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Old 01-17-2011, 03:34 AM    (permalink
Philliez01
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I've spent numerous times arguing for Peyton but what I've learned is this:

You can build a team around a QB, a QB around a team, but a QB shouldn't be a team.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:40 AM    (permalink
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Brady and Manning being good QBs doesn't mean they rest of the team isn't trying to be good too. I've never heard anyone from the Patriots, Colts or and other team say "Hey, our QB is good so we don't need other good players". Some of these arguments I'm reading are bordering on "Brady and Manning are hurting their teams."
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
well, if we're going to make this a serious thread...

people make too much of the playoffs. it's too small of a sample size. over the course of a guy's career it can be a knock at the end if he's always there and always falls short. a couple games? no

knee jerking brady down is dumb. so is knee jerking someone else up. what if the bears win this SB? is cutler the new QB god like brees was last year? roethlisberger has moved up in my eyes because of how he's improved as a QB in the last couple years, not because he won 2 SBs playing with a great team and has another shot now. even after I grant how great he's playing now...the steelers went 3-1 without him this year. are they getting a shot at a SB with charlie batch or dennis dixon? probably not, because those guys suck (well, batch is decent for an old back up but whatever). but they missed the playoffs last year with big benzzz because they lost a ton of close games and the defense was good, not great with polamalu out most of the year. where was his clutchness then? quarterback is the most important position in football but it is not the only position. and it alone cannot overcome 11 other positions (an opposing defense).

the playoffs have great performances. occasionally by great players, occasionally by not so great players. marshawn lynch is a crappy NFL running back. the fact that he had the run of his professional life in the playoffs does not change that fact. where this gets muddied is when you try to determine how great a guy is because of how he plays in a couple games, especially compared to how great some other guy is in those couple of games.

right now I dont see how anyone can justifiably argue that one guy (or small group of guys) is that far ahead of anyone else right now since brady and manning are getting older while some of the better young QBs have really started to mature and step it up. it's all tiers to me right now and tier 1 is no longer manning/brady.

i mean, if you want to put one guy ahead of everyone else be my guest. good luck convincing even a small minority of people that, though. for one, this isn't the nba. it's 1 of 53, not 1 of 13. but hey, if the NFL michael jordan shows up, call me

I agree with you to an extent. I feel like too much stock is put into NFL Qb's winning-wise, but there definitely are certain QB's that come alive in certain situations that other QB's wouldn't. I think Peyton,speaking in general terms other than his SB year is a bona fide choke artist. Is he still a good QB? Of course he is, especially because he has a ring. But overall he's a choke artist. Other QB's that aren't nearly as talented are just as good in historical terms like Big Ben, because when crunch time comes he's as good a QB as is out there right now. It's all relative.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Brady and Manning being good QBs doesn't mean they rest of the team isn't trying to be good too. I've never heard anyone from the Patriots, Colts or and other team say "Hey, our QB is good so we don't need other good players". Some of these arguments I'm reading are bordering on "Brady and Manning are hurting their teams."

Well really that's what the Colts have said for 10 years now. Peyton is good so who gives a **** about our defense? Or offensive line?
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:46 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Philliez01 View Post
I've spent numerous times arguing for Peyton but what I've learned is this:

You can build a team around a QB, a QB around a team, but a QB shouldn't be a team.
Just look how utterly ineffective Peyton was last week with his #2 WR and TE out and his #1 WR completely taken out of the game. No running game, no defense. It takes a village. Bob Sanders being hurt really makes that a different team too. Aaron Francisco just shouldn't be starting in this league. But people don't think of these things and they blast you when you do. You're supposed to assume Manning and Brady suck and every other young QB is great. Everyone is so quick to dismiss the veterans and pump up the new guys. Now we're all through with Brady and Manning I guess and ready to anoint Rodgers and Ben. Completely different scenarios there where Manning and Brady carry the team and lack a great defense.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:52 AM    (permalink
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Some of these arguments I'm reading are bordering on "Brady and Manning are hurting their teams."
When a QB has a bad game, it hurts the team drastically.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:55 AM    (permalink
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Well really that's what the Colts have said for 10 years now. Peyton is good so who gives a **** about our defense? Or offensive line?
No they haven't. The Colts have tried to address those needs. The problem has been injuries and personnel moves that haven't panned out. Picks like Tony Ugoh, Donald Brown, Marcus Howard, etc are hurting them They've missed on quite a few picks in recent year. The jury is still out on the 2010 Draft, but Jerry Hughes isn't looking like a good pick so far either.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:03 AM    (permalink
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When a QB has a bad game, it hurts the team drastically.
Oh please, like Brady is suddenly so horrible and played bad today. The Patriots lost because the Jets were the better team yesterday, not because Tom Brady was playing bad.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:09 AM    (permalink
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Oh please, like Brady is suddenly so horrible and played bad today. The Patriots lost because the Jets were the better team yesterday, not because Tom Brady was playing bad.
Tom Brady really did play poorly though. If a team is reliant on your QB playing that well like the Pats are and they play as mediocre as Brady did today you're going to lose 9 times out of 10. It's not like the Pats have amazing talent offensively that can overcome that.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:11 AM    (permalink
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Exactly. The Pats won superbowls when they were good enough to sustain a bad or mediocre game from Brady.

Look at the 16-0 Pats again. Brady was perfect all year, and had one real hiccup game, and they lost it.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:17 AM    (permalink
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Tom Brady really did play poorly though. If a team is reliant on your QB playing that well like the Pats are and they play as mediocre as Brady did today you're going to lose 9 times out of 10. It's not like the Pats have amazing talent offensively that can overcome that.
No, he didn't. The Jets just played better than the Patriots. You're going to lose 7 or 8 times out of 10 when the other team scores 28 points. Brady played well, but so did Sanchez, the Jets defense, and most of the rest of the Jets team.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:21 AM    (permalink
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No, he didn't. The Jets just played better than the Patriots. You're going to lose 7 or 8 times out of 10 when the other team scores 28 points. Brady played well, but so did Sanchez, the Jets defense, and most of the rest of the Jets team.

The Pats scored more than 28 the majority of the year. That's what they needed. New England's defense was 25th in the league this year, it was bound to catch up with them if Brady didn't play like he did this regular season. He was on a completely different page from his receivers all game long and never came up with the big throw when they needed it. I don't care what the stats say at the end of the game.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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No, he didn't. The Jets just played better than the Patriots. You're going to lose 7 or 8 times out of 10 when the other team scores 28 points. Brady played well, but so did Sanchez, the Jets defense, and most of the rest of the Jets team.
Wait....... so the New York Jets football team won? Thomas Brady didn't single handedly choke the game away?

I don't understand. When teams lose, its entirely the fault of the losing quarterback. That timeout with 29 seconds was called by Peyton Manning. Drew Brees was the one who couldn't tackle Marshawn Lynch. Matt Hasselback dropped all of those passes. ITS ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE QUARTERBACK!!!!!!! ALWAYS.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:30 AM    (permalink
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I seriously hope you're not talking to me individually Crickett, because I never even implied that Brady lost the game singlehandedly.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:32 AM    (permalink
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:34 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Tom Brady suddenly couldn't make big throws and was on a different page from his receivers. The 29 passes he completed must have been a result of dumb luck.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:36 AM    (permalink
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I seriously hope you're not talking to me individually Crickett, because I never even implied that Brady lost the game singlehandedly.
No I'm not.

I'm getting frustrated over the idea that teams don't lose anymore, quarterbacks choke. Well, that and the idea that there are no good quarterbacks. Tom Brady? Hasn't won anything in years. Peyton Manning? Only got a ring because he had some many chances. Michael Vick? He was good for a couple of games, but petered out towards the end of the season. And by petered out, I mean didn't have 400 yards passing and 5 touchdowns every game. As if the legendary quarterbacks of yesteryear never lost a freakin' game in their prime.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:36 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Tom Brady suddenly couldn't make big throws and was on a different page from his receivers. The 29 passes he completed must have been a result of dumb luck.
29 that weren't on 3rd downs or situations that they really needed. Not to mention that that was on 45 attempts. Come on man you have to come with more than that.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:39 AM    (permalink
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No I'm not.

I'm getting frustrated over the idea that teams don't lose anymore, quarterbacks choke. Well, that and the idea that there are no good quarterbacks. Tom Brady? Hasn't won anything in years. Peyton Manning? Only got a ring because he had some many chances. Michael Vick? He was good for a couple of games, but petered out towards the end of the season. And by petered out, I mean didn't have 400 yards passing and 5 touchdowns every game. As if the legendary quarterbacks of yesteryear never lost a freakin' game in their prime.

Ok yeah I can definitely agree with that. Tom Brady is still one of the top 5 QB's ever. Manning is still in the top 10. Vick only didn't win the MVP this year because Brady had one of the GOAT regular seasons. But how you perform when things don't go perfectly for you should have some say in your all time ranking as a quarterback. Brady just didn't play that well today, and to a certain extent it cost his team the game. Not totally, but if he would have played as well as he did in the regular season, who knows maybe the Pats pull it out.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:42 AM    (permalink
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I really believe the Pats draft philosophy of trading down to acquire more picks is hurting the team. Sure they have great depth & a bunch of nice players but not many standouts. Yes Brady is a standout on offense but who else? No. 1 receiver - NO, Top 10 RB - NO, Great TE - maybe but too early. The defense - people say Chung this great young player but he ****** up several times tonight, Mayo missed tackles etc.

Anyways does anyone think that with Moss the score may have been different? Revis may have shut him down but Branch & Welker.......... in hindsight maybe a 3rd wasn't such a great deal ? IMHO
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:56 AM    (permalink
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Really that 3rd round pick for Moss was a genius deal in hindsight. Say what you want about trading down constantly but Moss is a bona fide useless player now. You never even heard the guys name once he was with the Titans.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:58 AM    (permalink
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You've just gotta give these young players they draft some time to develop. I agree on the WR part but they did have Moss and now Id expect them to address it in the draft. But they have some good young players on defense that could be studs down the line with some development. Look at all the good players they landed in 1 draft..McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez, Spikes, Cunningham...you can't really say that that was a mistake. The 09 draft is a problem. They really missed on a lot of guys in that 1 draft..Darius Butler, Ron Brace, Tyrone McKenzie, Kevin OConnell come to mind. But they hit on Vollmer too. Like I've said, they have so many picks that they will land 3-4 more impact players in thias years draft...they aren't getting any worse and their draft philosophy is hard to argue with. Devin McCourty and a bunch of 2nd round impact players? What's wrong with that?
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ninerfan View Post
I really believe the Pats draft philosophy of trading down to acquire more picks is hurting the team. Sure they have great depth & a bunch of nice players but not many standouts. Yes Brady is a standout on offense but who else? No. 1 receiver - NO, Top 10 RB - NO, Great TE - maybe but too early. The defense - people say Chung this great young player but he ****** up several times tonight, Mayo missed tackles etc.

Anyways does anyone think that with Moss the score may have been different? Revis may have shut him down but Branch & Welker.......... in hindsight maybe a 3rd wasn't such a great deal ? IMHO
Umm it worked great for the cowboys of the 90's to have so many picks because gems can be found throughout the draft if you have the scouting department to look for them. The pats have a great GM and scouts so they'll make great use of those picks.

Those two rookie TE are going to be elite soon. They both have 550 yards receiving and they'll get better with more time. I'm not too sure on Hernandez but Gronkowiski just looks like a monster in the making to me. Elite talents can be found throughout the draft, just look at TO and Ocho Cinco. They were both 2nd rounders. Those mid-low first round picks are what's best for the Pat's anyways. Long term deals that won't break the bank like those top 5 picks. It allows them to work under the cap and bring in free agents that strengthen the squad.
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:31 AM    (permalink
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The Brady of today is an excellent QB. A great QB, even. The problem I have is that people wanted to crown him ONLY upon the merits of winning 3 SBs, somehow attribute those 3 wins to his excellence at the QB position. That's ridiculous, and its been proven so now. If that was the case, he would have kept winning Super Bowls...unless you want to bother making the ludicrous argument that he had it then and somehow lost it, lawl.

It's just so stupid. Really, it is. The Pats of 2001 were the equivalent to the 2007 Giants. A solid team who were able to ride the wave of several very fortunate breaks, give themselves a chance to win and then make just enough plays to get it done against a team that was, quite frankly, better than them (no disrespect intended, but that's how it is). They weren't an elite football team, and it showed the next year when they didn't even make the playoffs.

Through superior management, savvy personnel moves and dedication, they became an elite team in 2003 and 2004. But Brady was barely more than a caretaker. He didn't lose games for them and when the defense and special teams needed a late FG to clinch the game, he delivered. But he was never a strength of that team. Those teams won with DEFENSE. They were the #1 defense in 2003 and neck and neck with Pittsburgh for #1 in 2004. They forced TOs, they kept teams out of the endzone and they always kept the team in the game. Meanwhile, Brady presided over an offense that was middle-of-the-pack. Starting in 2005, the nucleus of players that made them what they were started to erode. McGinest left, Andruzzi left, Troy Brown became washed up, etc and they weren't the same group....all while Brady got better. But as the team relied more and more on Brady, they got farther and farther away from accomplishing their goals as a TEAM.

This isn't hard to follow. Everyone understands the simple concept that the more talent you have, the better your chances are of winning SBs. Except somehow in Brady's case those 3 rings blind people and rob them of their common sense. They become fatalists, and think that what happened was the result of some supernatural greatness by the QB, because they don't have any other simple explanation (God forbid they try to obtain a thorough understanding of the situation) for it. Then you get people trying to say that a "pretty good" QB--Brady circa 2001-2003 is a great one.

Looking at him now, its much easier to feel comfortable with him in the discussion as an All-Time great. He's become highly accurate. He is one of the 3 best decision makers at the position ever. He has a knowledge of the game and how to read a defense that is right up there with the best ever as well. But that's not the guy that won 3 Super Bowls. He's much better now than he was then. Yet, ironically, he's had far less post season success. Massively comical, seeing as how his post season success was his only real claim to greatness pre-2007.

This isn't hard to get. He simply has had a much worse team. Even that 2007 team wasn't as good. They were certainly an impressive bunch--offensively. But the numbers were skewed a bit due to their willingness to run the score up long after a game was decided, and they slowed considerably towards the end of the year. If Brady was everything everyone had ever made him out to be, they never would have lost in that Super Bowl. Unfortunately, he wasn't. No one is.

More than anything, this is commentary about how to build a championship team. If you want any chance of prolonged success (think of the Saints and how up and down they have been over the last 5 years despite having an elite QB at their disposal) you need to build a defense that will always keep you in games. In the end, that's what the Pats SB runs were founded on, even though Brady always gets the credit in retrospect.
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He was protecting his self
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From what? His leg?
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That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:39 AM    (permalink
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I'll be honest.
Roethlisburger would not be much without that defense.
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