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Old 01-29-2011, 09:06 PM    (permalink
whatadai
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Originally Posted by BigDawg819 View Post
Brian Billick has:

Marvin Lewis
Mike Nolan
Mike Smith
Jack Del Rio
Rex Ryan
Mike Singletary
I'm sorry, but that's a pretty crappy list, no way could he contend for best tree. Ryan also brought a new scheme to Baltimore and moved Suggs to DE a lot more so I wouldn't put him under Billick's tree. Mike Smith is the only other mentionable on that list and he's still working on getting there, you need at least one playoff win to be called a success.
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Old 01-29-2011, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JETS5128 View Post
Rex is from Buddy"s coaching tree more than anything else
Not as much his tree as much as his "staff."
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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In the past 20 it's Parcells and Walsh easy. Parcells also has a GM thing as I know Tannenbaum is "his guy" from the Jets and he picked Ireland for Miami.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by whatadai View Post
I'm sorry, but that's a pretty crappy list, no way could he contend for best tree. Ryan also brought a new scheme to Baltimore and moved Suggs to DE a lot more so I wouldn't put him under Billick's tree. Mike Smith is the only other mentionable on that list and he's still working on getting there, you need at least one playoff win to be called a success.
I wasn't saying that Billick's tree is in any way or shape the best, but merely stating that he's had a measure of success in subordinates becoming head coaches. Frankly his coaches have had more success as head coaches then a certain 3 time Super Bowl winning head coach.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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The Dennis Green tree is pretty solid (obviously an extension of the Walsh tree). Strangely. Billick, Dungy, and all of their stooges.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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Walsh has:
Holmgren
Billick
Shanny
Green
Mooch
Hackett
Dungy

Amongst many others

Parcells has:
Belichick which technically is better than Parcells and all of Walsh tree but Bill himself
Payton
Coughlin

I would say they're even! I thank both of them for bringing us great football.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:42 AM    (permalink
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I think its a pretty difficult question to answer, for one major reason in my opinion. I'll take Tony Dungy and his coaching tree for example. Dungy's tree has had some pretty decent success in recent years. 2-2 in Superbowls with another Superbowl appearance in a weeks time, and 4 current NFL Head Coaches, so having Dungy in your Coaching Tree would definately give you a boost. So who's tree is Dungy in? Is he in Bill Walsh's coaching tree? He was the Defensive Co-ordinator of the Vikings when Dennis Green in was in Minnesota. Is he part of the Marty Schottenheimer tree? Dungy was the Defensive Backs coach in Kansas City? Or was he part of the Chuck Noll coaching tree? Dungy got his first NFL coaching job as the Defensive Backs coach of the Steelers under Noll and has stated that the Tampa 2 was just a modified version of the 75 Steelers defensive playbook.

And that is only one Coach and his Coaching tree. So it is very difficult to state categorically which Coach came from which tree and by extension difficult to state which has been the best.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:01 AM    (permalink
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While Bill Walsh has a massive coaching tree with numerous current or former head coaches, the relative success has not been great. Only really Billick, Gruden and Shanahan have had any Superbowl success and many credit Tony Dungy for most of Tampa Bay's success.
Mike Holmgren, George Seifert, and Dennis Green had fabulous runs with their teams while they were head coaches. And those guys are just the ones that worked directly with Walsh. Steve Mariucci (who knows Walsh well) had a great run with the 49ers, and Mike Sherman and Andy Reid have had success with their teams while being head coaches. Mike McCarthy can get thrown in there too because of his time with Paul Hackett who worked under Walsh. I think it's Walsh hands down.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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Not necessarily just Superbowl rings but wins as well. I dont necessarily agree with the premise that being long tenured makes you a good coach either. Jeff Fisher only had, I think, 6 winning seasons in Tennessee.

I also don't think that at the minute any of those current coaches except Tomlin come close to either Belichick or Payton. At the moment I would consider Tomlin and McCarthy to be the only top coaches in that tree and they both benefit from excellent front offices too.
Payton hasn't coached that long in the NFL and he's had 3 winning seasons out of five in New Orleans. Mike Shanahan at this point has more credentials. John Gruden too. I know you're talking about current coaches, but since we're talking about the Bill Walsh tree, I think it's relative if you're going to talk about Payton and the tree he comes from.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:08 AM    (permalink
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He also only had 5 losing seasons. :)

Not to turn this thread off topic, but people need to understand why Fisher is seen as this great coach yet only has 6 winning seasons. In the modern NFL, rules have been put into place that force parity, such as the salary cap. In 16 full seasons, Fisher was .500 or better in 11 of them (I'm not going to count his interim year). Should .500 be applauded? No way. Just saying it's hard to escape that when your job is restricted towards that outcome.

Yet, we have many teams who are contenders year in and year out. That's because elite QB's, usually along with great HC's and/or top notch front offices, carry enough power to overcome such things.

Who and when was the last elite QB for the Titans?

Not only that, but do people realize he oversaw a franchise shift from Houston, TX to Nashville, TN that saw stops in Memphis and Vanderbilt's stadium, along with Floyd Reese getting the team into the depths of salary cap hell after '04. The Titans had one losing season after that, and went 8-8 two seasons later. And this is all without getting into the Bud Adams shenanigans.

It was time for the Titans and Fisher to split. I still like Fisher. A lot. I hope he goes to another team, where he actually gets to approve the player who plays the most vital position, and shows up the people who just skimmed his wikipedia page and started judging his career. If you're going to criticize something, target his **** playoff success. It literally took a miracle for him to get to the Super Bowl.

/rant
That's a K.O. Jeff Fisher gets way too much hate sometimes. He's a good coach.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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How about Marty Schottenheimer when he was in Kansas City:

Tony Dungy
Herm Edwards
Bill Cowher
Mike McCarthy
Gunther Cunningham
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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I think its a pretty difficult question to answer, for one major reason in my opinion. I'll take Tony Dungy and his coaching tree for example. Dungy's tree has had some pretty decent success in recent years. 2-2 in Superbowls with another Superbowl appearance in a weeks time, and 4 current NFL Head Coaches, so having Dungy in your Coaching Tree would definately give you a boost. So who's tree is Dungy in? Is he in Bill Walsh's coaching tree? He was the Defensive Co-ordinator of the Vikings when Dennis Green in was in Minnesota. Is he part of the Marty Schottenheimer tree? Dungy was the Defensive Backs coach in Kansas City? Or was he part of the Chuck Noll coaching tree? Dungy got his first NFL coaching job as the Defensive Backs coach of the Steelers under Noll and has stated that the Tampa 2 was just a modified version of the 75 Steelers defensive playbook.

And that is only one Coach and his Coaching tree. So it is very difficult to state categorically which Coach came from which tree and by extension difficult to state which has been the best.
I think when they go through so many coaching trees that they're either a product of their last stop or they're just their own tree.
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Mike Holmgren's is pretty impressive from the time he was with Green Bay.
Holmgren is a branch of the Walsh tree.

He is a native San Franciscan & the only SF native on the 9ers staff under Walsh.

I believe Nick Saban has links to Bellichick but is not p/o the tree. Saban & BB are close friends & both Croatian-Americans:

from Wikipedia:

Nick Saban is of Croatian origin. Bill Belichick, with whom Nick Saban has excellent relations, said, when speaking about him and Saban: "Two successful Croats in the same division of NFL. You must admit, you don't see that every day."
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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FYI Dungy's tree

Lovie Smith 1 Super Bowl as HC and 1 as Rams DC (unfortunately had Grossman as QB)
Herm Edwards
Rod Marinelli
Mike Tomlin 3 Super Bowls (2 rings a chance at another)
Raheem Morris
Leslie Frazier 3-3 as interim HC now permanent HC
Don't forget Jim Caldwell.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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FYI Dungy's tree

Lovie Smith 1 Super Bowl as HC and 1 as Rams DC (unfortunately had Grossman as QB)
Herm Edwards
Rod Marinelli
Mike Tomlin 3 Super Bowls (2 rings a chance at another)
Raheem Morris
Leslie Frazier 3-3 as interim HC now permanent HC
2 Super Bowls and 1 ring. The first was Cowher's
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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argument over.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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argument over.
Agreed.

Where's the late Don "Air" Coryell?
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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argument over.
Not entirely.

http://www.sports-central.org/images..._tree_2008.jpg

(Image is pretty big which is why I didn't post it in the forum itself)
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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2 Super Bowls and 1 ring. The first was Cowher's
I should have clarified, my bad, Tomlin was DB coach for the Bucs in 2002.
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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I should have clarified, my bad, Tomlin was DB coach for the Bucs in 2002.
Sure ya did ;)
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:46 PM    (permalink
bullg8rdaddy
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lol

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Old 01-30-2011, 10:18 PM    (permalink
wogitalia
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Payton hasn't coached that long in the NFL and he's had 3 winning seasons out of five in New Orleans. Mike Shanahan at this point has more credentials. John Gruden too. I know you're talking about current coaches, but since we're talking about the Bill Walsh tree, I think it's relative if you're going to talk about Payton and the tree he comes from.
Yeah but 3 winning seasons and a superbowl in New Orleans is the equivalent of 3 superbowls in a place like Pittsburgh!

The Brad Childress tree is beginning though. Tomlin is clearly the star pupil, just need to hope for Frazier to match it!!!
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:24 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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Originally Posted by Mr. Goosemahn View Post
Bill Walsh, no questions asked. Half of the league can be traced back to him.


You can add Mike Smith under Del Rio
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:17 AM    (permalink
descendency
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Eh, if you limit it to Children who's parent is Bill Walsch, that list gets a lot less impressive.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:43 PM    (permalink
vikes_28
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Originally Posted by Mr. Goosemahn View Post
Bill Walsh, no questions asked. Half of the league can be traced back to him.



Holmgren, Fox, Reid, McCarthy, Gruden, Shanahan, Fisher, Dungy, Lovie, and Tomlin have all made it to a Superbowl, and I'm sure there are more on the list, but I don't know them and what they did.
This is a really nice graphic. As you can see from this, all great coaching trees come to an end somewhere. I'm sure the one from Mike Tomlin will go on, but other than that, none of them have really gone anywhere.
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