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Old 01-17-2011, 01:20 AM    (permalink
DMWSackMachine
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Default Tom Brady: The Cautionary Tale

I was thinking about doing a major writeup on the subject, but I don't think it needs to be spelled out at this point. Be careful when attributing a team's ability to win to a single player, and keep the subject of Super Bowl victories in perspective when discussing the hierarchy of QBs in the history of this league. Tom Brady is a much better QB today than he was in 2004, yet his track record over the last 6 years looks remarkably similar to that of Peyton Manning from 2000 to 20005.

He's now 4-5 in the playoffs since then, including a mark of just 2-5 against teams that he played in the regular season. Where is his clutchness now? Where is his sense of the moment? Where is his rises-to-the-occasion ability?

Exactly, all that talk was a bunch of crap then and it is a bunch of crap now. The only thing that Brady lovers are left with now is a load of excuses about how his supporting cast failed him in this situation or that situation, and how he did what he could with what he had yadda yadda yadda.

In other words, its a team game and you win as a team. Brady is a very good QB, maybe even great. However, he has yet to bring his team back from any sizable deficit to win a playoff game (and I struggle to remember a time he's done it in the regular season, but I'm sure its happened....right?) and tonight, when the game was on the line and his team needed 7 points, all he could come up with was a FG. The best QBs, the Elways, Montanas, Staubachs, Unitases and, yes, Mannings are able to bring their teams back in that situation. Brady couldn't do it. Brady never has done it.

But if you are tied and need 3 points to win the game....hey, he's your man.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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An interesting fact: Tom Brady's career postseason stats are pretty average. And they are also not as good as Peyton Mannings. "Mr. Clutch" has a statistically less impressive track record in the playoffs then a guy who is commonly called a choke artist.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0_playoffs.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0_playoffs.htm

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Old 01-17-2011, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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I foresee this thread going far.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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I think what Brady did this year with 2 rookie tight ends, Deion Branch and Danny Woodhead is remarkable. Today the Jets defense pressured the hell out of him and no QB would have been comfortable in the pocket. Its fair to say that he's struggled in the postseason lately but to discredit him as a big game QB is ridiculous. If I'm down 7 points or less with 2 minutes to go, there's no other QB id want leading that drive. Sometimes you get in a no-win situation and today was one of those. A lot of questionable calls, going for it on 4th and 13, fake punt...just buried them. Id chill on the Brady hate...guess who's gonna be right back at the top next year? Tom Brady and the Pats. They can only get better cpnsidering what they worked with this year...and they have a ton of high draft picks.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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Adam Vinatieri Super Bowls: 4
Tom Brady Super Bowls: 3
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:49 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, this thread is going downhill.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:54 AM    (permalink
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Adam Vinatieri Super Bowls: 4
Tom Brady Super Bowls: 3
Super Bowls during SpyGate: 3
Super Bowls after SpyGate: 0
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:09 AM    (permalink
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Joe Montana had a 4 year lull between Super Bowls, picked up Jerry Rice and won 2 more. Imagine if back in 1988 someone wrote up a post saying Montana was overrated and pretty much finished. He took the 49ers to SB 23 following that season. I guess there are no good QBs in the league in this internet era if you can attempt to tear down Brady.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:33 AM    (permalink
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Isn't it obvious after today......Brady sucks and Sanchez is so underrated.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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I was thinking about doing a write up on this as well, and was discussing the subject in the Divisional Round thread.

People think of me as either a massive Manning hater or a Brady lover. I'm neither, I just call things the way my eyes see them. And if I'm a hater, then I'm an equal opportunity hater.

Combine the poor performance in the 2007 Superbowl, the shutout/blowout last year to the Ravens, and this year's stinker against the Jets, and Brady's postseason mystique is starting to wane off - if it isn't completely gone.

But here's the thing...I'm not making any excuses for him. And you could totally make that argument for him. Look at the boxscore and stateline: 28-21, 29-45, 64%, 299 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT. That's "good enough to win" numbers I guess. And the o-line and defense played poor, and blah blah blah (excuses, excuses).

But you know what? My eyes don't lie. He had zero command of the game today. He was oblivious to pressure in the pocket. Once he lost his rhythm, he couldn't get it back. He played pretty terribly.

On the other hand, you still can't take the three rings away from him. He's still one of the best quarterbacks of all time. The old argument against him was that he wasn't a dominant statistical passer, but he's turned into that in recent seasons. But, like DMW said, this has also coincided with embarrassing playoff losses.

In regards to him vs Manning, I don't see how you can (or will) be able to chalk it up to anything other than a draw. They've both still got some time left, but I both have their best days behind them. Looking at the matchups on Championship weekend, we're seeing a changing of the guard at the quarterback position.

And for the money, I'm probably going to start touting Big Ben as best QB in the league. Especially if they go to (and/or win) the Superbowl with a practice squad offensive line.

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Old 01-17-2011, 02:44 AM    (permalink
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And for the money, I'm probably going to start touting Big Ben as best QB in the league. Especially if they go to (and/or win) the Superbowl with a practice squad offensive line.
Aaron Rodgers is the future of the position.


But i do like Ben a lot as a QB.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers is the future of the position.


But i do like Ben a lot as a QB.
If he wins the Superbowl this year, I wouldn't argue against Rodgers at all.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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He's had a bad game or two in 19 playoff appearances and people want to say the mystique is gone?

I'm going to wait a week before I make any judgments so I can look back over it all in my mind, but I am kind of laughing at all of the people jumping off the cliff at the moment.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:47 AM    (permalink
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And for the money, I'm probably going to start touting Big Ben as best QB in the league. Especially if they go to (and/or win) the Superbowl with a practice squad offensive line.
I agree with you 99% of the time.

But give me Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, and Brees before Big Ben.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:47 AM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers is the future of the position.


But i do like Ben a lot as a QB.
I would agree with this. I would take Rodgers right now, but Big Ben isn't far behind. I'll write more up on the whole Brady thing at some point this week. While theres obviously going to be a lot of ammo here for Brady haters to use, there are some legit points brought up in this thread so hopefully people can be rational and not just make comment based off the hate for the guy (as I will try not to let the homer in me affect my post...hopefully).
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:48 AM    (permalink
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He's had a bad game or two in 19 playoff appearances and people want to say the mystique is gone?

I'm going to wait a week before I make any judgments so I can look back over it all in my mind, but I am kind of laughing at all of the people jumping off the cliff at the moment.
Hey man, I still said he's one of the best of all time. And you can't take the past performances away from him, whatsoever.

But the past three playoff games have been an upset in the Superbowl in which the offense drastically underachieved, a shutout at home, and another very disappointing outing at home in which he let the Jets completely dictated the flow of his offense. That's not a very good recent history.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:48 AM    (permalink
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I don't think Brady or any QB wins alone. It's really silly to say that about any player in football. A QB spends around half of any game standing on the sideline. However, QBs are clearly the most important single players and Brady is the big reason the Patriots have 3 rings and are competitive every year. There's a reason QBs are the highest paid players and a reason quality organizations spend big resources to acquire a franchise QB when they need one. Every team left in the playoffs spent at least one first round pick to acquire their starting QB. In the case of the Bears, they spent a lot more than one first rounder. I know some fans get their feeling hurt by the way QBs are always given a lot of credit and press, but there's a reason for it.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:49 AM    (permalink
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I was thinking about doing a write up on this as well, and was discussing the subject in the Divisional Round thread.

People think of me as either a massive Manning hater or a Brady lover. I'm neither, I just call it the way my eyes see it. And if I'm a hater, then I'm an equal opportunity hater.

Combine the poor performance in the 2007 Superbowl, the shutout/blowout last year to the Ravens, and this year's stinker against the Jets, and Brady's postseason mystique is starting to wane off - if it isn't completely gone.

But here's the thing...I'm not making any excuses for him. And you could totally make that argument for him. Look at the boxscore and stateline: 28-21, 29-45, 64%, 299 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT. That's "good enough to win" numbers I guess. And the o-line and defense played poor, and blah blah blah (excuses, excuses).

But you know what? My eyes don't lie. He had zero command of the game today. He was oblivious to pressure in the pocket. Once he lost his rhythm, he couldn't get it back. He played pretty terribly.

On the other hand, you still can't take the three rings away from him. He's still one of the best quarterbacks of all time. The old argument against him was that he wasn't a dominant statistical passer, but he's turned into that in recent seasons. But, like DMW said, this has also coincided with embarrassing playoff losses.

In regards to him vs Manning, I don't see how you can (or will) be able to chalk it up to anything other than a draw. They've both still got some time left, but I both have their best days behind them. Looking at the matchups on Championship weekend, we're seeing a changing of the guard at the quarterback position.

And for the money, I'm probably going to start touting Big Ben as best QB in the league. Especially if they go to (and/or win) the Superbowl with a practice squad offensive line.
Lmao...wow. you made some decent points in there, then went completely off your rocker the last 2 paragraphs. Look I know the natural tendency is to dismiss the team and the QB that just lost, automatically...but Manning and Brady both have at least 5 years of solid football in them, and their teams certainly are not getting worse next year. Indy gets healthy and NE has a ton of draft picks at their disposal and a ton of young developing players. This is knee-jerk...Indy and NE aren't going anywhere for quite awhile.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:50 AM    (permalink
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Hey man, I still said he's one of the best of all time. And you can't take the past performances away from him, whatsoever.

But the past three playoff games have been an upset in the Superbowl in which the offense drastically underachieved, a shutout at home, and another very disappointing outing at home in which he let the Jets completely dictate the flow of his offense. That's not a very good recent history.
The thing about him and Manning is, they are both almost the entire team. So as soon as one of them have a bad game, the team loses.

A guy like Ben can have a bad game, and his defense will carry him, and people will still proclaim him to be great. Give me the Steelers D with Brady over the Steelers D with Ben 100 times out of 100.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:50 AM    (permalink
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To stick with what the original post (kind of) was saying, I don't think people realise just how difficult it is to win a superbowl. This is especially true if you are team that relies on great games from your QB like the Colts/ Pats recently, Saints etc. It really is a lot to ask of any QB to put in 3/4 exceptional performances against other elite teams without your run game, defense and special teams taking some of the pressure off.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:52 AM    (permalink
SickwithIt1010
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
If he wins the Superbowl this year, I wouldn't argue against Rodgers at all.
Yeah I think they are going to represent the NFC at this point, or that is my prediction at least.

Im just very impressed with what A-Rod has done with basically zero running game this season. Hes very confident, and has a swagger to him that makes him that much better.

Every single time i watch him play i make sure to remind my friend that I said the 9ers should take him over Smith....which he didnt ever agree with.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:11 AM    (permalink
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I said it once before, and it was apparent during the 16-0 season:

Brady IS Manning now, he's proving that it's easier to win with a dominant defense where you have to come up with a big drive or two once per game, and not rely on getting into shootouts.

Since Brady became a super prolific regular season QB, his playoff record looks mediocre. That's what happens when you have to carry a team through the air.

Moral of the story? Only Drew Brees can bust up passing records and lead a dominant offensive run through the playoffs without a lockdown D :D JK JK JK
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:12 AM    (permalink
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Rignt now, with the game on the line give me Big Ben. For an entire game give me A-Rod.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:25 AM    (permalink
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Really, you just can't look at things in black and white terms. So Brady wasn't one of the better playoff guys number wise. He still did what he needed to and more during those SB years when you factor in the clutch factor and such. But still when you look at guys like Mark Sanchez you can't just say that he's winning so he's obviously playing well. It has to be on a case by case basis so you can't just say so and so has this many rings so he's better than Dan Marino. Every case is different. Tom Brady is still one of the best QB's of all time, but he's not better than guys like Joe Montana.

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Old 01-17-2011, 03:30 AM    (permalink
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well, if we're going to make this a serious thread...

people make too much of the playoffs. it's too small of a sample size. over the course of a guy's career it can be a knock at the end if he's always there and always falls short. a couple games? no

knee jerking brady down is dumb. so is knee jerking someone else up. what if the bears win this SB? is cutler the new QB god like brees was last year? roethlisberger has moved up in my eyes because of how he's improved as a QB in the last couple years, not because he won 2 SBs playing with a great team and has another shot now. even after I grant how great he's playing now...the steelers went 3-1 without him this year. are they getting a shot at a SB with charlie batch or dennis dixon? probably not, because those guys suck (well, batch is decent for an old back up but whatever). but they missed the playoffs last year with big benzzz because they lost a ton of close games and the defense was good, not great with polamalu out most of the year. where was his clutchness then? quarterback is the most important position in football but it is not the only position. and it alone cannot overcome 11 other positions (an opposing defense).

the playoffs have great performances. occasionally by great players, occasionally by not so great players. marshawn lynch is a crappy NFL running back. the fact that he had the run of his professional life in the playoffs does not change that fact. where this gets muddied is when you try to determine how great a guy is because of how he plays in a couple games, especially compared to how great some other guy is in those couple of games.

right now I dont see how anyone can justifiably argue that one guy (or small group of guys) is that far ahead of anyone else right now since brady and manning are getting older while some of the better young QBs have really started to mature and step it up. it's all tiers to me right now and tier 1 is no longer manning/brady.

i mean, if you want to put one guy ahead of everyone else be my guest. good luck convincing even a small minority of people that, though. for one, this isn't the nba. it's 1 of 53, not 1 of 13. but hey, if the NFL michael jordan shows up, call me
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