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Old 12-25-2010, 11:50 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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What if Vick owned a cattle farm??
Would people be OK with him electrocuting Bessie, causing cerebral hemorrhages by shattering the cow's skull, or slitting its jugular veins and allowing said cow to bleed to death, would people be less outraged because the cow would afterwards be harvested for beef products??

Dogfighting is NOT to the death, it's mainly a submission sport or when another dog quits fighting. Yeah it's too bad that Vick had no use for dogs that were unwilling to fight, but why isn't MV allowed to move on from the horrific mistake of dogfighting after serving his federally mandated time in prison??

Some of yall really need to come down South, where pitbulls and wild pig matches are all the rage.
IMO Jamal Lewis acting as a middle man for a cocaine deal is much worse than Vick's crime.

I like dogs.
But I LOVE my species more.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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I think that is great post. But I think to further punish Vick by excluding him from CBPotY and MVP for past crimes is wrong. He served his time and yes you should be able to win for coming back period. Being gone for two years in your prime in PRISON and then playing at a level we haven't seen since Randall Cunningham's MVP season is more than worthy.
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Old 12-25-2010, 12:16 PM    (permalink
Malaka
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I don't know about you guys, but Michael Vick was awesome at the beginning of the season; I thought he was untouchable.

But now he has quietly become so overrated that I cannot comprehend it. In the last 5 games he has thrown a pick in every single game, yes his stat line looks nice from the beginning of the season, but he just hasn't been as good since throwing that first pick.

As a player does he deserve the Comeback Player of the Year?

Well that depends on your definition of the Comeback Player of the Year same as how people define that an MVP must be on a winning team.

If your definition is ,loosely, any player out of football or insignificant the prior year who comes back to play at a very high level amongst his peers. Than yes Michael Vick is in fact the comeback player. Even though I believe he has recently been overrated, he still has won games for his team and even with the interceptions played well albeit not as great as everyone bleats. Combine that with his outstanding early season statistics he is the best player to make a "comeback."

On the other hand, If you believe comeback player of the year belongs to someone with an injury that debilitated them the year before or hindered their perfromance, then he is obviously not your man maybe someone like Osi (not sure if he qualifies this year though since he did have like 8 sacks last year) is your man then.

Unless there is a clear cut definition that I have no idea about then your choice is very subjective upon your belief on the definition of the award.

EDIT: Also enough with the strawman arguments in this thread, Vick did what he did and under the justice system of the United States he was found guilty and he served the sentence he was determined. There is nothing around it. He did it. It is done. It is over. Now he is back in the football league. This has nothing to do with Stallworth, or cattle, or Ray Lewis, or anyone else convicted of a crime. It's about Vick and the CPOTY.
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Old 12-25-2010, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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I don't know about you guys, but Michael Vick was awesome at the beginning of the season; I thought he was untouchable.

But now he has quietly become so overrated that I cannot comprehend it. In the last 5 games he has thrown a pick in every single game, yes his stat line looks nice from the beginning of the season, but he just hasn't been as good since throwing that first pick.

As a player does he deserve the Comeback Player of the Year?

Well that depends on your definition of the Comeback Player of the Year same as how people define that an MVP must be on a winning team.

If your definition is ,loosely, any player out of football or insignificant the prior year who comes back to play at a very high level amongst his peers. Than yes Michael Vick is in fact the comeback player. Even though I believe he has recently been overrated, he still has won games for his team and even with the interceptions played well albeit not as great as everyone bleats. Combine that with his outstanding early season statistics he is the best player to make a "comeback."

On the other hand, If you believe comeback player of the year belongs to someone with an injury that debilitated them the year before or hindered their perfromance, then he is obviously not your man maybe someone like Osi (not sure if he qualifies this year though since he did have like 8 sacks last year) is your man then.

Unless there is a clear cut definition that I have no idea about then your choice is very subjective upon your belief on the definition of the award.
Really now? He's doing so much to both open up the run game and cover for an absolutely porous defense. What he does for a team cannot, and never will be, measured by pure statistics. Did you not see that game against the Giants last week? That is just an downright unreal level of football.

I think a lot of people are selling what he's done short. He's not just coming back from prison. The guy was an absolute social pariah - amongst the most hated people in the entire country. Everyone - from media to fans to NFL people - began downplaying his impact and the value of what he did for Atlanta, calling him an average player who you could never win anything of significance with. Not only that, but he was bankrupt from people essentially stealing and imbezzling money from him.


What he's come back from is nothing short of incredible. Is it his fault he put himself in that situation? Sure. But how does he not deserve credit for everything he's overcome?
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Old 12-25-2010, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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honestly, when I thought people here couldn't get any dumber. I have read some of the dumbest bull **** ever.
Does he deserve Comeback player of the year? Yeah, i'll give him that. his level of play has been oustanding
Greatest comeback ever? get the hell out of here. Yea, he stopped brutally murdering animals, went to jail, and then came back to the NFL. he came back from his own stupidty? Not disrupting the natural order? This is just stupid.
And I swear, my IQ dropped a good 20+ points from reading funbuncher's post at the top of this page...and probably some from superman. dear lord.
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Old 12-25-2010, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Really now? He's doing so much to both open up the run game and cover for an absolutely porous defense. What he does for a team cannot, and never will be, measured by pure statistics. Did you not see that game against the Giants last week? That is just an downright unreal level of football.

I think a lot of people are selling what he's done short. He's not just coming back from prison. The guy was an absolute social pariah - amongst the most hated people in the entire country. Everyone - from media to fans to NFL people - began downplaying his impact and the value of what he did for Atlanta, calling him an average player who you could never win anything of significance with. Not only that, but he was bankrupt from people essentially stealing and imbezzling money from him.


What he's come back from is nothing short of incredible. Is it his fault he put himself in that situation? Sure. But how does he not deserve credit for everything he's overcome?
I didn't say he played terrible nor did I point out that specific game, I merely pointed out the last 5 games, in which he has thrown a pick in every single one.

I do not doubt his importance to the team, have you seen Kolb play? Vick is the MVP of the Eagles without a doubt.

If you read on I write that I would choose Vick as the CPOTY, his play at the beginning of the year combined with some solid play has him easily written in at the spot for me I was just elaborating on the only reason he shouldn't be the winner and that is the definition of the award.

Vick has played excellent but has still been overrated to a degree. He absolutely massacred my favorite team, I do not doubt that, but that has little relevance to the way everyone praises Vick. His play is not as good as it was before that is all I inferred and if you disagree you don;t have to look at the statline you can just look at the scores of Eagles' games they've slowly been getting closer, and not to mention a bad loss to the Bears.

I may dislike the Eagles, but I will not let that cloud my judgement. Vick is the Comeback Player of the Year in my honest opinion, but has recently become overrated in eyes of media and the fans.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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honestly, when I thought people here couldn't get any dumber. I have read some of the dumbest bull **** ever.
Does he deserve Comeback player of the year? Yeah, i'll give him that. his level of play has been oustanding
Greatest comeback ever? get the hell out of here. Yea, he stopped brutally murdering animals, went to jail, and then came back to the NFL. he came back from his own stupidty? Not disrupting the natural order? This is just stupid.
And I swear, my IQ dropped a good 20+ points from reading funbuncher's post at the top of this page...and probably some from superman. dear lord.
LOL!!

That's cool. You're not the first (or last) to go upside my head about being pro-MV.

But what bothered me the most about Vick's case is that dogfighting only became a federal offense in May 2007, Vick was charged in July 2007.

Just dumb ******* luck IMO.

Before then, especially in the South, it was a misdemeanor crime. You paid a fine and lost your dogs.
Up until the 1960s, dogfighting was a legally sanctioned sport by the United Kennel Club.
It's been historically one of the most popular underground sports throughout many rural states, and I always felt the gut level outrage was in part media driven.

WHat happened to PETA picketing any stadium where MV played??

And about equating the slaughter of livestock to dogfighting, there are hundreds of thousands of vegans who see no difference at all.

I only wondered morally if football fans saw a huge chasm of difference between the two, besides the fact that one is illegal and one is not, (unless you chose to slaughter and butcher a cow in your backyard!!).
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Are people really back to excuse making about Vick's crimes? If he did nothing wrong why did he keep it secret and then deny it for a long time? Seriously, just stop with the excuses. The mods should just ban that whole subject.
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Old 12-25-2010, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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i have ZERO problem with Vick coming back and his play has been absolutely MVP level. I'm not going to discredit that at all.
I won't go into how ****** up, sick and stupid dog fighting is...but Vick gets absolutely no sympathy for his brutal treatment of dogs and going to jail. that's his own fault. You cannot justify that in anyway. because of WHAT he did, he shouldn't be praised as "greatest comeback ever". i believe that's for people who come back from things they can't control, not from being a scumbag and going to prison for brutality towards animals and well...you know...breakin the law.
and hey, inbreeding and incest is also common in the South...along with dog figthing, so more power to you.
jesus christ.
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Old 12-25-2010, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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Vick didn't get sentenced to jail just for dog fighting. He got 18 months for operating a gambling ring that crossed state boundaries, thus racketeering. The government doesn't care about him killing a dog, it's PETA and the news organizations playing that up. If Vick ran/shot a dog, he wouldn't even sniff what Stallworth got. It's the operating an illegal business without paying proper taxes that ****** him up.

You can kill people just don't screw the government out of its money and you're fine.
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Old 12-25-2010, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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That is a very good point. He wasn't even going to get caught until the Federal Government got involved due to the instate activity. The DA in Virginia was completely incompetent and there is no way Vick would have been convicted by the state.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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I'm sick of seeing "oh you should come to the south, that is complete commonplace here!11!1!1." That is the most ridiculous argument I think I've ever seen in regards to this. It might happen, but it IS a big deal there too. Downplaying that is flat out ********.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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He's still a low-life, which spoils it for me completely. I admit that Vick is a great talent, but he really shouldn't be in the NFL. I'm pretty shocked at how quickly and neatly the birthday party shooting has been swept under the rug. Lets re-cap. Vick's co-defendant in the dog fighting case gets into some type of altercation with MV and gets shot (by the invisible man, apparently) 5 minutes after Vick leaves. He shouldn't be associating with him anyway and most likely violated several protocals of his probation with the federal government and the NFL.

Great talent, but shouldn't be an NFL player, IMO. I feel like he's lost that privilege. If Goodell was the disciplinarian he makes himself out to be, he would have suspended Vick for the season just to be careful. Now Vick #7 kids jerseys are flying off of the shelves. Scary thought.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Oh, well if San Diego Chicken, moral judge of the universe deems him to have lost his NFL privilege let it be so.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Well hey, if Shiver disagrees, he MUST be right!
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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You don't like it, don't watch the games, don't buy NFL merchandise. Last time I checked there is something called the free market where a player like Michael Vick, who PAID for his crimes, is eligible to return to employment/society.

So would you be in favor of laws that prohibit anyone with a criminal record to be ineligible to work related bonuses across the board? Why should that kind of holier than thou attitude only be applied in the world of sports?
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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No, you're absolutely right Shiver, and if anyone disagrees with your opinion they are DEAD WRONG.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Well, in this case, yes absolutely. Unless you think that all former convicts should not have opportunities for employment, or even being rewarded for their work if they do excel, due to past sins is acceptable in American society. Like I said, don't give the NFL your hard earned money if you don't like it.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:26 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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It's Roger Goodell's policy and his words that are the discussion here, Shiver, not what I think. I think Vick's a lowlife scumbucket. Goodell is trying (not very hard) to keep lowlife thugs out of his league. Lie to us then and let every thug back in the league and reverse the suspensions you gave to people like Pac-Man and Tank Williams, and Ben Roethlisberger who was exonerated much in the same manner that Vick was for the shooting, minus the prior history.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Just so you know Goodell was and is dead wrong in the suspensions he gave out. Especially when he superseded the criminal justice system. It is really telling how weak the NFLPA is that they can't even stand up to a commissioner that punishes players for nothing more than hearsay and conjecture with no legitimate course of appeal and arbitration. It was in his power to do, but it was an abuse of said power.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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You don't like it, don't watch the games, don't buy NFL merchandise. Last time I checked there is something called the free market where a player like Michael Vick, who PAID for his crimes, is eligible to return to employment/society.

So would you be in favor of laws that prohibit anyone with a criminal record to be ineligible to work related bonuses across the board? Why should that kind of holier than thou attitude only be applied in the world of sports?
Let me answer that question. No, I wouldn't be in favor of such laws. You seem to be under the impression that the free market only goes one way. Corporations are absolutely allowed to discriminate on the basis of prior criminal acts and personal conduct. If Vick doesn't like it, he can go play in the UFL, or flip burgers for all I care. He deserves to. That's my opinion, but I don't apologize for it.
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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They can, they didn't, Vick is now in the league. Now that he is employed he is completely eligible to whatever performance recognition there is in his employment.
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Old 12-25-2010, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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Just so you know Goodell was and is dead wrong in the suspensions he gave out. Especially when he superseded the criminal justice system. It is really telling how weak the NFLPA is that they can't even stand up to a commissioner that punishes players for nothing more than hearsay and conjecture with no legitimate course of appeal and arbitration. It was in his power to do, but it was an abuse of said power.
The NFL is a business. Any other business can suspend or fire an employee charged with a felony. They don't have to wait and see if that person is convicted in a court of law. Why should NFL players get special treatment?
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Old 12-25-2010, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Just so you know Goodell was and is dead wrong in the suspensions he gave out. Especially when he superseded the criminal justice system. It is really telling how weak the NFLPA is that they can't even stand up to a commissioner that punishes players for nothing more than hearsay and conjecture with no legitimate course of appeal and arbitration. It was in his power to do, but it was an abuse of said power.
How is he wrong? It's not the ******* criminal justice system. The NFL is a business and it can do whatever the hell it wants. Obviously it can't discriminate, but this is assumed knowledge within any business practice. Not to mention players can appeal these punishments, but the vast majority don't or end up losing out.

If you don't want to be fined or suspended then keep your name out of the paper for negative reasons. It's not hard to do, it's just most of the time players put themselves in ****** situations, whether they are the catalyst of the event or not.

In regards to your other posts, about giving second chances to convicted criminals, I agree - but you're acting like this is a common occurrence. I'd love to hear how many people who had good jobs went back to their former employer and received a significant amount of money, rewards, etc. after committing and serving time for a felony. I'm guessing very, very, few.

For someone with such strong opinions Shiver, I would presume you'd respect other peoples too. San Diego Chicken probably isn't alone in his idea of thinking Vick and others shouldn't be allowed back in the league, and honestly, because it's a tremendous privilege to play in the NFL, he's got a pretty valid point.

Oh, and not to mention Vick has been given NUMEROUS chances to redeem himself. You're acting like people won't give Vick a job to work as a bag boy in the grocery store (which many stores wont to felons). He's still getting paid millions of dollars and will get a huge pay day this off-season.

I can certainly see how people wouldn't want Vick getting the Comeback Player of the Year Award. Vick has been given his second chance by being allowed back in the league. Most people here don't seem to care if he's back in the league either, it's just some people think it's idiotic to award the guy for being a scumbag and having to come back from that.

It's one thing to give second chances (which I'm a HUGE believer it), but why in the world should anyone reward stupidity, and despicable actions?
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Old 12-25-2010, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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How is he wrong? It's not the ******* criminal justice system. The NFL is a business and it can do whatever the hell it wants. Obviously it can't discriminate, but this is assumed knowledge within any business practice. Not to mention players can appeal these punishments, but the vast majority don't or end up losing out.

If you don't want to be fined or suspended then keep your name out of the paper for negative reasons. It's not hard to do, it's just most of the time players put themselves in ****** situations, whether they are the catalyst of the event or not.

In regards to your other posts, about giving second chances to convicted criminals, I agree - but you're acting like this is a common occurrence. I'd love to hear how many people who had good jobs went back to their former employer and received a significant amount of money, rewards, etc. after committing and serving time for a felony. I'm guessing very, very, few.

For someone with such strong opinions Shiver, I would presume you'd respect other peoples too. San Diego Chicken probably isn't alone in his idea of thinking Vick and others shouldn't be allowed back in the league, and honestly, because it's a tremendous privilege to play in the NFL, he's got a pretty valid point.

Oh, and not to mention Vick has been given NUMEROUS chances to redeem himself. You're acting like people won't give Vick a job to work as a bag boy in the grocery store (which many stores wont to felons). He's still getting paid millions of dollars and will get a huge pay day this off-season.

I can certainly see how people wouldn't want Vick getting the Comeback Player of the Year Award. Vick has been given his second chance by being allowed back in the league. Most people here don't seem to care if he's back in the league either, it's just some people think it's idiotic to award the guy for being a scumbag and having to come back from that.

It's one thing to give second chances (which I'm a HUGE believer it), but why in the world should anyone reward stupidity, and despicable actions?
I think what it comes down to is whether or not a person believes he really has become a changed man and he feels bad for what he has done or that he is just playing along with it and hasn't changed at all. I certainly hope hes honest when he says he understands whathe did was wrong and he wishes he could take it back, but no one can know for certain. Thus far he's done what he's needed to do to prove he's changed but like I said who can say? What it's come down to here is whether people believe what he did was unforgivable, or that he really is sorry for what he's done, realizes he made a mistake and is trying to get back to the top. If were talking about CPOTY then no one has missed as much time as he has and then come back to this elite of a level, regardless of what he's done.
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