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Old 03-11-2013, 09:38 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.
What?? No they didn't. What weapons did he have? But Tyler Wilson sucks.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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Surprisingly enough, Ponder is a bit older than Harvin. But quarterbacks take longer to mature, and I guess Percy doesn't want to be washed up by the time that happens. Not that Wilson is any better, or any older.
A this rate, it would take the alpha male about 25 years to fully mature.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Since we're in retro mode here.....I was surprised when I looked back over the Combine tests for quarterbacks over the past five years, how much they were dominated by the 2011 class. Even without Terrelle Pryor. Jake Locker is the only QB who is still top 10 in all 5 events over that period. Gabbert, Newton, Griffin III, are top 10 in 3 of the 5 still. Luck in two, and I think Ponder, Kaepernick, and Wilson, in one each. If you include Wonderlic as the sixth test, Ponder, Gabbert, and Luck, would add one more top 10 mark each. If Pryor was included in that class, it would have dominated most events going as far back as you want to go. Luck, Wilson, Griffin, and E J Manuel were also eligible to come out in 2011.

The class also set all time records for rookie and sophomore starts in the NFL at the position. Remember how everyone was saying it was a terrible draft class? LOL at them.
Cam and Colin are complete studs, the rest of the class are decent decathletes.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.
Ha no

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Old 03-11-2013, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Jake Locker is a stud, he has shown flashes of it on the football field and I think he will develop. They should be running read option plays with him, he had 291 yards rushing on 41 attempts, 7.1 ypc with most of it coming from scrambling. Add in the zone read and I think his level of play would be so much better. He put up great numbers for being 234 pounds.

I think Ponder will improve as well, some quarterbacks need a few years to adjust, most of the recent qbs that put up great numbers right away were running read option plays to help them transition to the NFL. I don't know why Percy Harvin was complaining, they utilized his skillset pretty well, he was used as a great slot receiver, only receiver to have a higher percentage of yards come after the catch over Welker.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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Well, one thing you can count on, pretty much, from any given quarterback class, the guy who has the best rookie season almost never ends up being the best long term. I looked back over about 15 years worth of rookie QBs, and there wasn't more than a couple who had the best first season and went on to have the best career. Kyle Orton had the best rookie season in the class with Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith. Chris Weinke had the best first season in a class with Drew Brees and Michael Vick. Vince Young won OROTY and went to the Pro Bowl his first season in the league. Even Peyton Manning was probably outplayed by Charlie Batch his first season in the league, although Batch didn't manage to play a full season. Things change as the years go by.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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Jake Locker is a stud, he has shown flashes of it on the football field and I think he will develop. They should be running read option plays with him, he had 291 yards rushing on 41 attempts, 7.1 ypc with most of it coming from scrambling. Add in the zone read and I think his level of play would be so much better. He put up great numbers for being 234 pounds.

I think Ponder will improve as well, some quarterbacks need a few years to adjust, most of the recent qbs that put up great numbers right away were running read option plays to help them transition to the NFL. I don't know why Percy Harvin was complaining, they utilized his skillset pretty well, he was used as a great slot receiver, only receiver to have a higher percentage of yards come after the catch over Welker.
No sir, he is not a stud. Locker as a stud is a figment of your imagination. You want him to be a good, consistent QB, but he isn't. He wasn't taken in the top ten to develop. Please do not make excuses for his poor play. It's not anyone else's fault and it's not his fault he was taken so high. He was a project.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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umm, both guys you mentioned benefit from the zone read, and Kaepernick was a project and allowed to develop under a good coach and put into a great situation. The only thing holding back Locker is injuries. He played 11 games last season and only a handful the year before. Cam Newton hasn't exactly looked great compared to last year, declined in his 2nd year (not writing him off after 2 seasons though). And its besides the point, we were talking about athleticism, which I don't know why you would call RG3 a decent decathlete as well. Why not put him in there? are you thinking he won't be the same after his knee injury and might be forced to become more of a prototypical qb and not do as well?

My point is, if you let him run the read option, it allows him to develop into a prototypical qb while posting great stats, its what RG3 and Kaepernick are doing, without it I think they would struggle a little more. Like someone just said the best qbs usually don't come out putting up great seasons their first year, regardless of where they are picked. You can't force a qb to develop that fast, unless you have game managers like Joe Flacco who finally elevated his play last season. Andrew Luck showed flashes of being great and struggled at times as well (despite breaking the rookie passing record he made some mistakes), I don't think anyone is expecting him to decline, the signs show that he will improve.

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Old 03-11-2013, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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Calling Jake Locker a stud is a little much.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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No sir, he is not a stud. Locker as a stud is a figment of your imagination. You want him to be a good, consistent QB, but he isn't. He wasn't taken in the top ten to develop. Please do not make excuses for his poor play. It's not anyone else's fault and it's not his fault he was taken so high. He was a project.
Other than injuries, I think that Locker and Gabbert were coming along as expected. Gabbert made pretty significant statistical improvements up to the point of his season ending injury. Locker won the starting job and was playing pretty well up to the point where the shoulder put him on the bench for a stretch. He wasn't the same when he did come back. Tough to be a running quarterback with a bad shoulder. Kaepernick has only had seven starts, on a very good team so far in his career. He'll get nicked and come down to earth as well. He isn't better than Locker or Gabbert, just landed in a better situation. So far.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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writing guys off like Locker and Ponder after two seasons is a little much...
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Ponder has shown what he can do in a number of games. Give him some time.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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writing guys off like Locker and Ponder after two seasons is a little much...
Yeah, if you look back at the E. Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger class, it looked like Ben was so much better than the other two his first couple of seasons that it was ridiculous. Then he faded a bit, Rivers came on strong for a couple seasons, and finally Eli caught up to them both and has probably passed them as we sit.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:37 AM    (permalink
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Well, one thing you can count on, pretty much, from any given quarterback class, the guy who has the best rookie season almost never ends up being the best long term. I looked back over about 15 years worth of rookie QBs, and there wasn't more than a couple who had the best first season and went on to have the best career. Kyle Orton had the best rookie season in the class with Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith. Chris Weinke had the best first season in a class with Drew Brees and Michael Vick. Vince Young won OROTY and went to the Pro Bowl his first season in the league. Even Peyton Manning was probably outplayed by Charlie Batch his first season in the league, although Batch didn't manage to play a full season. Things change as the years go by.
Huh?? Charlie Batch wasn't in the same zipcode as rookie QB compared to Peyton.

I'm not going to look back to research the last 15 drafts, but I'd assume your conclusion is wrong since you thought Batch had a better rookie season than Peyton.


Also you can't compare guys who didn't start as rookies to guys that did.
Compare their first year as starters and in most cases the better QBs were good from the very beginning.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:15 AM    (permalink
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As a Titans fan, Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either. The jury is definitely still out on him. Two years ago he showed flashes of brilliance when he played. Last year he won the job in camp, but the shoulder injury put a major hamper on his season. Add the fact that our interior OL was horrendous and that our receivers have been average at best with Brittle always being out. Hopefully he can do better things this year being healthy and having a OL that looks like it will be revamped.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:54 AM    (permalink
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As a Titans fan, Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either. The jury is definitely still out on him. Two years ago he showed flashes of brilliance when he played. Last year he won the job in camp, but the shoulder injury put a major hamper on his season. Add the fact that our interior OL was horrendous and that our receivers have been average at best with Brittle always being out. Hopefully he can do better things this year being healthy and having a OL that looks like it will be revamped.
Yeah, I think some of you are missing my point. Of course the book isn't written on the guys I have mentioned, but my point is they were drafted too high based on potential. Ponder has limited upside and Locker quite frankly is closer to an athlete than a QB. Compared to Geno Smith, they are light years behind him, yet for some reason, it became fashionable to say that Smith was not worth of a first rounder. Are you kidding me? Smith is WAY more further along than Locker and Ponder will never be able to throw the ball like Smith. I got news for you, Ponder's upside is Brad Johnson. Locker? David Carr.

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Old 03-12-2013, 07:37 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, if you look back at the E. Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger class, it looked like Ben was so much better than the other two his first couple of seasons that it was ridiculous. Then he faded a bit, Rivers came on strong for a couple seasons, and finally Eli caught up to them both and has probably passed them as we sit.
That has nothing to do with this conversation as both of them were magnitudes better than Ponder and Locker to begin with. Neither Locker nor Ponder should have been drafted in the first round.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I think some of you are missing my point. Of course the book isn't written on the guys I have mentioned, but my point is they were drafted too high based on potential. Ponder has limited upside and Locker quite frankly is closer to an athlete than a QB. Compared to Geno Smith, they are light years behind him, yet for some reason, it became fashionable to say that Smith was not worth of a first rounder. Are you kidding me? Smith is WAY more further along than Locker and Ponder will never be able to throw the ball like Smith. I got news for you, Ponder's upside is Brad Johnson. Locker? David Carr.
2 things...

1. I wasn't addressing your point. Don't flatter yourself. I just saw a discussion about Locker and I gave my opinion as someone who has watched all of Locker's games.

2. If you think Locker has a similar upside to what Carr had that is one thing. If you are saying that Locker's upside is what Carr resulted as (a bust), then yes you are writing him off almost by definition.

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That has nothing to do with this conversation as both of them were magnitudes better than Ponder and Locker to begin with. Neither Locker nor Ponder should have been drafted in the first round.
Stop acting like every post has to exactly address the point that you intended. The conversation evolved. I'm sorry Locker and Ponder took a collective piss in your cereal while holding hands.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I'd still take Locker over Smith.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by pierce2walker View Post
2 things...

1. I wasn't addressing your point. Don't flatter yourself. I just saw a discussion about Locker and I gave my opinion as someone who has watched all of Locker's games.

Don't flatter yourself, I wasn't talking to you only.
2. If you think Locker has a similar upside to what Carr had that is one thing. If you are saying that Locker's upside is what Carr resulted as (a bust), then yes you are writing him off almost by definition.

Being that Carr's career actually played out before our eyes, I was referring to the results. I believe that Locker will prove to be no better than Carr. If I am writing him off, then so be it. Just keep in mind Trent Dilfer won a SB.

Stop acting like every post has to exactly address the point that you intended. The conversation evolved. I'm sorry Locker and Ponder took a collective piss in your cereal while holding hands.
Um, why don't you stop acting like Locker and Ponder's butt hurt surrogate-birthed son. Both of those clowns were highly overrated and it's not like I didn't say that at the time they were draft. In Locker's case, I said he was overrated the previous season. Now, if you want to take my opinion on a couple of former draft prospect personally, then thanks for the free entertainment.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
pierce2walker
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Um, why don't you stop acting like Locker and Ponder's butt hurt surrogate-birthed son. Both of those clowns were highly overrated and it's not like I didn't say that at the time they were draft. In Locker's case, I said he was overrated the previous season. Now, if you want to take my opinion on a couple of former draft prospect personally, then thanks for the free entertainment.
Ahh the classic "claim whoever disagrees with you is butthurt" post. Please sir do explain to me how I am so "butthurt" here.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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Huh?? Charlie Batch wasn't in the same zipcode as rookie QB compared to Peyton.

I'm not going to look back to research the last 15 drafts, but I'd assume your conclusion is wrong since you thought Batch had a better rookie season than Peyton.


Also you can't compare guys who didn't start as rookies to guys that did.
Compare their first year as starters and in most cases the better QBs were good from the very beginning.
Batch had two more wins in four fewer starts than Manning (he was hurt). Higher completion rate, and Charlie had an 83 passer rating to 71 for Manning.
Better touchdown to interception rate. What else you want?
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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That has nothing to do with this conversation as both of them were magnitudes better than Ponder and Locker to begin with. Neither Locker nor Ponder should have been drafted in the first round.
What makes you think they were "magnitudes better"? Eli was complete crap his rookie season, didn't win a game until the last day on his 24th birthday. Rivers hardly got off the bench his first couple seasons. He was 25 before he made his first start.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Batch had two more wins in four fewer starts than Manning (he was hurt). Higher completion rate, and Charlie had an 83 passer rating to 71 for Manning.
Better touchdown to interception rate. What else you want?

In 1998, Batch had 57% completions, a little over 2100 yards passing on 303 attempts, 11 TD, 6 INTs.


Same year, Manning completed 56% of his passes, 3739 yds on 575 attempts, 26 TDs/28 INTs.

I hate INTs, but I don't look at their rookie season stats and say that Batch outperformed Peyton.

Their completion percentage is virtually the same.
I just wouldn't say Batch had a better overall rookie year than Peyton.
At the time I believe Peyton set two alltime rookie QB records, for TD passes and total passing yards.

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