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Old 04-01-2011, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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I don't recall. I look at numerous sites every day, so I would not be able to pin this down easily. I would doubt (from memory) that all of what you highlighted came from the same source, but I suppose it's possible.
I've not read any source (outside one which I don't find to be reliable) who said that Cam didn't do well in the chalk talk. Although, the feelings were mixed about his interviews some loved him some hated him. Everyone loved Gabbert apparently. But to come to the rest of the Newton vs Gabbert thing.

Is some of the bad talk based on race? On some teams sure. But for the most part no and I would doubt that this is true in the media. But I also believe that most of the personality knocks on cam are extrapolations of the off the field issues. I don't think Cam is being called out by team mates or coaches.
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:24 AM    (permalink
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That's the problem. They're not doing it fairly. You look at the film, and you see how Newton handles himself on the field compared to Gabbert... You see the split-second decisions Newton makes under pressure compared to the ones Gabbert makes...and you see the difference between a National Championship and the Insight Bowl loser.

I don't really care if you say you don't think Newton can read defenses and make decisions under pressure in the NFL. But when you turn around and say that Gabbert can. That just doesn't make sense.
I honestly don't see what Blaine Gabbert has to do with how one evaluated Cam Newton? If you put a gun to my head, I wouldn't bet on either guy to be a successful NFL QB. If you made me pick one, I'd probably go with Gabbert but that has more to do with the off-the-field stuff and Newton's self-inflicted ascension to iconhood than anything Gabbert did or didn't do. One-read spread guys can adapt to the NFL, but it's pretty hard to project whether they can or can't. Everything else being equal I'd rather have QB from a pro-ready offense, but I wouldn't entirely rule out a more talented player just because he's a spread guy.

In my personal opinion, the top QBs in this draft are easily capable of getting more than a handful of coaches and GMs fired. I'm sure glad my team lacks both the position and the need that would convince them to draft one.

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Old 04-01-2011, 08:16 AM    (permalink
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I honestly don't see what Blaine Gabbert has to do with how one evaluated Cam Newton? If you put a gun to my head, I wouldn't bet on either guy to be a successful NFL QB. If you made me pick one, I'd probably go with Gabbert but that has more to do with the off-the-field stuff and Newton's self-inflicted ascension to iconhood than anything Gabbert did or didn't do. One-read spread guys can adapt to the NFL, but it's pretty hard to project whether they can or can't. Everything else being equal I'd rather have QB from a pro-ready offense, but I wouldn't entirely rule out a more talented player just because he's a spread guy.
???

They're both spread guys. That's the point. Cam Newton was the much better QB in the same style of offense. He made better, quicker decisions, he used the pocket better, and he threw the ball better.

I understand that the off-field stuff is a concern for many, but that shouldn't be affecting the evaluation of the player on film...which it clearly has when you see people gushing about how smart Gabbert is and then questioning whether Cam Newton can transition to the NFL when, on the field and on film, it's very clear that Newton is the more intelligent football player.

And I like Gabbert, and I think this is a great QB class. You've got 4 guys with amazing potential to be franchise QBs and a 5th (CK) who could become one pretty easily.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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They're both spread guys. That's the point. Cam Newton was the much better QB in the same style of offense.
That might be technically true, but the reason Newton was arguably better was because of his running ability, which isn't going to translate to the NFL. On a 1-10 scale, I'd much rather have a "7" Gabbert in a spread system where he primarily threw the ball than a "9" Newton in one where he primarily ran. Newton looked at one option and if covered he just ran.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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I would like it if there were more successful black Quarterbacks in the NFL....
^ Why is that? ^

Would you also like to see more white cornerbacks and running backs in the NFL?

Andre Ware
Akili Smith
Byron Leftwich
Daunte Culpepper
Donovan McNabb
Jamarcus Russell
Jason Campbell
Vince Young
Tarvaris Jackson
Kordell Stewart
Steve McNair
Randall Cunningham
Michael Vick

All these guys were 1st round picks except T-Jack, Cunningham & Kordell who all went in round 2.

Remember, scouts somehow moved the athletic QB Spergon Wynn ahead of Tom Brady in the 2000 draft. Think there was some racism involved there?

Show me the white RBs and CBs taken in the first round since Warren Moon left the league........ So, who should be playing the race card?

Now Tebow ran his offense at Florida more successfully (and longer) than Newton did at Auburn, same conference.
Tebow was ripped to shreds for his throwing motion, and ability to transition to an NFL offense. His character was as good as it gets though, and he was a proven winner and great teammate.
Still, he was drafted lower than Cam Newton will be... yet both guys were disected like a test-subject. That's just how it is... there are negatives said about every single prospect from Aaron Rodgers to Patrick Peterson.
And as far as character and quick release go, Newton offers plenty of reasons for people to red-flag him.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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I do think there is a race issue when people compare Gabbert and Newton. They played in the same style of offense, and Newton was more productive and did more within it to win games for his team, but people act like Newton is a massive project and Gabbert is pro-ready. Makes no sense.
How did they play in the same offense? There are so many different types of offensive schemes that are filed under the term "spread" and they aren't even remotely the same. It would be like comparing what Mike Leach did at Tech to what RichRod runs, two totally different things. What they were running at Auburn was like what they were running at UF with Tebow, spread option, only updated to have even more wrinkles. Cam Newton had 200 less pass attempts and twice as many rushes, and most of those rushes were by design, Gabbert had alot that were just scrambles on passing plays. Not even close to the same type of offense, except that both quarterbacks lined up in shotgun. Its obvious that Newton had the better coordinator, go look at every college Gus has been to, every single one of those quarterbacks has put up ridiculous stats. He has modified it based on the strength of the quarterback, and with Newton he did more option stuff.

When Gus was at Tulsa, they were number 1 in total offense in the nation, the first 5,000 yard passer, 1,000 yard rusher and 3 1,000 yard receivers in one season in ncaa history. In 2008 they had the 2nd highest scoring offense in college history, 570 yards per game, and yet they were ranked 5th in rushing offense. The Tulsa qbs ranked 3rd in the nation for passing efficiency. In his first season at Auburn he broke the single season total offense record, they were ranked 16th in rushing offense, which was 69th the year before. He managed to get Chris Todd to break the Auburn single season td record and 8 yards per attempt. Chris Todd should have never even been starting for an FBS program. He couldn't make it at Tech and he was pretty mediocre in juco, yet he was able to start for Auburn and win 8 games that season.

David Johnson was a nobody, even at Tulsa, and threw for 4,000 yards 46 tds 18 int. 10 yards per completion. 64.5 percent completion ratio. Where is Paul Smith now? threw under 3,000 yards both years starting before Gus got there, all of a sudden he was a 5,000 yard passer, 9 yards per attempt, 60 percent completion ratio with 47 tds, thats more than he had the two previous years combined, + an extra 17. Where is Paul Smith?

I see the same knock on Newton that I saw on Tebow. Gus was able to make average passers put up monster stats in the passing game, and he was able to get 1,000+ yard rushers out of mediocre backs. I know the SEC is tougher, but he improved Chris Todd for christ sake. How do we know those passing stats aren't inflated because of the scheme ran by Gus? if David Johnson can throw for 10 yards per attempt with a 64.5 completion ratio and not even be considered as a legit qb prospect in the NFL, where does that leave Newton? on his athletic ability alone and phsyical mesaurables.

2010 was the first time Gus had a guy that could run and throw. The only problem is Tebow did it for 4 years. Newton did it for 1. How would you compare Tebow's character/work ethic to Tebow? I would say Gus is a much better coordinator than what they had at UF under Tebow, because Meyer rarely ran the inverted zone read, which is perfect for a bigger guy that is better inside the tackles, is basically the zone read inverted, hence the name, the qb is the dive back and the other backs are the outside guys on a jet sweep. Instead, most of the option running plays were Tebow in traditional zone read, with 180 pound dive backs and Tebow going to the outside. It woulve made a hell of a lot more sense to have Tebow have the option to go up the middle with Demps the outside threat for the majority of the plays. The main plays that Tebow ran up the middle were qb power and qb draw, and those were the ones he had the most success, although he did break off some decent runs on traditional zone read.

Btw I am not defending Gabbert, just pointing out the flaws in Newton.

btw, if you want to throw the race card out there, why did people want Tebow to make the switch to tight end or fullback, not even halfback, he has similar measurables to Blount, both big, both ran in the same range in the 40. Tebow had THE top 3 cone drill time and a vertical that shows he is explosive. His 10 yard split was pretty much identical to Mark Ingram's, for the people that say "its more about 10 yard splits and initial burst". He could be a runner similar to Eddie George. Tebow had a great CAREER (not just one season) as a QUARTERBACK in the similar offense that Newton runs and had a lot of people doubting him.

The same with Jake Locker, why do people want him to switch to Safety? I don't have one single doubt that Jake Locker wouldve put up great stats playing at Auburn, or for another coach like RichRod and that Newton wouldve had a similar career playing at Washington. Does the NFL not want a dual threat qb that is white? Matt Jones to wide receiver, Eric Crouch to wide receiver, Scott Frost to safety. See how ridiculous the race card sounds?

as far as the diss that the one writer made, he is being bashed on it by espn and other sites for having such a negative opinion on Newton, like it isn't allowed, and tons of people are bashing Gabbert. Face it, if you are projected to be one of the top quarterbacks taken, there are going to be alot of people saying stuff like this, positives, negatives amplified times 10.

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Old 04-01-2011, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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that's racism man, i love to racism bro

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Old 04-01-2011, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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that's racism man, i love to racism bro

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Eastbound and Down is soooo good!

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Old 04-01-2011, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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^ Why is that? ^

Would you also like to see more white cornerbacks and running backs in the NFL?
Yes, I'd like to generate enough examples to get rid of every argument of the form "he can't play [position] he's [race]."
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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That might be technically true, but the reason Newton was arguably better was because of his running ability, which isn't going to translate to the NFL. On a 1-10 scale, I'd much rather have a "7" Gabbert in a spread system where he primarily threw the ball than a "9" Newton in one where he primarily ran. Newton looked at one option and if covered he just ran.
Malzahn was on Mike & Mike this morning and he ripped this opinion to shreds. He said essentially they never ran a pass play at Auburn where there was only one option Cam was meant to read before taking off.

Yes there were designed runs in Malzahn's offense, and some run plays that were busted scrambles by Newton.

But people seem to ignore how many times Cam hung in the pocket, avoided rushers and scrambled behind the LOS to buy time for his WRs to get open.

Run first QBs from my experience tend to flee when defenders cross into the backfield, similar to Gabbert.

I'd rather have the guy who's shown the ability to hang in the pocket while a defender unloads on him, which happened in almost every game last year that NEwton played, instead of a guy who loses his lunch at the slightest him of pressure.

Give Newton some credit, the guy set an NCAA record for passing efficiency last season; he's simply the best example of a true dual-threat QB who excels in both aspects of the game.

If any other QB in this class had set the NCAA record for passing efficiency, you know it would be one of the first accomplishments listed by pundits for that player.

Has anyone heard one TV draft analyst mention once that Cam set the NCAA record for passing efficiency??

No you haven't.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Let's take the word of guys like Chizik and Malzahn with a grain of salt. They have a horse in this race and motive to want Newton to go as high as possible because they helps them recruit.

Also, I don't doubt that plays were drawn up to have multiple reads, Newton just didn't make them. Anyone who watched the guy play knows that. Sometimes he barely made one read.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Malzahn was on Mike & Mike this morning and he ripped this opinion to shreds. He said essentially they never ran a pass play at Auburn where there was only one option Cam was meant to read before taking off.

Yes there were designed runs in Malzahn's offense, and some run plays that were busted scrambles by Newton.

But people seem to ignore how many times Cam hung in the pocket, avoided rushers and scrambled behind the LOS to buy time for his WRs to get open.

Run first QBs from my experience tend to flee when defenders cross into the backfield, similar to Gabbert.

I'd rather have the guy who's shown the ability to hang in the pocket while a defender unloads on him, which happened in almost every game last year that NEwton played, instead of a guy who loses his lunch at the slightest him of pressure.

Give Newton some credit, the guy set an NCAA record for passing efficiency last season; he's simply the best example of a true dual-threat QB who excels in both aspects of the game.

If any other QB in this class had set the NCAA record for passing efficiency, you know it would be one of the first accomplishments listed by pundits for that player.

Has anyone heard one TV draft analyst mention once that Cam set the NCAA record for passing efficiency??

No you haven't.
I never knew that he set the passing efficiency record... hah.

...that said, even as one who has steadfastly stood in Newton's corner, even I have to admit that that stat is more than just a little deceiving because his system and the number of times he threw the ball in comparison to college QBs of yester-year that puts him at a distinct advantage. There are a zillion college QBs (ok, maybe not a zillion, but you get the point) who have been better passers, so let's not put him in Peyton Manning aire yet, just because he holds that all time record for passing efficiency.

His quarterback passing skills are in need of a lot of improvement. I applaud him for his movement in the pocket, but it's his ability to scan and read the field to find an open receiver in the short time allowed that needs a lot of work. He's got to get smarter about reading defenses, calling audibles, and simply making the secondary react to him, rather than the other way around. He's gotten by in college by having success bulldozing his way downfield with his feet... but that can't be his go to escape move in the NFL. He's got to sling the ball more often than he did in college. While I agree with you in that I don't think it was as simple as 1 read or take off and run type system, he was in, I don't think it was overly complex either. His accuracy has to improve. He's got to take advantage of using his feet to open up the pass more. Too often, once he got his feet moving, he was too committed to finish off the play by running the ball. He's got to make defenses believe that he won't run all the time. He's got to trick them into thinking he will run, then draw the defenders up and then pass to the open man. He needs to look at old Steve McNair tape. I think he was hesitant to do this as much because of his accuracy issues...I dunno, just a guess. He's got to correct his technique though.

To his credit though, I think it's still pretty remarkable that he got that record considering the weak surrounding cast that he had. Locker gets that excuse, but I don't know why Newton doesn't. Maybe he had a little better cast than Locker... but the SEC is also tougher.

All in all, Newton has a lot of raw talent and needs to be coached up. His upside is higher than any other QB in this draft, but his floor is not the highest. If you want a safer QB, go with Locker or Mallet. There's no part of me that believes in Gabbert.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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perhaps that's because he didn't set the record?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passer_rating

so, no, it's not surprising that no one has mentioned him breaking that record.

further, i don't much care what malzahn says the offense was designed for; i can remember, off hand, just a couple of plays where newton even registered a secondary passing option. malzahn can protest all he wants that the other options were there, but if newton never bothered looking at them, what difference does it make?
...grrrr....

Funbuncher, why did you make up that lie???
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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I didn't realize they factored bowl game performances into the final passing efficiency rating. Of course they would in hindsight.


182.05 is still remarkable for a guy characterized as a run first QB.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Has anyone heard one TV draft analyst mention once that Cam set the NCAA record for passing efficiency??

No you haven't.
He didn't set the record, Colt Brennan did, where is he at? Newton didn't even lead in passer efficiency THIS year, Kellen Moore did, and that was with more pass attempts. David Johnson who played under Gus at Tulsa had a passer efficiency rating of 179, why is that never mentioned? Where is he at? oh thats right barely got a shot as an UDFA. What about Paul Smith before him at Tulsa, where did he go? Oh thats right, an UDFA to the Jaguars on the scout team before he was waived to make room for Todd Bouman. And he is now in the CFL.

The only thing that sets Cam apart is his athletic ability, and ability to run. The system Gus runs is designed to put up monster stats, no matter who is playing qb, he will change the scheme to suit their strengths, what he did passing at Auburn doesn't mean nuch as far as the NFL is concerned, because nothing they ran resembles an NFL offense.

There are different types of spread offenses, which some people seem to get confused about, there is the zone read/option kind that guys like RichRod runs, the Airraid that Leach runs, and then stuff like what Oklahoma ran has pro concepts that the Saints/Patriots/Colts run as well as what McCoy was running at Texas. No two spread teams are identical, although the system at Auburn is similar to what Urban Meyer had for Tebow. Gus is like a mixture of Leach/RichRod/Urban Meyer. He has been wanting to run more option stuff, even while at Tulsa, but never had a qb that was a good runner. I wouldn't put much into his passing stats. He is a good athlete though. The question is, does he have the work ethic and dedication to the game to make it as an NFL quarterback. Will he be able to transition? This isn't about race, the same questions were there for Tebow.

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Old 04-01-2011, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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And for all of you girly boys whining about Cam being tweated unfaiwee, PFT and others are still projecting him FIRST.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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He didn't set the record, Colt Brennan did, where is he at? Newton didn't even lead in passer efficiency THIS year, Kellen Moore did, and that was with more pass attempts. David Johnson who played under Gus at Tulsa had a passer efficiency rating of 179, why is that never mentioned? Where is he at? oh thats right barely got a shot as an UDFA. What about Paul Smith before him at Tulsa, where did he go? Oh thats right, an UDFA to the Jaguars on the scout team before he was waived to make room for Todd Bouman. And he is now in the CFL.

The only thing that sets Cam apart is his athletic ability, and ability to run. The system Gus runs is designed to put up monster stats, no matter who is playing qb, he will change the scheme to suit their strengths, what he did passing at Auburn doesn't mean nuch as far as the NFL is concerned, because nothing they ran resembles an NFL offense.

There are different types of spread offenses, which some people seem to get confused about, there is the zone read/option kind that guys like RichRod runs, the Airraid that Leach runs, and then stuff like what Oklahoma ran has pro concepts that the Saints/Patriots/Colts run as well as what McCoy was running at Texas. No two spread teams are identical, although the system at Auburn is similar to what Urban Meyer had for Tebow. Gus is like a mixture of Leach/RichRod/Urban Meyer. He has been wanting to run more option stuff, even while at Tulsa, but never had a qb that was a good runner. I wouldn't put much into his passing stats. He is a good athlete though. The question is, does he have the work ethic and dedication to the game to make it as an NFL quarterback. Will he be able to transition? This isn't about race, the same questions were there for Tebow.
Where is Colt Brennan??? Colt Brennan is simply happy that you remembered he is the passing effiiciency record holder! hahaha.

I wish Brennan made it in the NFL, but I have come to peace with his chance coming to an end. You can't help yourself when you're hurt all the time.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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And for all of you girly boys whining about Cam being tweated unfaiwee, PFT and others are still projecting him FIRST.
Mistakes are always made in the NFL Draft.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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He didn't set the record, Colt Brennan did, where is he at? Newton didn't even lead in passer efficiency THIS year, Kellen Moore did, and that was with more pass attempts. David Johnson who played under Gus at Tulsa had a passer efficiency rating of 179, why is that never mentioned? Where is he at? oh thats right barely got a shot as an UDFA. What about Paul Smith before him at Tulsa, where did he go? Oh thats right, an UDFA to the Jaguars on the scout team before he was waived to make room for Todd Bouman. And he is now in the CFL.

The only thing that sets Cam apart is his athletic ability, and ability to run. The system Gus runs is designed to put up monster stats, no matter who is playing qb, he will change the scheme to suit their strengths, what he did passing at Auburn doesn't mean nuch as far as the NFL is concerned, because nothing they ran resembles an NFL offense.

There are different types of spread offenses, which some people seem to get confused about, there is the zone read/option kind that guys like RichRod runs, the Airraid that Leach runs, and then stuff like what Oklahoma ran has pro concepts that the Saints/Patriots/Colts run as well as what McCoy was running at Texas. No two spread teams are identical, although the system at Auburn is similar to what Urban Meyer had for Tebow. Gus is like a mixture of Leach/RichRod/Urban Meyer. He has been wanting to run more option stuff, even while at Tulsa, but never had a qb that was a good runner. I wouldn't put much into his passing stats. He is a good athlete though. The question is, does he have the work ethic and dedication to the game to make it as an NFL quarterback. Will he be able to transition? This isn't about race, the same questions were there for Tebow.
Are you calling Cam a 'system QB'???

Shame on you.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Mistakes are always made in the NFL Draft.
Mistakes? No, I think Mike Brown calls them unfortunate outcomes.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Mistakes are always made in the NFL Draft.
Totally. I am just pointing out to the hilariously indignant that for a bit of the blown out of proportion rhetoric, plenty in the NFL are looking past the concerns mentioned here.

I am one of the guys that thinks he is going to be either great or terrible, with little chance of being in between. I'd put the odds at 70% bust. Which is higher than the standard 50% bust factor of a typical draft pick. I.e. to me, he's way too much of a risk for a team that absolutely needs a QB ASAP.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Mistakes are always made in the NFL Draft.
I've been a proponent that Carolina's best move is to trade down.

Preferrably with Dallas. No homeristic bias there at all. I promise! ;)
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Mistakes are always made in the NFL Draft.
In fact, the majority of draft picks are mistakes.
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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I've been a proponent that Carolina's best move is to trade down.

Preferrably with Dallas. No homeristic bias there at all. I promise! ;)
Yeah right. So with the 1st pick the Dallas Cowboys select who?
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