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Old 01-04-2012, 03:21 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Yeah but we with two guys like Nicks and Cruz already at the top I feel like that's a wasted pick. A great problem to have, but we aren't without problems that we can really be storing talent at other positions.

I just wonder what type of market Wayne will have. Would he accept a 2 year deal?
We're no longer a running team, and chances are with the direction the league is moving in, we won't be any time soon. So having 3 WRs is not a luxury, if we're going to air it out with Eli from now on it's a necessity.

I have no problem investing a 2nd in a WR if the board says he's BPA. I want linebackers more than anything, and I hope we draft 2 of em this year, but if we can land a Luke Keuchly in round 1 and the talent at LT, OLB, TE, and RB aren't as good as that 3rd WR, then I wouldn't mind taking that WR.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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I'd love Sanu, but I'm not sure how I feel about spending a first/second round pick on a WR this year.

I think we'll be fine at WR. I still like Jernigan a lot. I think he could have a similar impact as Mario did in his second year. He gets a year to redshirt and learn the offense and then can step up and be that quick screen/deep threat/return man for us.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Do you guys really think that Cruz is the real deal? I mean I know it's pretty tough to hit 1500+ yards as a flash in the pan guy, but he got nearly 100 of those on 1 play. He did his job on it, but there's a bit of a breakdown in communication there if you ask me.

When people start scheming against him and doubling him do you think he'll be able to continue to produce as a #1 WR? Personally I think Nicks is your best WR, but again, I haven't watched a lot of the Giants this year. I just like the skillset Nicks has.

What can you tell me about Cruz, are you guys all in on him? I wouldn't stop building the arsenal for Eli just yet, getting a guy like Sanu in the 2nd round wouldn't cost you guys much in terms of a draft pick who could pay off big time, especially if Mario walks.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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I'd love Sanu, but I'm not sure how I feel about spending a first/second round pick on a WR this year.

I think we'll be fine at WR. I still like Jernigan a lot. I think he could have a similar impact as Mario did in his second year. He gets a year to redshirt and learn the offense and then can step up and be that quick screen/deep threat/return man for us.
Oh good point, I forgot about Jernigan, scratch my previous comment. I think that kid can flat play!
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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Do you guys really think that Cruz is the real deal? I mean I know it's pretty tough to hit 1500+ yards as a flash in the pan guy, but he got nearly 100 of those on 1 play. He did his job on it, but there's a bit of a breakdown in communication there if you ask me.

When people start scheming against him and doubling him do you think he'll be able to continue to produce as a #1 WR? Personally I think Nicks is your best WR, but again, I haven't watched a lot of the Giants this year. I just like the skillset Nicks has.

What can you tell me about Cruz, are you guys all in on him? I wouldn't stop building the arsenal for Eli just yet, getting a guy like Sanu in the 2nd round wouldn't cost you guys much in terms of a draft pick who could pay off big time, especially if Mario walks.
100 were on one play? That's fine. He was a UDFA. I'll sign up for 1,400 from him next year right now.

Sanu would also worry me in this offense. We are very vertical, and I don't think he can play the slot for us. His skill set is better for a different team.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Let's get Sanu! Please! Sanu!!!!!!!!!!

BBD, a lot of WRs on this team would probably excel on other teams with much simpler WR rules.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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100 were on one play? That's fine. He was a UDFA. I'll sign up for 1,400 from him next year right now.

Sanu would also worry me in this offense. We are very vertical, and I don't think he can play the slot for us. His skill set is better for a different team.
Nah that's not what I'm trying to get at. I'm saying when people start scheming for him do you think he's even got a shot at 1400 yards. What makes him special, is he just another Desean Jackson type who torches people, or is he just that sudden or crisp on his routes. On his 99 yard TD he got tracked down the guy just blew the sideline tackle because he wasn't ready for the hurdle (a great move by Cruz)

I just haven't seen anything in the highlights of him that makes me think, oh wow, he's a #1 WR in the NFL. Nothing like Fitz or AJ80 or CJ. Where you just know the dude can't be stopped if their team needs them on any given play. Does he have that ability?
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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Nah that's not what I'm trying to get at. I'm saying when people start scheming for him do you think he's even got a shot at 1400 yards. What makes him special, is he just another Desean Jackson type who torches people, or is he just that sudden or crisp on his routes. On his 99 yard TD he got tracked down the guy just blew the sideline tackle because he wasn't ready for the hurdle (a great move by Cruz)

I just haven't seen anything in the highlights of him that makes me think, oh wow, he's a #1 WR in the NFL. Nothing like Fitz or AJ80 or CJ. Where you just know the dude can't be stopped if their team needs them on any given play. Does he have that ability?
No, he's not that type of player. He's more Wes Welker than those guys. But not quite as shifty a bit more size and leaping/ball skills. He may never have this many receiving yards again. But I don't see why he can't and shouldn't be in the 1000-1200 range in this offense.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Nah that's not what I'm trying to get at. I'm saying when people start scheming for him do you think he's even got a shot at 1400 yards. What makes him special, is he just another Desean Jackson type who torches people, or is he just that sudden or crisp on his routes. On his 99 yard TD he got tracked down the guy just blew the sideline tackle because he wasn't ready for the hurdle (a great move by Cruz)

I just haven't seen anything in the highlights of him that makes me think, oh wow, he's a #1 WR in the NFL. Nothing like Fitz or AJ80 or CJ. Where you just know the dude can't be stopped if their team needs them on any given play. Does he have that ability?
At the end of the day, all that # 1 WR talk is just fan non sense. The thing I look for is productivity. Is this WR productive? I don't care if he is a "#1" or a "# 28781q72837182781281728783" WR. Cruz may not be a "#1" or what not, but he just out produced Fitz, Jennings, and a lot of others. Now are their circumstances to that. Sure.. But the I'd rather focus on productivity. I think fans get so caught up with numbering WRs.

Is this guy a # 1 2 3? Not to mention teams use a lot of personnel packages so that all goes out the window.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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SANU SANU SANU SANUUUUUU

but it's a luxury. I think Jernigan is going to be very good for us, I'm with Forenci on that one. Even though BBD dubbed him Sinorice 2.0.

we need LB and OL before we go with a WR...but like, I'd LOVE Sanu
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Sanu reminds me of a more athletic Steve Smith.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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Fewell's contract doesn't end at the end of this year. He signed a 1 year extension after last year. He may have saved his job anyway with the last 2 games but it's looking like there's a great chance he'll be back no matter what. Let's hope some dumb team hires him as head coach.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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At the end of the day, all that # 1 WR talk is just fan non sense. The thing I look for is productivity. Is this WR productive? I don't care if he is a "#1" or a "# 28781q72837182781281728783" WR. Cruz may not be a "#1" or what not, but he just out produced Fitz, Jennings, and a lot of others. Now are their circumstances to that. Sure.. But the I'd rather focus on productivity. I think fans get so caught up with numbering WRs.

Is this guy a # 1 2 3? Not to mention teams use a lot of personnel packages so that all goes out the window.
See, now to me, I'd want more touchdowns, yards are okay, but yards especially for QBs and WRs get inflated super fast, give me someone who gets points on the board.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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I wouldnt mind us getting TE Dwayne Allen next year, moving Ballard to a good #2 TE with Beckum/Pascoe as the #3.
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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See, now to me, I'd want more touchdowns, yards are okay, but yards especially for QBs and WRs get inflated super fast, give me someone who gets points on the board.
Then get a good OC, and get personnel that can be good in the red zone. That could mean pass catching RB, TE, or a big/tall WR like a Burress.

I feel like I can score in the red zone. I want yards too. Get me YAC! I can throw near the goal line and either pass or run the ball in. I will score either way. Between the 20 and 20 I should be able to move the ball. Burress was avg in that area. However, in the red zone for Sanchez he did very well.

Ideally, I want to be able to get production. And that means everything, which is yards between the 20 and 20, and TDs too.

For example, Victor Cruz was productive. Was he a "#1" or "# 129873189723?
who cares? I want to know baseline, if this player can be productive for us. He def. was. He got yards, YAC, and TDs. To me that player can be on my team because he is productive.

I think too often fans care about labels. Is this guy a # 1? For me I look for can this guy be productive in our specific scheme? Can he understand the sight adjustments, such as Choice and option routes? Can he do what we are asking him to do? If he can, we feel his skill set, within our frame work of our system will allow him to be a productive player for us.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:16 AM    (permalink
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I was more talking about #1 WR as in, someone who teams have to plan against, a guy who can dominate a game even when teams plan against him. When it's 4th and 7 and you have to convert to keep the game going, is he the guy who everyone knows is getting the ball, but it doesn't matter, you can't really do anything to stop it, unless you don't cover someone else.

That's more what I was thinking in a #1 WR. Does Victor Cruz have what it takes to be an elite WR, or is he just a really amazing story this year who will come back to Earth next year?
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:20 AM    (permalink
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Going to be 45 and partly cloudy on Sunday now. 0% chance of rain.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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I was more talking about #1 WR as in, someone who teams have to plan against, a guy who can dominate a game even when teams plan against him. When it's 4th and 7 and you have to convert to keep the game going, is he the guy who everyone knows is getting the ball, but it doesn't matter, you can't really do anything to stop it, unless you don't cover someone else.

That's more what I was thinking in a #1 WR. Does Victor Cruz have what it takes to be an elite WR, or is he just a really amazing story this year who will come back to Earth next year?
The giants won't really have a #1. Eli's going to go to whoever's open on 4th and 7, that could be Cruz, or Nicks, or Mario, or Ballard, or Jernigan or even Barden if he takes the next step that some of us think he will.

As for teams scheming against and doubling Cruz, that's already happened, he's already getting just as many double teams as Nicks and still put up the season he did. He might not have dominant size or speed, but he's remarkably quick, is absolutely frustrating to bring down, has great ball skills and makes big plays when needed. If those things remain stables of his game he'll be a great starter for the giants opposite Nicks regardless of if he's considered an elite #1 or not. The kid's got a lot of Miles Austin in his game with more big play ability, and that's a great weapon for an elite QB like Eli.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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The giants won't really have a #1. Eli's going to go to whoever's open on 4th and 7, that could be Cruz, or Nicks, or Mario, or Ballard, or Jernigan or even Barden if he takes the next step that some of us think he will.

As for teams scheming against and doubling Cruz, that's already happened, he's already getting just as many double teams as Nicks and still put up the season he did. He might not have dominant size or speed, but he's remarkably quick, is absolutely frustrating to bring down, has great ball skills and makes big plays when needed. If those things remain stables of his game he'll be a great starter for the giants opposite Nicks regardless of if he's considered an elite #1 or not. The kid's got a lot of Miles Austin in his game with more big play ability, and that's a great weapon for an elite QB like Eli.
That's cool. Sort of like what Atlanta has with Roddy as our #1 but truthfully we have 3 #1 targets with Roddy, Julio, and Tony. So I get what you're saying, but on 4th and 7 and you gotta have it, someone has to be the first read, someone is the go to guy. That's what I'd say Roddy or Tony are for Matt right now. Of course he's going to get the ball to whoever is open, but if he's gotta force it to someone, it's going to be Tony or Roddy. I mean Julio is dynamic and he's going to get plenty of those type balls as well, but if you're a DC and you've gotta double someone and leave someone else 1 on 1, you can't afford to go 1 on 1 with either of those guys.

Sounds like Grimes + Cruz is going to be an epic battle of Undrafted guys who've made it to Pro Bowl status. I'm totally ready for Sunday to get here so we can stop speculating and start getting some hitting going on!
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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I was more talking about #1 WR as in, someone who teams have to plan against, a guy who can dominate a game even when teams plan against him. When it's 4th and 7 and you have to convert to keep the game going, is he the guy who everyone knows is getting the ball, but it doesn't matter, you can't really do anything to stop it, unless you don't cover someone else.

That's more what I was thinking in a #1 WR. Does Victor Cruz have what it takes to be an elite WR, or is he just a really amazing story this year who will come back to Earth next year?
Again if your productivity is X, and it's right up there with Elite or "#1" WRs, then you'd hope teams better game plan for the guy. If not, then there is a problem with that game plan.

For example, if the Falcons don't game plan for Cruz, that's on them! He has dominated teams this season. If they don't have an answer they are in trouble. Same can be said about our pass rush too. They need to game plan for that too.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Grimes just have surgery and has only played 1 game in the last month or so?
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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That's cool. Sort of like what Atlanta has with Roddy as our #1 but truthfully we have 3 #1 targets with Roddy, Julio, and Tony. So I get what you're saying, but on 4th and 7 and you gotta have it, someone has to be the first read, someone is the go to guy. That's what I'd say Roddy or Tony are for Matt right now. Of course he's going to get the ball to whoever is open, but if he's gotta force it to someone, it's going to be Tony or Roddy. I mean Julio is dynamic and he's going to get plenty of those type balls as well, but if you're a DC and you've gotta double someone and leave someone else 1 on 1, you can't afford to go 1 on 1 with either of those guys.

Sounds like Grimes + Cruz is going to be an epic battle of Undrafted guys who've made it to Pro Bowl status. I'm totally ready for Sunday to get here so we can stop speculating and start getting some hitting going on!
That's the thing though, both Cruz and Nicks and good enough to demand double teams and coverages rolled in their direction and both are good enough to beat that coverage often enough to keep the other guy free and both are going to beast against single coverage. So it doesn't matter which one teams chose to focus on.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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That's the beauty of it. How do they play our WRs?

Who covers X, Z and then Y/H/F (inside WR)?
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Didn't Grimes just have surgery and has only played 1 game in the last month or so?
He did, but he played against New Orleans and they used Tampa as a bye week for him to let him get another week of recovery. He could have come back sooner if needed, and he could have played Sunday if we needed him to. He was looking pretty good against New Orleans, making some tough tackles and being his usual sticky self in coverage.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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That's the beauty of it. How do they play our WRs?

Who covers X, Z and then Y/H/F (inside WR)?
Oh, I get it, but there's just a difference in the Patriot approach where you've got a buncha average dudes who can beat you (except when they had Randy) but not abuse you and no one is really a star, vs the ideal approach of where you have guys who if you cover 1 the other one destroys you sort of thing.

You can't double Julio, but he'll kill you 1 on 1, same for Roddy. So I get that, just wondering if Cruz is really that guy who was the special exception that slipped through the cracks and has 'it' in the NFL or if he was just lightning in a bottle. Not that that's a bad thing, sometimes all you need is a little lightning to be Super Bowl Champs, as the Giants well know.

I'm so ready for this game, I wanna see how we stack up. The Falcons have been a frustrating enigma all season, as by their record and the talk on ESPN would indicate, the Giants have too. I wanna see who shows up, and if the best from both squads show up, it should be an epic game.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Falcons chance to win this game, but I was very optimistic last year we could beat Green Bay and I had more gusto than our players did. So I'm hedging my bets a little bit when it comes to the emotional side. Now when Sunday gets here, forget it, all bets are off and I'll invest my emotion cheering like crazy.
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