turn around was faster than I(and most) people thought, but everyone saw that that team had the chance to contend in a couple of years. They had a ton of solid young kids on defense, Jamaal Charles, and a young QB who showed he can play and win games in this league. Right now, Denver has none of that, except a mid-career QB who has shown he can play and win games in this league. This team won't be a contender until Orton is like 30, maybe even older. There's simply nothing to build on here. Our future defensive outlook is Elvis Dumervil and maybe Robert Ayers. Everyone else is either too old to factor in the future of the team or not good enough.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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I still think this is wrong. It happens every single year in the NFL. It's especially possible in the AFC West where it is ripe for the taking. It's not like there's a Pittsburgh, New England, Indianapolis, or Philadelphia in that division that is consistently good every single year. The Broncos have plenty of good talent: Moreno, Lloyd, Clady, Dumervil, Williams, Dawkins, Thomas, Gaffney, Graham, Harris, etc. They have the pieces in place to have a good offense if they can put it all together. Their defense played well early last year under Nolan, if they get Dumervil back and one or two more key defenders in place they can compete next year.
Yeah it's not like there's a team that has won the AFC West 5 of the last 6 seasons and four in a row or anything.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Because Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck and Donovan McNabb are way better options, right? ;)
Orton's likely better than any of those guys right now. The only QB who might be on the market who is better as a short and long term solution is VY. Also Minnesota won't be looking for a long-term solution, there window is next year and maybe the year after that. They should draft a guy this year, let Orton play the season and then let him walk and let the young guy take over and rebuild around him.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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well denver and kansas city and oakland haven't put up much of a fight, but the chargers have consistently started slow and underperformed under Norv Turner. KC took advantage of the oppurtunity this year and Denver did for half of last season before crumbling to the dirt.
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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Orton's likely better than any of those guys right now. The only QB who might be on the market who is better as a short and long term solution is VY. Also Minnesota won't be looking for a long-term solution, there window is next year and maybe the year after that. They should draft a guy this year, let Orton play the season and then let him walk and let the young guy take over and rebuild around him.
I was, somewhat jokingly, listing Minnesota's other options because I still feel that they will try to "win now" with a veteran and forgo bringing in any kind of worthwhile young QB to develop.

They're fighting for a new stadium, and it'll be hard to convince the politicians necessary to give hundreds of millions of dollars to a rebuilding team.
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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We already traded our third for Randy Moss. God I hate the Vikings right now. Not that I want Orton as any long term replacement in any scenario anyhow.
Whoops forgot about that lol.
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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There won't be much of a market, if any. Bad teams want someone young with more upside. I can't think of a good team that Orton would make better or a mediocre team that Orton could elevate into the playoffs.

Nobody is going to pay $9.75M anyway. There would need to be an extension in place or Denver eating a bunch of the salary or taking back an extremely overpaid player.

The season he put together I could imagine 1 of the 31 teams out there would want him however, even if I think it's a horrible idea. He was leading the league in passing yards for a few weeks I believe. I'd put his price tag at a 2nd round pick.

Whenever I think of trading quarterbacks I think about Charlie Whitehurst and the 3rd round pick he got ... by that standard Orton should be a high first

Edit: on second thought, there might be a market out there for him such as the Vikings, Redskins, Bengals
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:12 PM    (permalink
BeerBaron
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There won't be much of a market, if any. Bad teams want someone young with more upside. I can't think of a good team that Orton would make better or a mediocre team that Orton could elevate into the playoffs.

Nobody is going to pay $9.75M anyway. There would need to be an extension in place or Denver eating a bunch of the salary or taking back an extremely overpaid player.
Ok, then you go and absolutely contradict yourself:

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The season he put together I could imagine 1 of the 31 teams out there would want him however, even if I think it's a horrible idea. He was leading the league in passing yards for a few weeks I believe. I'd put his price tag at a 2nd round pick.

Whenever I think of trading quarterbacks I think about Charlie Whitehurst and the 3rd round pick he got ... by that standard Orton should be a high first
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:15 PM    (permalink
Malaka
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Thinking more about it, I truly think Orton is perfect for Minny. He has experience in the area, conditions, and division since he was with the Bears. Moreover, with a run-heavy offense he can be just what the Vikings need to get back into contention. Screens to Harvin, and Rice being healthy are also nice pieces for Orton to work with when he is called upon to throw the ball.
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Orton's likely better than any of those guys right now. The only QB who might be on the market who is better as a short and long term solution is VY. Also Minnesota won't be looking for a long-term solution, there window is next year and maybe the year after that. They should draft a guy this year, let Orton play the season and then let him walk and let the young guy take over and rebuild around him.
We don't even have a window. The only players on our roster who we would need to win in this one or two year window is Hutch, Winfield, and Pat Williams (who's already too much of an old slob to do much at all anymore.) You can't make a run when you have a non-existant secondary and offensive line. Williams is done after this year anyway, Hutch has a couple more, and if we move Winfield to safety perhaps he can have a little bit more longevity. Trying to win with the team we have now would be utterly pointless because there's no chance of winning with the team we have now. We need to completely revamp the secondary and o-line, but first and foremost grab a quarterback in the 1st.
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Ok, then you go and absolutely contradict yourself:
well
1 I never said I agreed with it
2 I added conditions that would be set in place for it to happen
3 I went back and changed my mind after I thought about possible landing spots for him

so, looking back the thing I forgot to point out (and definitely should have) is that Orton played like a 2nd rounder, circumstances aside. I also should have noted that I was pointing out how dumb Seattle was, and that you can't discount that from happening again - I wasn't using that trade to judge his value

apologies for not being specific and having a wondering mind today
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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If you are Denver why would you trade Orton, when Tebow is not or have not proved himself as a starter or future franchice QB?
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:30 PM    (permalink
Malaka
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If you are Denver why would you trade Orton, when Tebow is not or have not proved himself as a starter or future franchice QB?
Because they don't plan on contending any time soon even with Orton at the helm. Plus, they pissed Orton off by benching him for Tebowzzz so he doesn't really want to be there any more either.
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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If you are Denver why would you trade Orton, when Tebow is not or have not proved himself as a starter or future franchice QB?
3 reasons:
1. Denver has shown no logic in personnel moves for a couple years now
2. They will have a new coaching staff, who knows what they will want to do
3. Tebow was a 1st round pick so to them they expect him to be a starter, although I have to refer back to 1 and 2 here
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