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Old 04-15-2011, 04:16 PM    (permalink
nepg
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Mangini-Tanenbaum was the same situation as Belichick-Pioli. The funny part about the whole situation with Mangini and the Jets is that he lost that job because he didn't want Bret Favre back...

Let's be real. The Browns is probably the toughest gig in the NFL. Just like with the Jets, Mangini set that team up for long-term success, but won't be around to partake in the fruits of his labor.

Mangini knows the formula and doesn't stray from it. It doesn't help him much when the front office has the patience of a 4 year old and goes over his head - screwing up the work he's done in the process then throwing him under the bus.

Look at what the Chiefs are doing. Thta team is going to be really good soon, and they'll be really good for a long time. That's the same thing Mangini does except everyone from the owner all the way down to the waterboy is behind it in KC.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Mangini actually drafted some pretty impressive players during his tenure in New York and did a good job building that team.


2006

Nick Mangold
D'Brickashaw Ferguson
Eric Smith
Leon Washington
Brad Smith

That's a really good draft. An A+ kind of draft if you ask me.

2007

Darrelle Revis
David Harris
Acquired Thomas Jones by moving back into round 2. (From #37 to #63)
Chansi Stuckey

Again, another really strong draft. 3 major, franchise caliber players were added right there.

2008
Vernon Gholston (Only major mistake)
Dustin Keller
Dwight Lowery
Kris Jenkins for 3rd and 5th round draft picks.
Gave up Jonathan Vilma for a measly 4th Rd pick

This is really the only bad draft. Gholston is a major bust, Keller is a solid starting TE, Lowery solid depth at CB and Kris Jenkins was incredible value, but as expected, injuries never went away. Vilma trade was simply terrible value. Should have gotten a second round pick for a stud MLB, which ended up being a swap... Vilma for Lowery... not good.


That's nothing to be ashamed of right there. I liked all the Jets drafts, including 2008 (I loved Gholston), right after they happened. He added a slew of All-Pro and Pro Bowl players at critical positions.


What's happened in Cleveland? I don't much care for.
Mangini wasn't the guy that drafted them, it was the GM Tannabaum that did.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Why? Nawrocki is not a scout. There are message board draftniks who I put more stock in than Nawrocki. Message boards are where a lot of draft scouts come from anyway. I have a couple friends that started on message boards, and I could have easily done it myself if I'd been more dedicated to it. Sometimes he writes some good things, but he also writes some over the top things to sell magazines. Mission accomplished for this year.
Nawrocki is a scout and draft analysis who is well respected in the industry as Scott said. He also was dead on about JeMarcus Russell.
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sp...outing-report/

I remembered when people said the haters of JeMarcus were making up lies about his work ethic. We know how that turned out. Yesterday, even JeMarcus's life coach quit. JeMarcus is the biggest bust in NFL history, even past Ryan Leaf, who at least had other teams give him a try.
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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I am just talking initially. Obviously JaMarcus Russell has become the gold standard for busts. Still, I think Russell was a much better prospect coming out than Newton is now.
If you honestly believe this there is no point talking Newton with you because you're clueless. Besides having a bigger arm what did Russell have over Newton? Competitiveness, overall performance, ability to handle pressure, work ethic, leadership, intelligence? You cannot say that with a straight face in any of those categories.
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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If you honestly believe this there is no point talking Newton with you because you're clueless. Besides having a bigger arm what did Russell have over Newton? Competitiveness, overall performance, ability to handle pressure, work ethic, leadership, intelligence? You cannot say that with a straight face in any of those categories.
Russell was just as freakishly physically talented as Newton, albeit in different areas, and was also much more polished in terms of the college system he played in. They both have concerns about intangibles, although once again in different areas.

To this day Russell still threw / throws one of the prettiest balls I've ever seen.

I guarantee the coming-out-of-college Russell would be the #1 quarterback in this draft.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
Russell was just as freakishly physically talented as Newton, albeit in different areas, and was also much more polished in terms of the college system he played in. They both have concerns about intangibles, although once again in different areas.

To this day Russell still threw / throws one of the prettiest balls I've ever seen.

I guarantee the coming-out-of-college Russell would be the #1 quarterback in this draft.
No he wouldnt. He'd be Ryan Mallett. He was just lucky to be compared against Brady Quinn but thanks for ignoring the questions in my post.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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No he wouldnt. He'd be Ryan Mallett. He was just lucky to be compared against Brady Quinn but thanks for ignoring the questions in my post.
Easy guy, no need to get hostile! :o)

Here is how I'd assess Russell vs. Newton in the categories you mentioned:

Competitiveness - Newton.
Overall Performance - Russell, because he performed well in a pro-style system.
Ability to Handle Pressure - Newton, both on and off the field.
Work Ethic - Push as both have concerns in this department.
Leadership - Push. There is more to leadership than being rah-rah on the field
Intelligence - Push.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Easy guy, no need to get hostile! :o)

Here is how I'd assess Russell vs. Newton in the categories you mentioned:

Competitiveness - Newton.
Overall Performance - Russell, because he performed well in a pro-style system.
Ability to Handle Pressure - Newton, both on and off the field.
Work Ethic - Push as both have concerns in this department.
Leadership - Push. There is more to leadership than being rah-rah on the field
Intelligence - Push.
I don't think you can call Newton vs. Russell work ethic to be a push. Even if Newton is a complete slug, he can at least maintain his weight. Russell was constantly hovering around 300 pounds. He was a fat bastard that wouldn't even get off the couch. His weight issues didn't just pop up after he was drafted.

I also disagree on intelligence. Like, really disagree. Frank Gore at the age of 6 was smarter than JaMarcus Russell. Russell sounded like one of the dumbest people I have ever heard talk during interviews. Listening to him talk told me, without any further iota of questioning, that college athletes are given passing grades. Just given to them. Because there is no ******* way Russell could ever pass a college course with his display of intellect in interviews. Add on the work load of being QB at a major college program? Nope.

Cam Newton is stupid in a childish way. Like he's so dumb he doesn't even know what he's doing or what he's saying, so he just says stupid **** and is then told by the 85 people advising him that he shouldn't say stuff like that. Then they coach him up to further explain what stupid comment he made and he sounds even stupider since he's trying to recite language he wouldn't normally use. Or he's just dumb like a juvenile repeatedly getting caught stealing from a convenient store (or in his case, cheating at school and repeatedly getting caught).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK3k-LLnZ7k&NR=1

First thing I want say... OMG, did he really just say that? Second... he is high as a mofo. Dat dude is ******* stupid. Like stupid, stupid. Seriously.


With Russell's failure, I think teams have been putting more emphasis on leadership, work ethic, intelligence and other things of that nature. The most important part of being a successful QB is mostly cerebral. Russell proved that you could have more talent than anyone and be out of the NFL in 3 years. And the only reason he made it that long was because he was getting paid insane money. If he wasn't a #1 pick, I strongly doubt any team would keep any kind of player like him on a 53 man roster.
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Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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Easy guy, no need to get hostile! :o)

Here is how I'd assess Russell vs. Newton in the categories you mentioned:

Competitiveness - Newton.
Overall Performance - Russell, because he performed well in a pro-style system.
Ability to Handle Pressure - Newton, both on and off the field.
Work Ethic - Push as both have concerns in this department.
Leadership - Push. There is more to leadership than being rah-rah on the field
Intelligence - Push.
How are 'work ethic' and 'leadership' a push??

If you asked ANY LSU coach the year Jamarcus came out who was the hardest worker on the Tigers football team, I bet 50 player's names would have been mentioned before you heard them say something positive about Russell. This was a huge oversight in the scouting of JaMarcus, IMO. It's a huge warning flag when the guy you're projecting 1/1 is considered LAZY in college.

Ask that same question at Auburn and if Cam's name isn't the first you hear, it no worse than number 2.
The first impression Newton made with his new teammates as expressed by several Auburn coaches was his effort and desire to work out by himself on his football preparation even when most his teammates weren't.

Leadership is a push??

Again, we're back to that old assumption that Cam was some kind of athletic 'idiot savant' running around making plays with no idea what he was doing. Or that somehow Auburn was a football juggernaut that was destined to win the NC.

Cam made those guys believe in themselves and go into games prepared to play at a level collectively greater than their individual talent.

Who at LSU would ever say that having JaMarcus as a teammate INSPIRED them to play the game of football at a higher level of performance???

IMO JaMarcus was simply the guy who played QB for the Tigers, but describing him as a 'great leader' wasn't his player profile.

Cam put that Auburn team on his back and turned them into the best football team in the country.

And unless you have the opportunity to hear a prospect talk in detail about playing their position or listen to them break down film or draw up a play, calling them 'stupid' is asinine.

I want a football smart athlete foremost, not a university Phi Beta Kappa.

BB who are you to say that Cam is using words he doesn't know, or was coached to drop in interviews??
The underlying bias in that statement is disgusting.

I know it's comforting for some fans to believe that certain athletes MUST be mentally handicapped, but IMO it's rarely true.

Lots of these guys are 'bilingual', meaning they enjoy flipping slang all day every day with their boyz, but still know how to speak like a student or someone who's actually completed a homework assignment in college.

For some reason fans/scouts keep getting tripped up on this idiomatic contradiction when evaluating players.

Sometimes a player's speech pattern is a stylistic choice and not a direct indicator of their innate intelligence.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:46 AM    (permalink
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Someone with a strong work ethic doesn't cheat in school. At least 3 times, that we know of.

As for the leadership, as I said there is a lot more to it than being rah-rah on gameday. Does Newton set a positive example for his teammates? Is he the first one there and last to leave? Stuff like that. From what I have gathered, that isn't necessarily the case. Just because teammates like you it doesn't mean you're a good leader.

It's very easy with the benefit of hindsight to bash JaMarcus Russell. However, that's revisionist history. Sure there were work ethic concerns when Russell was coming out, but nobody thought it was that bad or else he wouldn't have gone #1 overall. Just like nobody knew the depths of Ryan Leaf's issues. I promise you that coaches and teammates of guys like Russell and Leaf were singing their praises during the pre-draft process too because they all had a horse in that race. It's the same with Newton.

Anyway, we just keep going around and around on the Newton debate and obviously neither side is going to budge. However, I feel very comfortable with my evaluation and think I will be proven correct when we look back five years from now.
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Old 04-16-2011, 06:44 AM    (permalink
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How are 'work ethic' and 'leadership' a push??

If you asked ANY LSU coach the year Jamarcus came out who was the hardest worker on the Tigers football team, I bet 50 player's names would have been mentioned before you heard them say something positive about Russell. This was a huge oversight in the scouting of JaMarcus, IMO. It's a huge warning flag when the guy you're projecting 1/1 is considered LAZY in college.

Ask that same question at Auburn and if Cam's name isn't the first you hear, it no worse than number 2.
The first impression Newton made with his new teammates as expressed by several Auburn coaches was his effort and desire to work out by himself on his football preparation even when most his teammates weren't.

Leadership is a push??

Again, we're back to that old assumption that Cam was some kind of athletic 'idiot savant' running around making plays with no idea what he was doing. Or that somehow Auburn was a football juggernaut that was destined to win the NC.

Cam made those guys believe in themselves and go into games prepared to play at a level collectively greater than their individual talent.

Who at LSU would ever say that having JaMarcus as a teammate INSPIRED them to play the game of football at a higher level of performance???

IMO JaMarcus was simply the guy who played QB for the Tigers, but describing him as a 'great leader' wasn't his player profile.

Cam put that Auburn team on his back and turned them into the best football team in the country.

And unless you have the opportunity to hear a prospect talk in detail about playing their position or listen to them break down film or draw up a play, calling them 'stupid' is asinine.

I want a football smart athlete foremost, not a university Phi Beta Kappa.

BB who are you to say that Cam is using words he doesn't know, or was coached to drop in interviews??
The underlying bias in that statement is disgusting.

I know it's comforting for some fans to believe that certain athletes MUST be mentally handicapped, but IMO it's rarely true.

Lots of these guys are 'bilingual', meaning they enjoy flipping slang all day every day with their boyz, but still know how to speak like a student or someone who's actually completed a homework assignment in college.

For some reason fans/scouts keep getting tripped up on this idiomatic contradiction when evaluating players.

Sometimes a player's speech pattern is a stylistic choice and not a direct indicator of their innate intelligence.

I think scouts would have more insight on the personality aspect and quirks of prospects than what you would. Many people had concerns about JeMarcus Russell's work ethic and voiced them. People like Nawrocki and Chris Landry. The same thing is being said of Cam Newton and Ryan Mallett today. Of course you will say they have agendas (as if you don't). I will trust the word of someone who gets paid to investigate and analyise draft prospects over some unknown poster on a message board.
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:00 AM    (permalink
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I just heard that Lucas, the guy who works extensively with young guys helping them overcome drug problems has quit on Russell, saying he shows no commitment to reform.
Could it be that Russell given a huge amount of money got caught up in drug use and cannot yet kick the habit, and that is why his pro career came to a complete halt with zero interest from other teams.
If that is the case, his failure as a pro is explained and had little to do with him as a prospect coming out of college, because he obviously passed all his drug tests up till that point.
Looking for comparisons between Russell and any QB prospect is rather silly unless you think Newton will head down the same course.
I can see the possibility of Newton possibly being a way 'too me' obsessed similar to Terrell Owens but that didn't stop Owens from being a great player just a rotten teammate.
I think it is definitely a gamble drafting Newton although I like his potential and ceiling, but it won't be much of a financial risk as he will sell tickets for Carolina and their merchandise sales will be considerably higher putting a lot of money in the owner's pocket, more than enough to pay his salary.
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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and that's why nick fairley is a 6th round pick.

or maybe, just maybe, this is hyperbole that just keeps getting more and more ridiculous every single time someone suggests it.
I agree completely that Fairley was a major part of the puzzle but 50 TD's is awful impressive to me.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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and that's why nick fairley is a 6th round pick.

or maybe, just maybe, this is hyperbole that just keeps getting more and more ridiculous every single time someone suggests it.

Purely hypothetical on my part as are most of these debates, but if you took Newton off that Auburn team and started his backup, leaving the rest of the team intact, what do you project they're record to have been??

I totally agree that Fairley played almost as important a role in the success of Auburn last year as Newton did, and I personally believe if Fairley didn't play like three men in the NC game, Auburn easily could have lost.

But I still believe without Cam, Auburn was barely a 6 win football team.

EDIT:

Cam visited Redskins Park Friday and the collective coaching staff and front office management had a massive circle jerk over the kid!!

They loved him to death and from reports it sounds like he's their top prospect in the draft.

Too bad there's absolutely no chance SHanahan gets the opportunity to coach him.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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Easy guy, no need to get hostile! :o)

Here is how I'd assess Russell vs. Newton in the categories you mentioned:

Competitiveness - Newton.
Overall Performance - Russell, because he performed well in a pro-style system.
Ability to Handle Pressure - Newton, both on and off the field.
Work Ethic - Push as both have concerns in this department.
Leadership - Push. There is more to leadership than being rah-rah on the field
Intelligence - Push.
The comedy continues to get better and better. There is no point of touching this because there is no way you can logically reason and watch both players as prospects and come away with this evaluation.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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fair enough, but let's take, say, locker away from UW for whoever his backup was. or mallett. or, heck, dalton.

i get that he was important to his team, but any of the top qbs could say more or less the same. and even if they couldn't, would that really have been an argument against, say, carson palmer? i mean, matt leinart did all right the next year.



keep in mind, shanny *will* move up when he wants a guy. if carolina isn't interested, you've suddenly got much more palatable trade options (to move to say, 3 or 4). and you know snyder wouldn't mind doing something splashy.

i still think locker's the best qb in the draft for shanahan's offense, though.
I've got Locker #1 as well but Newton is my #2. Not high on Gabbert or Mallet.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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BB who are you to say that Cam is using words he doesn't know, or was coached to drop in interviews??
The underlying bias in that statement is disgusting.

I know it's comforting for some fans to believe that certain athletes MUST be mentally handicapped, but IMO it's rarely true.

Lots of these guys are 'bilingual', meaning they enjoy flipping slang all day every day with their boyz, but still know how to speak like a student or someone who's actually completed a homework assignment in college.

For some reason fans/scouts keep getting tripped up on this idiomatic contradiction when evaluating players.

Sometimes a player's speech pattern is a stylistic choice and not a direct indicator of their innate intelligence.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=637...goryid=2378529

Wow. Cam is stupid. Listen to his comments. First alarming thing from that interview... he can't even remember a play from Auburn's playbook other than "36," which was held up on a grease board from the sidelines. He can't even call out his favorite play? Any play? Wow. That's really bad. Gruden made him look really stupid.

Then Gruden talks forever about him and Cam doesn't even look at him. Little weird. Almost as weird as Clausen's reaction last year when Gruden critiqued him. ** I would like to see his notepad from that interview by the way **

Third thing, when he starts talking about "the simple gun." "A gun, right? I mean I know it's a violent, uh, symbol, but I'm that."

That **** right there. He's talking about ammunition (people badmouthing him, which gives him his drive to be better), then all of a sudden he's like, oh ****, I just talked about a gun, I better say something that doesn't make it sound like I'm a gun toting thug that likes violence. Little comments like that -- "I mean I know it's a violent symbol" -- they just don't need to be said, but he's so scripted and so fake that it just makes him look like a con-artist. A very bad one, but a con-artists nonetheless. He's a stupid, fake cheater that lies like a rug. Just flat out dumb.

Cam has repeatedly told everyone in interviews that he really has no idea what playing QB is all about (during this process). After throwing awful at the Combine he says, "I under estimated the timing aspect of playing QB." Really, a QB would underestimate that? Okay...

Now, he can't even recite a play from Auburn's playbook. Then he says it himself about the system, "Simplistic = fast." That's all he knows. Simple offenses that a complete moron like Cam Newton could run. At the Combine he said it was his job to move the sticks, and not make more than one read. "To get out of there (the pocket)" and pick up three yards if he could get three yards. Kid is such a huge project. The first round talk is completely shocking. NFL teams just wont learn.


You compare that interview to Ryan Mallett's interview where he breaks down a play to every single detail, talking about the option routes and understanding the defenses... it's not even close. Mallett moved ahead of Newton for me just based on these two interviews. He is so much smarter and so more knowledgeable about the NFL game and NFL schemes, it's not even funny. ESPN did Newton a favor by not putting him on the board. Instead they go throw a few passes.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:22 AM    (permalink
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If the Panthers take Newton, both Marty Hurney and Ron Rivera are signing their own pink slips.
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:54 AM    (permalink
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I just came here to post that interview. As someone who was coming around to Cam, I believe he absolutely bombed that. It's especially disconcerting given that Clausen was exposed by Gruden last year, as well

FWIW, the only way I can justify Marty Hurney's continual employment is that he's so incompetent he somehow hasn't found his pink slip yet
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:45 AM    (permalink
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If the Panthers take Newton, both Marty Hurney and Ron Rivera are signing their own pink slips.
I dont know, hurney is not one that dies easily
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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Gruden's QB Camp's are half hour segments. I'd advise you to watch the WHOLE thing before making a final assessment.

Cam told Gruden the truth, Malzahn's play calls were a number system relayed from the sideline. Hell, I'm gonna call this straight, I can't believe there were no full play calls Cam had to recite in the huddle, or that he couldn't recite one from memory in an interview. Again I would have to see the entire QB Camp.

Still, that doesn't label a QB 'stupid'. I would expect that at some point Gruden has Cam diagram one of Auburn's offensive plays on a white board.

This entire country has a friggin' GUN FETISH, and suddenly because Newton uses the analogy of taking ALL the criticism against as ammunition that he loads into his 'gun' and 'fires' when he works out or prepares to play in the NFL, that's somehow a degenerate statement??? Please.

I'm 100% on board with Gruden that Newton's biggest adjustment will be the verbiage in the NFL and where Cam will need to work the hardest; studying and mastering his playbook.
Do I think he can do it?? Of course. His wonderlic says he can, his big mouth says that he can. It will be the first test of his work ethic.

Convenient that your analysis BB left out Cam throwing with Gruden, who stated at least twice in that three and a half minute segment after Newton drilled the football to the WR, 'right between the numbers'. Because he missed a few passes high at the combine, some of you are stuck back in Indy.

The reason personally I'm high on Newton is I believe most of his critics are severely underestimating his work ethic, assuming he doesn't have one or very little desire to become a grind like all the great NFL QBs are.

IMO the opposite is true. That much success for a QB in one season doesn't happen in the SEC unless that player is busting his ass off the field.

A sound athletic 'work ethic' will eventually smooth out the rough spots in Cam's game, IMO. His physical skills and knack for playing the game will take care of the rest.

Come back tomorrow BB after you've seen the entire QB Camp with Gruden/Newton tonight, ( 7PM EST, ESPNU, rebroadcast at 12AM later that night).

Remember, Gruden has already called Newton the best QB/player in this draft. Must be something he likes about him.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Cam Newton gives America a reason to care about the Panthers.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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That interview scared the hell out of me. I would not want that guy as the QB of my team.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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Funny, everyone is ripping Cam Newton for the interview yet I was impressed and to me I can see exactly why the Panthers would take him #1 overall. Perception is such a funny thing.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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If the Panthers take Newton, both Marty Hurney and Ron Rivera are signing their own pink slips.
Famous last words.

That assumes Cam won't be even an above average, winning NFL QB. For both Hurney AND Rivera to be fired for drafting Cam Newton, he'd have to be a consummate failure of a draft pick.

You're supposed to be the wise man, Scott!!

Cam as a starting NFL QB= FAIL??

Agree to disagree.
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