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Old 01-05-2012, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Oh, I get it, but there's just a difference in the Patriot approach where you've got a buncha average dudes who can beat you (except when they had Randy) but not abuse you and no one is really a star, vs the ideal approach of where you have guys who if you cover 1 the other one destroys you sort of thing.

You can't double Julio, but he'll kill you 1 on 1, same for Roddy. So I get that, just wondering if Cruz is really that guy who was the special exception that slipped through the cracks and has 'it' in the NFL or if he was just lightning in a bottle. Not that that's a bad thing, sometimes all you need is a little lightning to be Super Bowl Champs, as the Giants well know.

I'm so ready for this game, I wanna see how we stack up. The Falcons have been a frustrating enigma all season, as by their record and the talk on ESPN would indicate, the Giants have too. I wanna see who shows up, and if the best from both squads show up, it should be an epic game.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Falcons chance to win this game, but I was very optimistic last year we could beat Green Bay and I had more gusto than our players did. So I'm hedging my bets a little bit when it comes to the emotional side. Now when Sunday gets here, forget it, all bets are off and I'll invest my emotion cheering like crazy.
Maybe he just fits in our scheme. Same with Steve Smith did. Go to a different team and he may not be as productive.

Our WR rules specifically our choice and option routes are one of the most complex in the NFL. That's why Cruz didn't get it early on. So we had to sign Stockley this season. But he got hurt, Cruz stepped up his game and did amazingly well.

In another system, he be just good or avg. So who knows.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Maybe he just fits in our scheme. Same with Steve Smith did. Go to a different team and he may not be as productive.

Our WR rules specifically our choice and option routes are one of the most complex in the NFL. That's why Cruz didn't get it early on. So we had to sign Stockley this season. But he got hurt, Cruz stepped up his game and did amazingly well.

In another system, he be just good or avg. So who knows.
Cruz plays outside too, which is usually much less complicated and is more of a natural receiver than primarily a routerunner. He has shown that he is an athlete and can play with the simplified routes. From my experience, outside receivers count steps, inside receivers go off areas in relation to defenders or yardage. The fact that Cruz can do both very well is very useful for us.

Steve Smith wasn't the threat in the open field that Cruz is and its not even close. Smith ran routes perfectly, but didn't make people miss or use his strength to shed would-be tacklers.

The only receiver that would really benefit from not being in our system is probably Manningham. He is the most elusive with the ball in his hands, and our system is more completion based than west coast where the receivers get the ball in their hands and get some YAC.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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The concept of having a #1 WR, #2 WR etc is a fabricated one by us fans and the media. It really doesn't exist. QBs in the NFL make reads based on the defense and who the ball should go to pre-snap based on the defenses formation. Then they read the defense after the snap, determine where the ball should go, look off the coverage, then deliver the ball to that open window to that read. We designate the #1 WR label to the guy who slides coverages his way, but that's not always the case. Sometimes a different route from someone else will slide coverage. Every play is different.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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The concept of having a #1 WR, #2 WR etc is a fabricated one by us fans and the media. It really doesn't exist. QBs in the NFL make reads based on the defense and who the ball should go to pre-snap based on the defenses formation. Then they read the defense after the snap, determine where the ball should go, look off the coverage, then deliver the ball to that open window to that read. We designate the #1 WR label to the guy who slides coverages his way, but that's not always the case. Sometimes a different route from someone else will slide coverage. Every play is different.
Yes and no. You're right they're going to throw who's open, but the guy who is the primary read on the most plays is your #1 WR. It's media, but it's not just media, you'll hear players talk about it to. There's a reason teams will give up what they will to ensure they have a "#1" WR, and people every year are falling all over themselves to try to find them if they don't have them.

That's a different story though.

I do appreciate the friendly conversation with you guys, much nicer than anything I've found in the Falcons team forum, heady people who can have a good conversation without name calling and trolling people, it's nice.

I'd like to see some of what you guys think about the matchups on Sunday, obviously you're rooting for your team to win, as am I, but are you thinking that with your pass rush coming into it's own against 2 poor offensive lines that now they're going to be as dominant as 2007? Not to say that they don't have everything they need to do that, but the media is playing that angle up big time right now. At least on ESPN everything I've heard is how your front 4 is just going to dominate the Falcons OL.

Fun fact, in the last 13 games, the Atlanta Falcons OL has given up just 13 sacks. At the beginning of the year they were abysmal, but after week 3, they really tightened up. I'm confident in our OL, Jared Allen sack king was completely shut out against the Falcons. Nothing, not even on the stat sheet. So we have the horses to shut anyone down, not that I expect that type of performance, but I'm hopeful for a high quality performance out of our OL.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Most vet QBs don't have a primary read unless they see a blitz coming pre-snap where they'll adjust to have a primary blitz better. For the most part it's only young QBs who can't yet read defenses very well who need to have a set of reads that they need to go through. A vet QB like Eli reads the D before the play, which is when he puts together his progression of who he anticipates to be most likely to get open and then when the play starts he scans the D to compare to what he predicted and delivers the ball where he can. He's not going out there thinking that well on this play Cruz is going to be my #1 read so I gotta see what's up with him once the play starts, if he's not getting open than I move to Nicks, then Ballard, etc. That's something teams do with young QBs to keep things simple for them.

Teams need playmakers at WR and a lot of “#1s” are big time playmakers, which is why they’re so valued. But if you’ve got multiple high caliber weapons you don’t need one of them to be the #1, especially when they’re as similarly talented as Nicks and Cruz, or White and Jones will be in a year or two for you guys. I’d even argue the idea that one of your WRs has to be your #1 is counterproductive when you have multiple guys who are big time weapons, because focusing on having a guy who’s a #1 could lead you to forcing the ball to them, even when the coverage gives a much better shot with your other guys. Sure teams with no weapons desperately want that guy who will force coverages to adjust to him to open up the more mediocre guys they have while also being able to beat that additional attention often enough to keep it on him even if the team is cutting the D up with those lesser guys. That’s what made Randy Moss so valuable, the man just changed coverages like no other. But if you’ve got two guys who can draw that extra coverage and beat it, the idea of having a #1 is pointless. IMO #1 WRs, with rare exception, only exist on teams that don’t have deep receiving corps and so clearly have one guy who’s really good while the rest are mediocre are worse, especially in the age of spread offenses where teams play with 3 or more WRs on the field a lot, since teams can’t get away with only having one stud because they’re only going to throw the ball 25-30 times a game like they used to. The game right now dictates that teams be able to pass the ball as a foundation of their offense and if you’re going to excel at that you need multiple studs, but what you don’t need is a “#1”

I’d say that none of us has any clue what’ll happen in this game. Perry Fewell has been pretty terrible most of the season with a couple exceptions, first Iggles game, Pats game, Jets and Cowboys down the stretch. Now the fact that two of his “good” games came consecutively before the playoffs gives us hope that he’s given up on the “rush 3 drop 7 and make someone stick their thumb up their ass” D. As he’s avoided bringing no pressure more and has even pressured up the middle. I mean he’s even started to work some twists and stunts back into things and we didn’t do that with our lineman for whole games this year. So we have no clue what to expect from the D other than JPP being a monster and Corey Webster continuing to quietly have another top 10 season. Whether we’ll stop the run, bring pressure and cover the middle of the field is a completely unknown factor.

On offense I actually think our running game might get going since it’s been gradually improving the past few weeks and Bradshaw’s been able to build some momentum, but it’s our passing attack and Eli that’ll carry us and while I like a number of your pieces I think both Cruz and Nicks have matchups that they can burn one on one. So I think this game will come down to execution (Nicks better not drop any long TDs) and who has the ball last since I trust Eli completely to drive down the field for a game winning score against your D, and have zero trust in our D preventing Matt Ryan from doing the same.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 01-06-2012, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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That's the thing, most vet QBs don't have a primary read unless they see a blitz coming pre-snap where they'll adjust to have a primary blitz better. For the most part it's only young QBs who can't yet read defenses very well who need to have a set of reads that they need to go through. A vet QB like Eli reads the D before the play, which is when he puts together his progression of who he anticipates to be most likely to get open and then when the play starts he scans the D to compare to what he predicted and delivers the ball where he can. He's not going out there thinking that well on this play Cruz is going to be my #1 read so I gotta see what's up with him once the play starts, if he's not getting open than I move to Nicks, then Ballard, etc. That's something teams do with young QBs to keep things simple for them.
Right, I understand that, I mean I get to watch one of the best in the league at presnap reads week in and week out. But they still have to start their reads somewhere, they go through a progression for sure.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Right, I understand that, I mean I get to watch one of the best in the league at presnap reads week in and week out. But they still have to start their reads somewhere, they go through a progression for sure.
Damn your ninja quoting!

Our Passing game is heavily predicated on Option and choice routes from the WRs which means that the play isn’t really set until everyone has read the D so it’s the D which is everyone’s primary read. That’s why you see so many passes where Eli’s throwing one route and the receiver is running a completely different one, while Mario is the biggest culprit in this Nicks has similar problems sometimes. So there is no really primary read until the play is underway and both eli and the receivers have adjusted their pre-snap reads. Then depending on what route combinations the coverage dictates Eli will have a different primary read.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Damn your ninja quoting!

Our Passing game is heavily predicated on Option and choice routes from the WRs which means that the play isn’t really set until everyone has read the D so it’s the D which is everyone’s primary read. That’s why you see so many passes where Eli’s throwing one route and the receiver is running a completely different one, while Mario is the biggest culprit in this Nicks has similar problems sometimes. So there is no really primary read until the play is underway and both eli and the receivers have adjusted their pre-snap reads. Then depending on what route combinations the coverage dictates Eli will have a different primary read.
lol, my bad! Haha

That's cool, yeah I'm learning quite a few things about you guys from your posters, that seems like an offense that is really going to give our defense fits. Having weatherspoon out there is going to be big for us, and ultimately it's going to come down to can you guys block Abe, can Edwards get some pass rush going, and can anyone stop Babs from getting at Eli up the middle. Or, from the other side do we have anyone who can actually make some plays from the DL and not give Eli a lot of time back there to get into that flow.

I really sort of fear Jacobs in this game, he's a monster, and if he gets mad and downhill, scary thought, we're going to have to get him before he gets going and make him take false steps if we want to be able to stop him. Bradshaw is going to get his, but if we can make you mostly 1 dimensional it'll go a long way in giving us any chance at disrupting your offense.

The Falcons defense has the players to make it happen, but not the coordinator to make it happen consistently. Going to be one of those games that I'm pretty nervous about going in, and hoping that BVG has something stored down in his BVDs to break out for the playoffs. I like Grimes vs Cruz, and I like Franks vs Nicks, I don't like Dunta vs Nicks. I actually don't like Dunta vs anyone, so I hope he proves me wrong cause I expect to see a lot of you guys trying to get Cruz vs Robinson to exploit him.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Everyone is probable for Sunday except for Herzlich who has been ruled out.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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A lot of good posts here. Just got home from the hospital so I will add my two cents.

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Yes and no. You're right they're going to throw who's open, but the guy who is the primary read on the most plays is your #1 WR. It's media, but it's not just media, you'll hear players talk about it to. There's a reason teams will give up what they will to ensure they have a "#1" WR, and people every year are falling all over themselves to try to find them if they don't have them.

That's not always true. It all depends on two things. One being the concept of the play. For example, vertical stretch, horizontal stretch, or high/low. Another is the defense being played.

The "# 1" WR isn't always the primary read. You create the progression based on the concept of the play. You can always have a coverage read based on a certain position too. The # 1 WR may be nothing more than window dressing, which affectively used to take the top off the coverage.

So that's not always true. It depends on the concept of what you're trying to run.

Why would you put Grimes, your best CB on our inside guy? Who gets Mario and Nicks? I am not worried about Abe. I am familiar with him with the Jets. That seems like a decade ago. Abe is old, I am not worried about him. We go against Ware, Babin, Cole, Kerrigan, and Orapo 2 X a year. I am not worried about an injury prone older DE. Let him Jacobs chip him, and knock him on his butt.

You guys need a pass rush or else it's going to be a long day. However, I hate Fewell and he is terrible! If he stinks, then we will have a long day! LOL.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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A lot of good posts here. Just got home from the hospital so I will add my two cents.




That's not always true. It all depends on two things. One being the concept of the play. For example, vertical stretch, horizontal stretch, or high/low. Another is the defense being played.

The "# 1" WR isn't always the primary read. You create the progression based on the concept of the play. You can always have a coverage read based on a certain position too. The # 1 WR may be nothing more than window dressing, which affectively used to take the top off the coverage.

So that's not always true. It depends on the concept of what you're trying to run.

Why would you put Grimes, your best CB on our inside guy? Who gets Mario and Nicks? I am not worried about Abe. I am familiar with him with the Jets. That seems like a decade ago. Abe is old, I am not worried about him. We go against Ware, Babin, Cole, Kerrigan, and Orapo 2 X a year. I am not worried about an injury prone older DE. Let him Jacobs chip him, and knock him on his butt.

You guys need a pass rush or else it's going to be a long day. However, I hate Fewell and he is terrible! If he stinks, then we will have a long day! LOL.
Right, if you read back before that I was commenting the fact that the #1 guy is the one who is the primary read most often, not every time. I get that there isn't a constant progression it'd be too easy to play defense.

As far as not being afraid of Abe, that's just foolish, I promise you if you ignore him, he'll destroy you. Single handedly he can destroy anyone he wants, injury prone is very very old news, he's been exceptionally healthy in Atlanta except his first year here. He got a new trainer who helped him build his core and it's really improved his overall durability.

I agree we need pass rush from elsewhere, and you guys do face some pretty nasty pass rushers throughout the year, but you don't face many people on Abe's level. There just aren't many out there, he's had a pretty down year, but lately he's been exploding, and anyone who knows, knows sacks come in bunches. You guys have had 11 in 2 games, against 2 pretty mediocre offensive lines, but still they come in waves like that. Abe was named defensive player of the week not long ago for having 3.5 sacks and a forced fumble and multiple other TFL.

A major part of why Abe's stats are down are his snaps are down. In the regular season the Falcons run a deep rotation, where they're pulling him off the field 1/2 the defensive snaps. That won't happen in the playoffs, same with Edwards, those 2 will be on the field a lot more often and you'll see a lot more of them. Even with limited snaps he saw 9.5 sacks and 4 FFs. Had he played just 75% of the snaps you're talking about 13+ sacks and another great year for Abe. Don't overlook him, you can scoff at Edwards and his wishy washyness, and you can say we need more than just Abe to step up, but to say that you're going to handle Abe with someone like Jacobs chipping him is a joke. Abe is doubled on nearly every play, if not doubled and chipped and still puts out production.

Don't sleep on Lawrence Sidbury either. In extremely limited action he came up with 11 tackles and 4 sacks, and I'd be shocked if he even had 50 pass rush snaps on the season. The guy can really get after the QB and provides a nice set of fresh legs for Abe. The DC for the Falcons is pretty much a failure and hasn't made use of him to the level I think he should, but putting a lineup of Sid + Abe + Babs + Edwards at DT *SHOULD* be able to get some pressure for in obvious pass rush situations.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Having weatherspoon out there is going to be big for us, and ultimately it's going to come down to can you guys block Abe, can Edwards get some pass rush going, and can anyone stop Babs from getting at Eli up the middle. Or, from the other side do we have anyone who can actually make some plays from the DL and not give Eli a lot of time back there to get into that flow.

I really sort of fear Jacobs in this game, he's a monster, and if he gets mad and downhill, scary thought, we're going to have to get him before he gets going and make him take false steps if we want to be able to stop him. Bradshaw is going to get his, but if we can make you mostly 1 dimensional it'll go a long way in giving us any chance at disrupting your offense.

The Falcons defense has the players to make it happen, but not the coordinator to make it happen consistently. Going to be one of those games that I'm pretty nervous about going in, and hoping that BVG has something stored down in his BVDs to break out for the playoffs. I like Grimes vs Cruz, and I like Franks vs Nicks, I don't like Dunta vs Nicks. I actually don't like Dunta vs anyone, so I hope he proves me wrong cause I expect to see a lot of you guys trying to get Cruz vs Robinson to exploit him.
Our linebackers aren't as terrible in this new scheme that Fewell is developing, but they are not up to the level of your linebackers I feel. Spoon was my favorite player in that draft (2010). I did a comparison to Jon Beason and they were almost identical players. The only difference is Spoon is more adept in pass coverage and Beason is better versus the run. Anyway, I knew he was going to be good, and him and Lofton are both tackling machines. I don't think either is really good at blitzing, at least not from what I've seen.

This likely means that most of your pressure will have to come from your front 4, and although the Giants's OL has been inconsistent, I would rather pick the giants in the DL vs OL battle for both sides of the ball.

Grimes kindof scares me. He's soo fluid and athletic, good ball skills, he's just short. Dunta, meh, he's above average. Decoud and Moore are quietly becoming one of the better young safety duo's in the league. I've never seen franks so I can't really give any input there. As far as our DB's, Webster is very good and consistent, i think he'll do a pretty good job on White. However Ross is terrible, he just doesn't handle strong receivers well (or it seems any receiver lately). Amukamara in man coverage I would be much more comfortable with, but I doubt that will happen. Our safeties are probably more valuable to us due to their ability to do a wide range of things such as play nickel or "bison" linebacker, nickelback, and play a joker-type role like Rolle did last week.

Wide receiver-wise I think it is pretty even, maybe giving the giants a little edge if Manningham plays. Julio has shown he can be a huge threat with that speed and physicality, and Roddy has had a tough season but still produced. Douglas is underrated and underutilized in your offense I feel, he really could be an X-factor in all of this. That said, I think it is pretty even. Both teams have playmakers on the outside, and at least 3 viable options.

Tightends should not even be remotely close. HOF vs. ? FB is interesting, from a run blocking perspective Mughelli is clearly superior, but passcatching-wise I am willing to say Hynoski is about as valuable. If Snelling plays some FB, then that's a different story (run-blocking would be both average). Obvious advantage to Atlanta in both though.

QB- Giants
RB- slight advantage Atlanta
OL- even
ST- no clue, prob even or adv atlanta


Overall, everything is pretty close. (I realize I didn't break everything down)
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JPP All Pro 1st team. Cruz All Pro 2nd team.
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Right, if you read back before that I was commenting the fact that the #1 guy is the one who is the primary read most often, not every time. I get that there isn't a constant progression it'd be too easy to play defense.

As far as not being afraid of Abe, that's just foolish, I promise you if you ignore him, he'll destroy you. Single handedly he can destroy anyone he wants, injury prone is very very old news, he's been exceptionally healthy in Atlanta except his first year here. He got a new trainer who helped him build his core and it's really improved his overall durability.

I agree we need pass rush from elsewhere, and you guys do face some pretty nasty pass rushers throughout the year, but you don't face many people on Abe's level. There just aren't many out there, he's had a pretty down year, but lately he's been exploding, and anyone who knows, knows sacks come in bunches. You guys have had 11 in 2 games, against 2 pretty mediocre offensive lines, but still they come in waves like that. Abe was named defensive player of the week not long ago for having 3.5 sacks and a forced fumble and multiple other TFL.

A major part of why Abe's stats are down are his snaps are down. In the regular season the Falcons run a deep rotation, where they're pulling him off the field 1/2 the defensive snaps. That won't happen in the playoffs, same with Edwards, those 2 will be on the field a lot more often and you'll see a lot more of them. Even with limited snaps he saw 9.5 sacks and 4 FFs. Had he played just 75% of the snaps you're talking about 13+ sacks and another great year for Abe. Don't overlook him, you can scoff at Edwards and his wishy washyness, and you can say we need more than just Abe to step up, but to say that you're going to handle Abe with someone like Jacobs chipping him is a joke. Abe is doubled on nearly every play, if not doubled and chipped and still puts out production.

Don't sleep on Lawrence Sidbury either. In extremely limited action he came up with 11 tackles and 4 sacks, and I'd be shocked if he even had 50 pass rush snaps on the season. The guy can really get after the QB and provides a nice set of fresh legs for Abe. The DC for the Falcons is pretty much a failure and hasn't made use of him to the level I think he should, but putting a lineup of Sid + Abe + Babs + Edwards at DT *SHOULD* be able to get some pressure for in obvious pass rush situations.

I am not just in awe of that pass rush even with Abe. If he comes back and has an amazing game, then I will tip my hat to him and the team and say good show. But I am not scared of him or Edwards or Sidbury, lol. Maybe they may do well, very well in fact. Like I said, if that's the case then props to your team. I'd take my chances with that. And our OL isn't the same as before, so these guys very well may get sacks.

You need that defensive line to play out of their minds to pressure our offense. If that can happen then I can see a blow out. I trust our defense the least specifically Perry freaking fewell!
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Now I know why Mario runs the wrong routes! They have not labeled! Duh!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 01-06-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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I am not just in awe of that pass rush even with Abe. If he comes back and has an amazing game, then I will tip my hat to him and the team and say good show. But I am not scared of him or Edwards or Sidbury, lol. Maybe they may do well, very well in fact. Like I said, if that's the case then props to your team. I'd take my chances with that. And our OL isn't the same as before, so these guys very well may get sacks.

You need that defensive line to play out of their minds to pressure our offense. If that can happen then I can see a blow out. I trust our defense the least specifically Perry freaking fewell!
I'm with you on that for the most part and I would be confident in my team to, as I am. But if I knew I had Abe coming I would be doing anything but dismissing him. He's an absolute monster and he's really turned it on the 2nd half and even more late in the season. Much like your DL has improved over the last few weeks, ATL has done the same, just not to the same level.

We started just slacking against Tampa, if our defense plays with that intensity they did for the first quarter before we started pulling starters, I trust that against any team, anywhere. I know the Bucs are horrible, but our defense took them out of everything they wanted to do, then we started sitting starters. I just hope they don't have a hangover after only playing 1 quarter this week, like they did with having 11 days off before playing the Stains.

Either way here's to a good game, and I think we've both got reasons to be optimistic.
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David Diehl said on NFLN that the best starting 5 OLmen were playing now, does anyone believe this?
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David Diehl said on NFLN that the best starting 5 OLmen were playing now, does anyone believe this?
I do. I like Petrus a lot but Boothe has been sexy. Baas has also been way above average ever since the 1st quarter of the Jets game. We are peaking.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4tIrjBDkk
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Good luck and a clean game today fellas!
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Brent Grimes out, wow that changes a lot
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Yeah that's a big time kick in the balls! Now what? Who covers who?
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Yeah that's a big time kick in the balls! Now what? Who covers who?
I am guessing Dunta on Cruz, Owens/Franks on Nicks, the other one will be covering Manningham. This is a game that Barden should come in and dominate, him and Manningham will have very favorable matchups.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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nevermind, Barden is inactive?
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