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Old 09-30-2013, 12:46 AM    (permalink
cgf (Rosebud)
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The last thing we need on this team is another damn DE! So many other spots that need help especially the OL. So yeah, what the heck will Clowney do? How about we get two good coordinators that actually create the competitive adv. via Xs and Os.

If we get Clowney, he better play from Day 1. Old man Coughlin better not red shirt him. Why put JPP in it? He had 1 good season. Let's see him do it again. All these DEs striking out for us. In the end, Qbs are getting rid of the ball quicker to neutralize our pass rush. Quick concepts are hurting the time we need to get to the qb. Moreover, teams have been out playing us.

We can kick in Pugh at guard or center. Beatty Id look for an upgrade for, and have him compete. No one on this OL should be safe in terms of their job. I don't want Clowney. If we do draft him fine, but I hope we actually address spots we need to be addressed.
We don't need our OL to be great, just not to suck anymore. So wasting the opportunity to get a true league wide star the way we did when JPP fell to us to grab an OL would be a huge mistake. Like seriously, how much of your bitching about our defense has to do with our lack of pass rush? And you want to pass on setting up our pass rush to dominate until eli retires? I know your an offensive guy, but let's be reasonable here. This team won't be picking in the top 5 often, if at all, until Eli retires, why waste that on a position that can be adequately filled with lower picks when we could add a real gamechanger, who also fills a need?

Great starting guards still go in the 20+ pick range, and if we're in position to pick Clowney, our second round pick will be in the low 30s, so there is a good chance there will be a very good interior offensive lineman who's every bit as good at his position as most top ten OL. Sure we can move Pugh to OG and use a top 10 pick on a tackle, but why would we do that when Pugh's the one guy on our OL who's looked good this year and we could do as much good picking a guard or center in the second round?

It just makes no sense to me. Most top ten OTs end up disappointments, far more often than elite pass rushers, especially elite pass rushers that land in as good a situation as Clowney would joining JPP, Kiwi and Moore.

Picks this high really should only be used on QBs, pass rushers, WRs, CBs and Earl Thomas's. Everything else is less important and can be more easily filled with later picks and shrewd fa pick ups. If you have the chance to add a superstar at one of those spots, pacing on him for any other position for need just leads to failure and missed opportunities. If we sort the OL out we won't be this bad again any time soon, and a JPP won't fall out of the top ten again, as Ansah proved this year, so if we get a shot at Clowney and we don't take it for any reason other than we took a QB because Eli had a career ending injury, it'll be a colossal mistake.

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Old 09-30-2013, 04:11 AM    (permalink
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There is still a lot of football left in the season and I do think we can turn things around. Admittedly it is unlikely that we will be in the playoff picture.

One thing to consider is that there is very likely going to be changes after the season. Quite frankly from this point on, everyone's jobs are on the line. If there is an upside from this disasterous start, we will see the character of this team and individual players when the chips are down.

What ever happens remains to be seen, sure we have a lot of work to do, but we also have some good pieces to rebuild around, whatever changes occur in the off-season.

The other factor is that it looks like we are in good cap shape for next year.

Here is part of an article by Pat Traina on our cap

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Good News Ahead, Giants Fans

Although the Giants don’t currently have money to extend any current contracts, the front office has made a good effort to limit the amount of dead money due to hit the 2014 cap, which should result in plenty of space to take care of a lot of upcoming contracts—and then some.

According to OvertheCap.com, the Giants currently have $106.374 million committed to their Top 51 contracts in 2014. The "Top 51 Rule," which is in effect from the first day of the offseason through the end of training camp, only calculates the 51 highest contracts on record for that year. Within those figures are base salary, prorated signing bonus, workout bonuses and any incentives offered to each player for that year.

One other thing to consider regarding the Giants' number is that they could potentially see a significant increase in their available cap space for 2014—and that’s before the new cap figure is announced, before any leftover cap money from this year is factored in and before any incentives not earned by players are credited back to the cap.

Specifically, there is approximately $11.5 million of potential cap savings that can be recognized if the 2014 contract years of tight end Brandon Myers, guard Chris Snee and cornerback Corey Webster are voided.

If that happens, the Giants' Top 51 commitment will shrink to approximately $94.874 million, which, if we use the current $123 million cap figure as a basis, would give the Giants roughly $28.125 million to spend.

That amount should be more than enough for them to secure the services of core players in need of contracts after the 2013 season and cover external free agent expenses. It should also extend players such as defensive end Jason Pierre-Paul, safety Antrel Rolle and cornerback Prince Amukamara, who, in 2014, will be entering the final year of their respective contracts.

Taking things a step further, the Giants could clear even more room if they are able to extend the contract of quarterback Eli Manning, whose deal is set to end in 2015. If they can do that, they would almost certainly be able to lower Manning’s projected 2014 cap figure of $20.4 million.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...for-their-buck
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:19 AM    (permalink
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We need a change desperately. I think Coughlin retires after this year and we get a whole new coaching staff
We do need changes, I am not convinced a complete overhaul is needed, I want to see how the team responds over the back half of the season.

The real issue we have at the moment is a lack of talent at certain positions. with a good draft and decent free agency (we will have some cap room to work with) there are plenty of positive signs.

The playoffs may be a long shot, but there is still plenty to play for. This team needs to fight for pride, I firmly believe there is plenty of fight in this team yet.
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:12 AM    (permalink
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I have been watching this tank for Clowney talk for the last few days and just want to offer my 2 cents on the matter.

I am thinking if the Giants end up with that top 3 pick their best option is to trade back and here is why. Their really deep needs are linebacker, DT and OG which are all at best late 1st round picks as is.

I mean yes its a wet dream paring a healthy JPP with a possible can't miss DE but let me Put up a list of people taken 2nd round or later in recent NFL history.

Jared Allen (4th)
Robert Mathis (5th)
Trent Cole (5th)
Cameron wake (undrafted)
Justin tuck (3rd)
Michael Strahan (2nd)
Osi Umenyiora (2nd)
Jason Taylor (3rd)
Elvis Dumervil (4th)
Chris Clemmons (undrafted)

I really look at Clowney and I see Peppers 2.0 He will be good but he just doesnt play with that chip on his shoulder. Peppers should be right now in the conversation with Bruce Smith and Reggie White. But people can make the argument that players like Allen, Ware, and a few others have a more prolific career.

I was so big on Watt a few years ago and was so happy he didnt end up in Dallas. He has that motor and just ability to push himself and i do not see that with Clowney.

The giants i think in that scenario should trade down aim for Nix or that DT out of FSU i cant recall his name right now or the OG out of Baylor.
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:08 AM    (permalink
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I am not a fan of the tank for Clowney talk either. Let's play the season and see where we stand.

If we draft early enough to have a shot at Clowney then we have plenty of options.

Trading down should be on the table, particularly if we change systems.

I do think this team needs to reload rather than rebuild.

We do need to upgrade the offensive line at some point, we do need upgrades at LB and we need to look at replacing aging vets like Tuck and Webster.

The problem is that our defence is built around the pass rush, and for whatever reason that just isn't dominant like it has been in the past. Adding a guy like Clowney could be just the kind of talent that could set us up for a long time with Pierre-Paul and Moore.
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:41 AM    (permalink
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I mean, I don't think we will be bad enough to get Clowney. You'd more than likely have to trade up for him.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Welp....

What can ya do? I can talk about everything that's wrong, but we're all intelligent people here, we all know what's wrong.

It's just time for a change, and a fresh start. I'm personally hoping we tank for Clowney, but I also know that may not be entirely realistic.

I just want good players. We have a need at DE, DT, LB, S, CB on defense. OL, RB, possibly TE, and possibly WR on offense.

We have a lot of needs. Realistically we won't get to all of them. I think we have to make do at WR with whatever we have coming into next season, I think we make do at TE.

But interior OL needs an overhaul. RB we can get away with mediocrity for now, gotta give Wilson one more year and hope Cox can be our 2nd wheel.

So on offense really we need to overhaul the interior OL. All 3 interior positions.

On defense, we need another pass rusher, we can make do at DT for now but it wouldn't hurt to get another young body in there (we're old at DT), we desperately need linebackers, and we need safeties.

We can try to get away with our CB group for another year. Thomas, you gotta pray his body holds up. Prince is a stud in the making I'm not concerned about him, Hoseley has potential but the man just can't stay healthy so there's concern there.

Safeties, we need a whole new set really. Rolle is getting older and Mundy is just a bandaid. We have a ton of needs on defense.

Offense, I think the talent is there for the most part, but we desperately need a scheme change. We kept going vertical STILL, even with our issues along the OL. We just have bad coaches.

I love Coughlin, he's a dinosaur but he's OUR dinosaur, and I love him. But it's time for a change.

He had a great run here, but it's time for a change. At the very least, fire both his coordinators like we did in 07. But we need change.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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I think we might need another CB and WR as well. Webster will be cut or just not re-signed, I forget if he is a FA or not.

I also think we should let Nicks walk. Well actually I'd like to see what kind of offense we'd run. Between the injuries and Nicks lazy route running, which is a new growing annoyance of mine, I'm just getting tired of him.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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I didn't get to watch the game yesterday, I just heard the radio broadcoast. Was Nicks jogging out there again?
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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I didn't get to watch the game yesterday, I just heard the radio broadcoast. Was Nicks jogging out there again?
He just seems shocked when someone makes a play from behind on a curl when he doesn't come back to the ball. All his routes are rounded. He just never seems open. Any pass he catches looks amazing because he never has separation. I think it doesn't help that Cruz is so sharp on his routes. By comparison Nicks looks worse. And I'm worried he's a bad influence on Randle.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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I should also say I'd love to have Webster back but at a very low cost. Some of these older players will have to look in the mirror and realize their worth. Tuck too. Didn't really focus on him yesterday though.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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I just get the impression that a lot of players on this team are just satisfied and they don't have that fire or hunger anymore.

They saw too much success and in NY, success can eat you alive if you let it. I think that happened to some players on this team.

And some just got old. And we don't have young replacements. Say what you want about Reese, and I'm probably Reese's biggest supporter, but he's done a mediocre job this offseason. You can argue that he had a F for an offseason.

The kicker we signed is awful. He didn't address LB at all, we have a lot of age at DT with no long term solutions outside of Hankerson, we have age in the secondary with only Prince and maybe Hosely as potential long term solutions, we have age at DE, we haven't addressed OL properly and it's showing.

We have a very old defense with no youth to come in and step up, and we have no OL. That's on Reese.

So he needs to have a lights out offseason or else he starts getting his name on the hot seat as well. I trust Reese, and I believe he'll fix this. But it's time to start laying some blame on him as well.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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We do need changes, I am not convinced a complete overhaul is needed, I want to see how the team responds over the back half of the season.

The real issue we have at the moment is a lack of talent at certain positions. with a good draft and decent free agency (we will have some cap room to work with) there are plenty of positive signs.

The playoffs may be a long shot, but there is still plenty to play for. This team needs to fight for pride, I firmly believe there is plenty of fight in this team yet.
A longshot? That's a huge understatement. This team looks like they can't win 2 games, let alone 10. As I said before, unless the division blows and we're the 2010-11 Seahawks we are not making the playoffs. And right now I don't believe there is plenty of fight in this team, they look dead out there
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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The thing that bothers me about this team is, when they quit, they completely shut down.

All 4 losses, we had a chance going into either midway through the 3rd quarter or 4th.

Once that back breaking touchdown happened and the game looked over, the defense just completely folds up and lets the opponent score at will to end the game, and makes the score look worse than most of the game.

It's that quit mentality that really bothers me. This team just lacks the fight that you need to be great. And I honestly think that comes with complacency that has occurred bc of recent success.

They just don't care. They don't care enough to fight through the last whistle.

I hate to say it, but this team is gutless right now.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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For example, look at the Sunday night game. It was pretty much over with 4 minutes to go right? What did the Falcons do? They almost pull off a miracle comeback. Why? Bc they never gave up.

If you put this 2013 Giants team in the same exact scenario you know what happens? The Patriots score another 14 points to end the game. Bc when things look out of reach this team just shuts down.

That's the true problem with this team. Yes schemes and coaching are to blame too, but the deeper problem is the quit they show.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Which means they've quit on their coach. Time to change.

Also one of biggest issues with Fewell over the years has his apparent lack of changes during the game. It shows too, look how much we've given up in the first half vs the second half. It boggles my mind.

Amazingly if Denver beats Dallas (likely) and we win against the Eagles, we will be a game out of first. How is that possible. The division is so bad this year.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Yeah this division sucks so much that even if Dallas holds onto first they may end up 7-9.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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I think I saw a stat saying we were 3-9 in our last 12 games going back to last season. I hope we stay with this OL now even if Snee and Baas comes back. We need continuity on the OL. Changing back yet again would hurt that. Stick with this OL and ride it out and see where it goes.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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I'm usually not a big FA guy, but this year it's important we hit it hard. I don't think there's a single FA that it's been as important that we sign as Alex Mack would be. If he joined Beatty and Pugh we'd pretty much have a competent OL right there. Stick Booty in at one guard spot and a day two rookie or other cheap just solid vet at the other and let them gel. That right there would fix our offense almost completely.

I'd love to sign Byrd, but it's Mack who to me is the guy who'd just change our team completely if we could get him, even over Jarius.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:48 AM    (permalink
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Why would the Browns let Mack walk?
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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Why would the Browns let Mack walk?
Why would Mack want to stay? It works both ways. Although they are 2-2 so I really shouldn't talk. But they're still the Browns.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:02 AM    (permalink
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It's the NFL. Teams can go from bad to good very easily and you can certainly make the case that the Browns are more on the upswing than we are.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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It's the NFL. Teams can go from bad to good very easily and you can certainly make the case that the Browns are more on the upswing than we are.
How many times have the Browns been in a upswing over the last 10 years? 2 or 3? I'll believe it when I see it. They still don't have a QB and they are basically admitting they are starting from scratch.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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It's not like we're going to be the only team who wants him either. If he hits FA who knows how many teams will be on the bidding.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Why would Mack want to stay? It works both ways. Although they are 2-2 so I really shouldn't talk. But they're still the Browns.
They have the franchise tag which is cheap for centers, and they don't have anybody else to use it on plus they'll have about $30 million+ in cap space. You guys getting Mack is an enormous long shot.
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