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Old 01-31-2011, 07:36 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
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Originally Posted by Umoro View Post
Just about anyone decent would look like a god behind the best offensive line of the 90s while handing off to the best RB of the 90s and throwing to the second best WR of the 90s.

In terms of skill, Young by a country mile.
I'm confused.

Barry Sanders played for the Cowboys? :/

Also, Steve Young for good measure.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:51 AM    (permalink
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I'm confused.

Barry Sanders played for the Cowboys? :/

Also, Steve Young for good measure.
You beat me to it on the Barry Sanders point. Aikman had the 2nd best players of the decade at both RB and WR, one of the greatest OLs in history and Pro Bowlers in Moose Johnston and Jay Novacek not to mention a totally stacked defense. Those Dallas teams of the 90s included 5 players who made the recent NFL Network's Top 100 Players of All-Time. That's how good they were. Only the 70s Steelers had more with 6 in the Top 100.

If Dallas had not won any Super Bowls, or even won just the one like Phil Simms did as a starter with the Giants in 1986 (he was a backup to Hostetler in 1990), would Aikman be considered a HOFer? I have my doubts.

Simms was a Super Bowl MVP with a superlative display in SB 21. His career totals in wins, completions, yards, TD passes and QB rating are very similar to Aikman's. Simms had 4 seasons of 20+ TD passes and 6 seasons of 3,000 yds compared to Aikman's 1 and 5 seasons respectively. Aikman was a 1st ballot choice yet Simms hasn't had a sniff of Canton. Without the 3 Super Bowls on a fantastic team, his HOF fate would likely have been that of Simms. The same can also be said of Bradshaw and the comparison with Aikman is a very good one.

Steve Young
3 1st team All-Pro
3 2nd team All-Pro
2 MVPs
1 OPOTY
6 Led league in Passer rating
5 Led league in Completion %
4 Led league in TD passes
2 4,000 yd seasons
5 seasons with 20+ TD passes (incl a 36 and 35)
Highest passer rating in NFL history (96.8)
1 Super Bowl (as a starter)
1 SB MVP

Troy Aikman
0 1st team All-Pro
0 2nd team All-Pro
0 MVPs
0 OPOTY
0 Led league in Passer rating
1 Led league in Completion %
0 Led league in TD passes
0 4,000 yd seasons
1 seasons with 20TD+
3 Super Bowls
1 SB MVP
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:13 AM    (permalink
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You beat me to it on the Barry Sanders point. Aikman had the 2nd best players of the decade at both RB and WR, one of the greatest OLs in history and Pro Bowlers in Moose Johnston and Jay Novacek not to mention a totally stacked defense. Those Dallas teams of the 90s included 5 players who made the recent NFL Network's Top 100 Players of All-Time. That's how good they were. Only the 70s Steelers had more with 5 in the Top 100.

If Dallas had not won any Super Bowls, or even won just the one like Phil Simms did as a starter with the Giants in 1986 (he was a backup to Hostetler in 1990), would Aikman be considered a HOFer? I have my doubts.

Simms was a Super Bowl MVP with a superlative display in SB 21. His career totals in wins, completions, yards, TD passes and QB rating are very similar to Aikman's. Simms had 4 seasons of 20+ TD passes and 6 seasons of 3,000 yds compared to Aikman's 1 and 5 seasons respectively. Aikman was a 1st ballot choice yet Simms hasn't had a sniff of Canton. Without the 3 Super Bowls on a fantastic team, his HOF fate would likely have been that of Simms. The same can also be said of Bradshaw and the comparison with Aikman is a very good one.

Steve Young
3 1st team All-Pro
3 2nd team All-Pro
2 MVPs
1 OPOTY
6 Led league in Passer rating
5 Led league in Completion %
4 Led league in TD passes
2 4,000 yd seasons
5 seasons with 20+ TD passes (incl a 36 and 35)
Highest passer rating in NFL history (96.8)
1 Super Bowl (as a starter)
1 SB MVP

Troy Aikman
0 1st team All-Pro
0 2nd team All-Pro
0 MVPs
0 OPOTY
0 Led league in Passer rating
1 Led league in Completion %
0 Led league in TD passes
0 4,000 yd seasons
1 seasons with 20TD+
3 Super Bowls
1 SB MVP
To play devil's advocate here. You think those 6 players would have made the all time greatest's list if they didn't win those superbowls? Troy was never going to put those crazy passing numbers in the cowboy's offense because it was centered around a running game. Which was already stated so I don't understand why it should be held against him.

If you just look at the game film, he was an incredibly accurate QB who usually hit his receivers in stride. Young's team ran through him with short and intermediate routes while Aikman had to throw longer/risker passes so he was never going to lead the league in completion percentage as often as Young did. As for his TD record, he was never going to be forced to throw it in the red zone when you have smith and that O-Line to plow it in. It was a safer route to go.

I'm in no way saying that Aikman was a better QB than young. But for some of the posters to even claim that he was a average QB that got carried to those superbowls is absurd. Look at this post-season records and stats. He played as big of a part as anyone of the triplets in those postseason wins. Let's not pretend he was trent dilfer when he's not here.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:28 AM    (permalink
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Larry Allen, Deion and Emmitt all still make the Top 100 without those titles imo. Irvin and Aikman would have missed the cut.

Nobody is saying Troy is comparible to Trent Dilfer but more likely a Phil Simms who was still a very good QB but a notch below what is required for Canton.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:42 AM    (permalink
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Young by a mile.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Larry Allen, Deion and Emmitt all still make the Top 100 without those titles imo. Irvin and Aikman would have missed the cut.

Nobody is saying Troy is comparible to Trent Dilfer but more likely a Phil Simms who was still a very good QB but a notch below what is required for Canton.
Well said. I agree.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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It's Young by a sizeable margin.

However, I think that both Bradshaw and Aikman are criminally underrated by the hardcore football fanbase. They might be overrated by the media and casual fans, but it's caused an undue backlash on them from the hardcore football fans.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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.gif FAIL?
yeah I guess hotlinking wasnt the best choice.

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Old 02-01-2011, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Young also has a couple of signature moments. The ones you see on NFL Films a lot. That pass to Terrell Owens in the wild card game in 1998 and the run against the Vikings are probably his most memorable. And the best performance by a quarterback in the Super Bowl.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Thanks for the feedback fellas. Very informative. As we all know stats only tell part of the story and can be made to suit almost any agenda.

Does Emmitt owe anything to Troy and Michael for possibly keeping defenses honest and having to respect the pass instead of loading up the box all the time? I know that Barry Sanders would probably have destroyed all kinds of records if he had the Cowboy O-line from that era, but Emmitt was no slouch either. (I know no one has gone that far in this thread.)
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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Didn't think people really thought this was close.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Thanks for the feedback fellas. Very informative. As we all know stats only tell part of the story and can be made to suit almost any agenda.

Does Emmitt owe anything to Troy and Michael for possibly keeping defenses honest and having to respect the pass instead of loading up the box all the time? I know that Barry Sanders would probably have destroyed all kinds of records if he had the Cowboy O-line from that era, but Emmitt was no slouch either. (I know no one has gone that far in this thread.)
It really helps aslong as its not so good that it really cuts down on Smith's carries. Smith has the record for carries, so that didn't happen to him.

A good passing game helped the Cowboys get leads in the 4th quarter, so he'd get even more carries late.

Sanders had Herman Moore, Brett Perriman and Scott Mitchell for a while, they were a strong passing game.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Didn't think people really thought this was close.
Apparently NFL Network did. They put Aikman ahead of Young by one spot.
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Stats are semi-irrelevant here. Both were asked to do vastly different things, and they both did them with great success.

People act like Aikman hit the lottery going to the Cowboys, but so did Young. If he had not been traded to the 49ers we probably wouldn't even know who he is right now.

I'll vote for Young still, but not by as much as some people in here would seem to believe.
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:54 AM    (permalink
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Young was the better pure QB IMO, but Dallas scored so many points on the ground, with their D creating turnovers and with Aikman throwing strikes to Irvin.

The Cowboys didn't need Aikman to win shootouts or throw for 400 yards and 3TDs a game to dominate.

If you watched Aikman in the playoffs during the Cowboys SB run(s), you really don't have a problem with him being in Canton.

But if you go strictly by stats, he looks overrated.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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Young was the better pure QB IMO, but Dallas scored so many points on the ground, with their D creating turnovers and with Aikman throwing strikes to Irvin.

The Cowboys didn't need Aikman to win shootouts or throw for 400 yards and 3TDs a game to dominate.

If you watched Aikman in the playoffs during the Cowboys SB run(s), you really don't have a problem with him being in Canton.

But if you go strictly by stats, he looks overrated.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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I feel like, it's almost as if winning championships actually hurts your perception amongst the die hard fans today bc they now look for reasons to call you overrated.

Part of me wants to say Aikman was better, bc Aikman was better in the playoffs than Young.

Young was statistically dominant, but the guy was a constant underachiever in the postseason.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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I feel like, it's almost as if winning championships actually hurts your perception amongst the die hard fans today bc they now look for reasons to call you overrated.

Part of me wants to say Aikman was better, bc Aikman was better in the playoffs than Young.

Young was statistically dominant, but the guy was a constant underachiever in the postseason.
That's because it's such an arbitrary and subjective topic - and it really just comes down to how you define "better."

The line is really drawn when you're attempting to define "who was the better player" vs "who had the better career." How you value these things ultimately affects your perception on the greatness of players.

Hardcore fans tend to be such close-up examiners that they end up not being able to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. I've given countless examples over the years about how worthless statistics are in measuring a player's ability because statistics in football don't happen in a vacuum.

This is especially true for quarterbacks. Football is a team game, yes, but the quarterback arguably has more of an impact on any particular game than the other 21 players combined. He is the conductor of the offense and the trophy of the defense.

The most unfair recipient of criticism, IMO, is Terry Bradshaw. The favorite arguments against him center around his statistics and his supporting cast. Fine. Well, who in the 1970s was better than Bradshaw? Really, the only guy is Staubach - and he would likely be considered the GOAT if he had played a full NFL career.

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Old 02-02-2011, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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I feel like, it's almost as if winning championships actually hurts your perception amongst the die hard fans today bc they now look for reasons to call you overrated.

Part of me wants to say Aikman was better, bc Aikman was better in the playoffs than Young.

Young was statistically dominant, but the guy was a constant underachiever in the postseason.
And at the same time, one could easily turn right around and say that being statistically dominant in the regular season has started to hurt guys as they are never that dominant in the post season. This is because postseason games are won by great TEAMS, not players.

Look at Brady (as of 2006), manning, and young. all have been great in the regular season, but none won crap without good teams around them, particularly on the other side of the ball. Yet they were called chokers because they werent as dominant in the postseason. This is because they went from playing good teams every now and then to playing great defenses and well coached teams every game in the postseason.

So of course they wont do as well if they are forced to continue to carry the team. A great qb can get his team to the playoffs, but from their he needs help. If the game's all on him, hes not going to win.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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And at the same time, one could easily turn right around and say that being statistically dominant in the regular season has started to hurt guys as they are never that dominant in the post season. This is because postseason games are won by great TEAMS, not players.

Look at Brady (as of 2006), manning, and young. all have been great in the regular season, but none won crap without good teams around them, particularly on the other side of the ball. Yet they were called chokers because they werent as dominant in the postseason. This is because they went from playing good teams every now and then to playing great defenses and well coached teams every game in the postseason.

So of course they wont do as well if they are forced to continue to carry the team. A great qb can get his team to the playoffs, but from their he needs help. If the game's all on him, hes not going to win.
Wait, so how you perform against the best competition should somehow count less because it's harder? A player's (especially a quarterback's) greatness is measured by times of adversity.

This is exactly what we're talking about.

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Old 02-02-2011, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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That's because it's such an arbitrary and subjective topic - and it really just comes down to how you define "better."

The line is really drawn when you're attempting to define "who was the better player" vs "who had the better career." How you value these things ultimately affects your perception on the greatness of players.

Hardcore fans tend to be such close-up examiners that they end up not being able to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. I've given countless examples over the years about how worthless statistics are in measuring a player's ability because statistics in football don't happen in a vacuum.

This is especially true for quarterbacks. Football is a team game, yes, but the quarterback arguably has more of an impact on any particular game than the other 21 players combined. He is the conductor of the offense and the trophy of the defense.

The most unfair recipients of criticism, IMO, is Terry Bradshaw. The favorite arguments against him center around his statistics and his supporting cast. Fine. Well, who in the 1970s was better than Bradshaw? Really, the only guy is Staubach - and he would likely be considered the GOAT if he had played a full NFL career.
I'm all about Joe Montana and Johnny U.

You know what I hate? People forget that qbs back in the day would call their own games. This tidbit gets lost in the convos of great qbs.

Johnny U was every bit the signal caller than Peyton is today. But no one remembers that football existed before headsets in helmets.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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I'm all about Joe Montana and Johnny U.

You know what I hate? People forget that qbs back in the day would call their own games. This tidbit gets lost in the convos of great qbs.

Johnny U was every bit the signal caller than Peyton is today. But no one remembers that football existed before headsets in helmets.
That's solely due to Peyton's seizure dance before every snap.

"ZOMGZ they call in three plays and he picks the best one."

Yeah. It's called a ******* audible. My high school kids were able to do it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Wait, so how you perform against the best competition should somehow count less because it's harder?

This is exactly what we're talking about.
No, what im saying is that expecting great qbs to be as statistically dominant in the playoffs as they are in the regular season is crazy.

Look at it this way. All those qbs put up crazy regular season numbers because their teams required them to to win the game. But when the post season comes, you cant be a one trick pony or a one man show and expect that to work anymore. At some point someone is going to catch on, and the best defenses always do.

people always rip qbs (brady this year, peyton in the past) for being great in the regular season then failing in the playoffs. but usually the guy who is considered best in the regular season earned that title because he dragged his average team to the playoffs and put up great stats in the process. Thats great and all, but as i said its great teams that win championships, not great qbs with average teams.

Basically, in a nut shell, teams win championships, not individuals.
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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The most unfair recipients of criticism, IMO, is Terry Bradshaw. The favorite arguments against him center around his statistics and his supporting cast. Fine. Well, who in the 1970s was better than Bradshaw? Really, the only guy is Staubach - and he would likely be considered the GOAT if he had played a full NFL career.
Maybe Kenny Stabler.
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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Peyton has underachieved in the playoffs, whether he faced great defenses or not.

Throwing picks in critical game situations is on him, not his 'team' IMO.
IMO one line of separation for the truly great QBs is what they do in the playoffs. Aikman was clutch in the playoffs and the Cowboys would not have won those three SBs without Aikman being at his absolute best when the games mattered most.
Same for Montana. Same for Elway, (except in those SB blowouts!!!lol).

It's one thing to have a QB play his ass off in the playoffs and his team still loses, like Kurt Warner and the Cards loss to the Steelers.
But it's not the same as having arguably your team's best player show up small in big games.

That's one problem I have with Peyton; rarely do the Colts get eliminated in the playoffs where I think, 'at least Manning played a helluva game but the rest of his team didn't show up'.
Too often he's been just average, ( or worse) in the postseason.

Aikman was a great 'pressure' QB and almost always came through in clutch situations and IMO earned those three rings, but I still prefer Steve Young a bit more to QB my team.
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