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Old 04-18-2011, 10:59 AM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Famous last words.

That assumes Cam won't be even an above average, winning NFL QB. For both Hurney AND Rivera to be fired for drafting Cam Newton, he'd have to be a consummate failure of a draft pick.

You're supposed to be the wise man, Scott!!

Cam as a starting NFL QB= FAIL??

Agree to disagree.
I disagree with that. As the #1 overall pick Cam Newton needs to be more than just a starting NFL QB. He literally needs to become a star. It's not enough for him to come in sell jerseys and tickets if he only becomes average. If the #1 overall pick in the draft is a QB, within a few years he had better be a top 10 QB in the NFL otherwise the pick is at best a poor one.

Realistically if Newton is taken #1 overall then the Panthers expect him to win them a Superbowl within 5 years. The very worst he can do to be judged a good pick is bring them back to respectability within two years and have them in the playoffs at worst in three years. Even if the Panthers do a horrible job at adding talent to the roster, this is still what will be expected from a QB drafted first.

For Hurney to keep his job he better pray that Newton becomes a star.

It's a double edged sword though. If he plays it safe and takes Dareus or Green or Peterson and Newton becomes a top QB, then regardless of what whoever they take do it will always pale in significance to Newton.

IMO Hurney has no choice but to take Newton. He has insane upside at the most important position. If he takes him he needs to succeed. If he doesn't take him he needs to fail hard
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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It's possible for Newton to become a playoff caliber QB who isn't considered a top 10 QB in the league, or even a pro bowler early in his career.

Is Eli Manning a top 10 QB??? Yet he's still IMO a 'franchise' quarterback.

I was only attempting to define how low a bar Cam has to be unable to cross before his HC and GM are fired.

If the Panthers become a perennial playoff contender with Newton as the signal caller, no matter how he gets it done, I think in hindsight he will be regarded as a great pick for Carolina.

True, a 1/1 is expected to be a top 5 - 10 QB eventually, but realistically if Newton can turn the Panthers into a threat again in the NFC South, that's the true barometer for measuring his success or failure.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
It's possible for Newton to become a playoff caliber QB who isn't considered a top 10 QB in the league, or even a pro bowler early in his career.

Is Eli Manning a top 10 QB??? Yet he's still IMO a 'franchise' quarterback.

I was only attempting to define how low a bar Cam has to be unable to cross before his HC and GM are fired.

If the Panthers become a perennial playoff contender with Newton as the signal caller, no matter how he gets it done, I think in hindsight he will be regarded as a great pick for Carolina.

True, a 1/1 is expected to be a top 5 - 10 QB eventually, but realistically if Newton can turn the Panthers into a threat again in the NFC South, that's the true barometer for measuring his success or failure.
True, if he brings them to the playoffs on a regular basis. It wont be enough to just go into the postseason every other year. The top QBs in the league bring their team back to the playoffs almost every year.

Brady
Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Ryan
Flacco

These guys arent necessarily the 8 best QBs but those guys are in the playoffs year in year out. Hurney better hope that in 5 years Newton's name is in the same group because if not then he has failed. Its not enough to show flashes of brilliance. He needs to have consistent success at the next level for the pick to be deemed a good one
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Famous last words.

That assumes Cam won't be even an above average, winning NFL QB. For both Hurney AND Rivera to be fired for drafting Cam Newton, he'd have to be a consummate failure of a draft pick.

You're supposed to be the wise man, Scott!!

Cam as a starting NFL QB= FAIL??

Agree to disagree.
Are you bringing your commemorative Cam Newton pom-poms to the NFL draft this year?

BTW, my favorite color is Twelve!
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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i know, right? just ask jeff fisher and vince young. 5 years after he was drafted and after he spent some time 'just winning', fisher was *still* canned. that's how little of a failure cam newton has to be.
I was thinking more in terms of Michael Vick's first 5 years in the league. Not impressive statistically as a passer, yet he turned Atlanta into a playoff contender.

VY only started 47/80 games in Tennessee, so calling him a winner is almost a stretch.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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I'm with FUNBUNCHER, I think people are underestimating newton's work ethic and taking a 30 min segment he did out of context. I also think he's being unfairly compared to vince young and jamarcus russell. Yes, newton is a big, athletic, mobile qb like those guys are but he's also a better passer than those guys.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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I'm with FUNBUNCHER, I think people are underestimating newton's work ethic and taking a 30 min segment he did out of context. I also think he's being unfairly compared to vince young and jamarcus russell. Yes, newton is a big, athletic, mobile qb like those guys are but he's also a better passer than those guys.
Russell is a way better passer than Newton. He was a fat, lazy dick and that's what stopped him being successful. As a pure passer Russell blows Newton away by a wide margin
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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I'm with FUNBUNCHER, I think people are underestimating newton's work ethic and taking a 30 min segment he did out of context. I also think he's being unfairly compared to vince young and jamarcus russell. Yes, newton is a big, athletic, mobile qb like those guys are but he's also a better passer than those guys.
Anyone saying that he doesn't have the tools has their head in the sand.

Anyone saying he is remotely prepared for the NFL has their head in the sand. He needs a ton of work. Basically, an NFL QB needs to be a field general, ordering people around and doing a bunch of orchestrating. And then he needs to be a warrior after the snap.

Cam has half of that. The other half is a complete and utter question mark as he has never had to do that. He played in a prairie dog offense where Malzhan was the general.

Taking him high in the draft is a huge freaking gamble, especially for someone that has those character concerns. Physically, he's off the charts.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Cam Newton is getting the same hype as Vince Young. Honestly, the comparisons aren't that far off.
1) Both tremendous athletes for the QB position (who preferred to run it all the time in college)
2) Both 'iffy' when it comes to reading defenses and learning the playbook correctly.
3) Both are way more comfortable making easy reads out of shotgun.
4) Both have sloppy mechanics.
5) The words "touch,timing and anticipation are all merely average" have been said about both players.
- The list goes on and on, Cam Newton is just younger Vince Young; same NFL careers I imagine.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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We all know Newton is way overrated and hyped.But then is the Panthers most likely going to have him number one overall?I just don't get it.The has no IQ of an play book and won't learn.We all know who should go number either A.J Green or Patrick Peterson. But sadly the over hypeness of QB's is taking it course.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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** I would like to see his notepad from that interview by the way **
Things Dave Grooden says I need 2 do 2 be good

1. Moove to France
2. Learn Portugese
3.???
4. Become icon!!
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Russell is a way better passer than Newton. He was a fat, lazy dick and that's what stopped him being successful. As a pure passer Russell blows Newton away by a wide margin
"Way better passer?" Russell's completion percentage was 1.1% higher than newton's, yes he had 275 more passing yards than newton but it took him 62 more attempts to do so. Newton averaged more yards per attempt than russell and passed for 30 TDs to 7 INT's while russell had 28 passing TDs and 8 INTs. And Russell had much better wrs to throw to.

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Old 04-18-2011, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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because stats are an accurate way of measuring the quality of ball a guy throws, when discussing him as an nfl prospect.
Gee, I think that's a pretty good way to measure who is the better qb. But if you know of a better way please enlighten me.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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We all know Newton is way overrated and hyped.But then is the Panthers most likely going to have him number one overall?I just don't get it.The has no IQ of an play book and won't learn.We all know who should go number either A.J Green or Patrick Peterson. But sadly the over hypeness of QB's is taking it course.
Agree 100%. Panthers should take Green or Peterson. Who takes a qb in the second round of a previous draft, then takes another one with their 1st in the next draft. If they take Cam, I don't see how tier offense improves at all. They still have no serious threat at WR besides Smith(maybe Gettis if he develops, but thats a big if), no viable TE, extreme weakness at right guard and the loss of deangelo wiliams to top it all off. Green and Peterson are the best players available and they fill needs.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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"Way better passer?" Russell's completion percentage was 1.1% higher than newton's, yes he had 275 more passing yards than newton but it took him 62 more attempts to do so. Newton averaged more yards per attempt than russell and passed for 30 TDs to 7 INT's while russell had 28 passing TDs and 8 INTs. And Russell had much better wrs to throw to.
In his record breaking season Colt Brennan threw for 5549 yards at 72.6% completion with 58 TDs and 12 INTs.

In his senior year Matt Ryan threw for 4507 yards at 59.3% with 31 TDs and 19 INTs.

But I get your point about how stats make the full arguement
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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In his record breaking season Colt Brennan threw for 5549 yards at 72.6% completion with 58 TDs and 12 INTs.

In his senior year Matt Ryan threw for 4507 yards at 59.3% with 31 TDs and 19 INTs.

But I get your point about how stats make the full arguement
Exactly.

Anybody who saw Russell play at LSU knows how insanely talented and gifted he truly was. I had him as a late 1st Rounder heading into his Junior season, but despite all the tools, I barely bumped up my grade on him due to the character concerns.

Newton's accuracy is erratic. That's an obvious. Russell also played in a pro-style Offense whereas Newton played in a Shotgun, gimmick offense. Newton was taught to read one side of the field, and if it wasn't open, he was taught to run.

Russell was a far superior passer coming out.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Cam Newton is getting the same hype as Vince Young. Honestly, the comparisons aren't that far off.
1) Both tremendous athletes for the QB position (who preferred to run it all the time in college)
2) Both 'iffy' when it comes to reading defenses and learning the playbook correctly.
3) Both are way more comfortable making easy reads out of shotgun.
4) Both have sloppy mechanics.
5) The words "touch,timing and anticipation are all merely average" have been said about both players.
- The list goes on and on, Cam Newton is just younger Vince Young; same NFL careers I imagine.
If I force myself to pretend VY never played a down in the NFL and remember the prospect he was coming out of Texas, I'd have to admit they almost look like clones.

Personally Newton looks like a more conventional passer than VY, but even I have to admit Cam didn't do anything in college that VY didn't in 2005, except that VY was in Texas' program longer and it took him a greater amount of time for the light to 'come on' for him as a QB.(VY threatened to quit the Longhorns football team at least once as a freshman).

So why is VY at a crossroads in his career??
Maturity issues for one, emotionally and professionally. His psyche is fragile from what I've seen and he doesn't respond to negative critiques from those close to him; coaching staff.

Cam IMO doesn't suffer from 'emotional immaturity', but he does have questions about his maturity as far as acting like an adult and being accountable for his actions off the football field.

VY also scored a 6 on his wonderlic. Cam Newton I believe scored a 21.

Are their scores predictive of their success or lack thereof?? Not particularly.
But a QB with a single digit wonderlic I'd assume is going to have to work 3 times as hard as a QB like Sam Bradford to master the playbook, which would almost require VY to live at the Titans practice facility his first couple of seasons in the NFL. We know that didn't happen.

Cam is going to have to bust his butt in film study and the classroom, but hopefully he won't struggle to pick up his new team's offensive concepts and play calls.
I still feel the one factor alone that will determine his success/failure in the pros is how hard Newton is willing to work on his game OFF of the practice field.

Lastly, I think Newton has naturally a better feel for the passing game than VY ever did, similar to MV and D Mac. With passes more than 20 yards downfield, I felt that VY rarely looked comfortable or at ease. His reads didn't seem to come to him fast enough and the ball required his WRs to make too many adjustments.

Yeah, VY in many ways is the ideal case study for Cam Newton, but that doesn't make them the same prospect.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
in addition to what's already been mentioned, i guess you were of the opinion that timmy chang should've been the #1 overall draft pick, as well.
Chang had a 57% career accuracy in NCAA and threw almost as many interceptions as touchdowns. Why bring him up?
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
We all know Newton is way overrated and hyped.But then is the Panthers most likely going to have him number one overall?I just don't get it.The has no IQ of an play book and won't learn.We all know who should go number either A.J Green or Patrick Peterson. But sadly the over hypeness of QB's is taking it course.
See while I'm not the biggest fan of Newton but it seems that people are just looking for reasons to doubt him at this point. I just don't get it. Those who didn't like Cam at the start of the post season never gave him a chance they take every negitive report as gospil. Now are they all crap? No the stolen laptop the cheating on school exams are all cause for concern. But to extrapolate or to infer from that a direct effect to the football field without a colaborating source. In fact, we have multiple sources who are at the very least equally reputable available to refute this laziness claim. I honestly have no idea where the no IQ and playbook learning difficulty comes from. Is there a seperate source that I'm unaware of to make you think this or are you just pulling crap out of your bum?
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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See while I'm not the biggest fan of Newton but it seems that people are just looking for reasons to doubt him at this point. I just don't get it. Those who didn't like Cam at the start of the post season never gave him a chance they take every negitive report as gospil. Now are they all crap? No the stolen laptop the cheating on school exams are all cause for concern. But to extrapolate or to infer from that a direct effect to the football field without a colaborating source. In fact, we have multiple sources who are at the very least equally reputable available to refute this laziness claim. I honestly have no idea where the no IQ and playbook learning difficulty comes from. Is there a seperate source that I'm unaware of to make you think this or are you just pulling crap out of your bum?
The top NFL quarterbacks today averaged around 30 on the Wonderlic. I don't think any starter except Mike Vick scored lower than Newton. There is some reason to doubt.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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See while I'm not the biggest fan of Newton but it seems that people are just looking for reasons to doubt him at this point. I just don't get it. Those who didn't like Cam at the start of the post season never gave him a chance they take every negitive report as gospil. Now are they all crap? No the stolen laptop the cheating on school exams are all cause for concern. But to extrapolate or to infer from that a direct effect to the football field without a colaborating source. In fact, we have multiple sources who are at the very least equally reputable available to refute this laziness claim. I honestly have no idea where the no IQ and playbook learning difficulty comes from. Is there a seperate source that I'm unaware of to make you think this or are you just pulling crap out of your bum?
There are plenty reasons to doubt Newton at the moment but I understand the frustration. There seems to be two camps at the moment.

One says Cam Newton is clearly going to end up in prison because he has a history of being a thief and is so dumb he can't say the alphabet let alone digest a playbook. He is also the fakest person in the world and anytime he smiles he is actually thinking of kicking puppies in the head. Then when he gets on the field he can't hit an open WR with all kinds of time and as soon as the ball has snapped he starts running.

The other says that Newton is a harshly treated, misunderstood soul. It was obviously his father who stole the laptop as well as soliciting his son for money. His genuine smile and well spoken nature show what a fine young man he is and the only time he is not being the hardest worker of all time is when he is selflessly donating his time to make the world a better place. When he's on the field he is a leader of great men. He is comparable to Nelson Mandela in his ability to lead his people and his football ability is a combination of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson. Quite clearly he is the chosen one.

How about everyone calm on the over reactions. Newton is a supremely talented football player who may be a once in a generation talent. However there are enough reasons to be wary of this, all of which have been stated numerous times.

As I have said a few times already in this thread, if I was picking high in the draft I wouldnt take Newton. It may come back to haunt me and may lose me my job but based on what we know I don't see how you could comfortably draft him highly
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Cam Newton is getting the same hype as Vince Young. Honestly, the comparisons aren't that far off.
1) Both tremendous athletes for the QB position (who preferred to run it all the time in college)
2) Both 'iffy' when it comes to reading defenses and learning the playbook correctly.
3) Both are way more comfortable making easy reads out of shotgun.
4) Both have sloppy mechanics.
5) The words "touch,timing and anticipation are all merely average" have been said about both players.
- The list goes on and on, Cam Newton is just younger Vince Young; same NFL careers I imagine.
Cam has a considerably better throwing motion than Vince also he handles screwtiny much better than vince does. Other than that you may be right but out of all the available QBs Vince is the only one with a winning record just saying.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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people forget that Professional football is entertainment.

little story: my company has basketball tickets. the local team sucks. But when Lebron James comes to town, people snap up those tickets. When the Houston Rockets come to town no one gives a rat's ass.

Cam Newton is a name. Love him or hate him... a businessman might want to bring a client to a game featuring Cam Newton. Root for him to succeed or fail it doesn't matter he puts asses in the seats. No one's putting on their shoes to see Jimmy Clausen.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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If the Panthers take Newton, both Marty Hurney and Ron Rivera are signing their own pink slips.
Wow.............
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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The top NFL quarterbacks today averaged around 30 on the Wonderlic. I don't think any starter except Mike Vick scored lower than Newton. There is some reason to doubt.
Almost right. Not.

David Gerrard, Derek Anderson and Donovan McNabb all scored lower than Newton.

Henne, Favre and Tebow scored exactly one point higher.

Peyton scored a 28. His little brother scored a 39.

I'll take big bro to be my wonderlic tutor, you can work out something with Elijah.
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