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Old 03-12-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Well, I said Batch "probably" outplayed Manning other than the fact he missed four games. I didn't imply that it was clear cut or one sided. If you averge Batch's stats out over a full season, he would have had 20 Tds, 10 Int or something. 83 passer rating was pretty decent back then. Won 5 of 12 starts.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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What makes you think they were "magnitudes better"? Eli was complete crap his rookie season, didn't win a game until the last day on his 24th birthday. Rivers hardly got off the bench his first couple seasons. He was 25 before he made his first start.
The problem is where does this faith in Ponder and Locker come from that they'll be solid to good pros??? They weren't great vertical passers in college and aren't in the NFL.
Rivers and Eli, you at least have their outstanding college careers to project what they might become in the pros.

Most raw QBs who develop into good pros were at least good/great in college.
I just don't see the evidence that these two weren't overdrafted, other than hope.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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I really think the 2011 QB class is going down as one of the best ever. We still haven't heard from Mallett and Pryor yet. Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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I really think the 2011 QB class is going down as one of the best ever. We still haven't heard from Mallett and Pryor yet. Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.

In five years, the only QBs listed above who have an 80% chance to be starters in 5 years are Kaepernick and Newton.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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In five years, the only QBs listed above who have an 80% chance to be starters in 5 years are Kaepernick and Newton.
So far, 2011 class has set all time record for rookie starts and sophomore starts. Ever. Pryor getting his shot this year.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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I hated that class at first because there wasn't one great QB, but then i realized that is a great draft of just tools and potential. I saw 7 guys who I thought has a decent shot at being a quality NFL starter.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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In five years, the only QBs listed above who have an 80% chance to be starters in 5 years are Kaepernick and Newton.
I agree with this statement. Pryor is a mystery but I doubt he will ever be a long term starter. The other in this class I think can be a long term starter is Mallett. I also want to see what Stanzi does with Andy Reid.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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I agree with this statement. Pryor is a mystery but I doubt he will ever be a long term starter. The other in this class I think can be a long term starter is Mallett. I also want to see what Stanzi does with Andy Reid.
The Chefs are reportedly interested in signing Chase Daniel, so the likely answer is nothing.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Year Team Attempts Completions Completion %YardsTDs INT
2006 Florida State
Redshirt
2007 Florida State 18 8 44.4% 105 1 2
2008 Florida State 318 177 55.7% 2,006 14 13
2009 Florida State 330 227 68.8% 2,717 14 7
2010 Florida State 299 184 61.5% 2,044 20 8
College Totals 965 596 61.8% 6,872 49 30

NFL TD–INT 31-25
Passing yards 4,788
Passer rating 77.1
Rushing attempts 88
Rushing yards 472
Rushing touchdowns 2
over two seasons Ponder is so awesome he such an amazing passer and has a definite "duel Threat"
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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Year Team Attempts Completions Completion %YardsTDs INT
2006 Florida State
Redshirt
2007 Florida State 18 8 44.4% 105 1 2
2008 Florida State 318 177 55.7% 2,006 14 13
2009 Florida State 330 227 68.8% 2,717 14 7
2010 Florida State 299 184 61.5% 2,044 20 8
College Totals 965 596 61.8% 6,872 49 30

NFL TD–INT 31-25
Passing yards 4,788
Passer rating 77.1
Rushing attempts 88
Rushing yards 472
Rushing touchdowns 2
over two seasons Ponder is so awesome he such an amazing passer and has a definite "duel Threat"
its not like he was running the read option, I don't know how you expect him to pick up more yards if he isn't getting designed runs like the other "dual threats", the reason why he got the nod his sophomore year is because the coach liked his mobility.

he was leading the acc in passing yard average per game until he got injured in 2009, he separated his shoulder trying to tackle someone that made an interception on him, he was going to break 3k and had several injuries during his senior year, mainly his elbow which he kept having to get drained. If it weren't for the separated shoulder he was going to come out in 2009. He has also battled the elbow problem in the NFL, you can't just throw the stats out there and make a conclusion without knowing the story behind it

I mean do you watch the games? or just look at stats because its the same argument you have for others "well he threw this many passes and completed this many and this is how many sacks he took"

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Old 03-13-2013, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.
I am having a hard time figuring out if you are joking or being srs most of the time.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Year Team Attempts Completions Completion %YardsTDs INT
2006 Florida State
Redshirt
2007 Florida State 18 8 44.4% 105 1 2
2008 Florida State 318 177 55.7% 2,006 14 13
2009 Florida State 330 227 68.8% 2,717 14 7
2010 Florida State 299 184 61.5% 2,044 20 8
College Totals 965 596 61.8% 6,872 49 30

NFL TD–INT 31-25
Passing yards 4,788
Passer rating 77.1
Rushing attempts 88
Rushing yards 472
Rushing touchdowns 2
over two seasons Ponder is so awesome he such an amazing passer and has a definite "duel Threat"
Ponder is not a duel threat on the NFL level. And once again, you are making an evaluation solely on numbers.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Ponder is not a duel threat on the NFL level. And once again, you are making an evaluation solely on numbers.
The only real reason that Ponder has rushing statistics at all is that he's super-panicky in the pocket. If his first read isn't open (which is often), he reliably gets happy feet and flees the pocket.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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I really think the 2011 QB class is going down as one of the best ever. We still haven't heard from Mallett and Pryor yet. Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.
I'll take the one right after it thank you.
You can have your Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton and I'll take Luck, RG3, Wilson, Tannehill.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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I am having a hard time figuring out if you are joking or being srs most of the time.
Numbers don't lie. 2011 QB class had the most rookie starts and sophomore starts ever. Not something I'm pulling out of my butt.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Numbers don't lie. 2011 QB class had the most rookie starts and sophomore starts ever. Not something I'm pulling out of my butt.
But it also has an extreme amount of suck. Like Gabbert.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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But it also has an extreme amount of suck. Like Gabbert.
Gabbert had a better passer rating and completion % than Luck or Tannehill last year, with less support around him. Playing against more difficult competition. He is younger than both of them. So I guess 2012 has "more than extreme amount of suck".
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Considering the Jags and Colts are in the same division I'm not sure where you are getting this "more difficult competition" thing from. And considering the Colts and Fins had two of the worst receiving corps in the league last year (sans Wayne), that point also seems pretty baseless.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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CK is soooo athletic that he'll be able to survive on that as his own checkdowns and be a decent rookie... factor in the fact that he will be leading Harbaugh's offense with Gore, Crabtree, and Davis and I think a star is born!
This was a little prophetic.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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I've seen enough of Ponder, his noodle arm, and the hype he got undeservedly at FSU to know that at #12 he was a risk.

1) He doesn't have a great arm. His arm is average at best. The injuries may have unfairly made his arm look worse than it was.... but that's another issue/

2) Too frequently injured. He's not big, he wasn't durable in college, there's no reason to believe he will ever be healthy in the NFL.

3) I didn't see how he performed all that well at the Senior Bowl. His biggest play was also his worst play, the 40+ yard eephus pitch he threw to Hankerson should have a) never been thrown b) been shot like a duck shortly after it left his hand. Bad decision, worse throw, terrible arm strength shown on that particular play.

4) Book smarts has never been a great predictor of NFL success. He has had some incredibly boneheaded throws/decisions over his time that suggests he doesn't have a great mind while in the pocket.

If he can stay semi-healthy he could someday be a Jeff Garcia-type WCO QB, but he'll never be elite.
So far this seems pretty spot on. A bigger but less effective Jeff Garcia. He's still got time and has played a little better than I thought he would.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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umm, both guys you mentioned benefit from the zone read, and Kaepernick was a project and allowed to develop under a good coach and put into a great situation. The only thing holding back Locker is injuries. He played 11 games last season and only a handful the year before. Cam Newton hasn't exactly looked great compared to last year, declined in his 2nd year (not writing him off after 2 seasons though). And its besides the point, we were talking about athleticism, which I don't know why you would call RG3 a decent decathlete as well. Why not put him in there? are you thinking he won't be the same after his knee injury and might be forced to become more of a prototypical qb and not do as well?

My point is, if you let him run the read option, it allows him to develop into a prototypical qb while posting great stats, its what RG3 and Kaepernick are doing, without it I think they would struggle a little more. Like someone just said the best qbs usually don't come out putting up great seasons their first year, regardless of where they are picked. You can't force a qb to develop that fast, unless you have game managers like Joe Flacco who finally elevated his play last season. Andrew Luck showed flashes of being great and struggled at times as well (despite breaking the rookie passing record he made some mistakes), I don't think anyone is expecting him to decline, the signs show that he will improve.
In Kaepernick's first two starts he ran little to no read option plays... by the way, those two starts were impressive victories over the Bears and Saints (on the road). The read option may have made life a tad easier on CK, but I have a feeling he would've been fine without it. Granted, the read-option alone crushed the Packers in the playoffs.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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Don't know about the "Alpha male" bit. He hung with Gabbert a lot this spring, and Gabbert seemed the dominant personality even though he is a couple of years younger than Ponder.
What a weird comment.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by raphael View Post
Gabbert had a better passer rating and completion % than Luck or Tannehill last year, with less support around him. Playing against more difficult competition. He is younger than both of them. So I guess 2012 has "more than extreme amount of suck".
Lollllllll. You believe that?
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:18 PM    (permalink
batsandgats
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Ponder could be a dual threat if they ran the read option, he is almost 230 and ran a 4.6 at the combine. He was known for his mobility in college. He doesn't just scramble when his first read isn't open, thats lazy analysis. I just watched the game vs the 49ers, he stands in the pocket and doesn't worry about pressure coming to him unless he sees an open lane, otherwise he stands tall and tries to make a play, I saw a ton of dropped passes in that game. Most of his runs come out on play action rollouts, cutting the field in half and the guys on that side fail to get seperation, although he will try to thread the needle and its been hit or miss. He was standing in there trying to make plays with guys like Aldon and Justin Smith in his face. The mistake that really stood out that I saw were some overthrows on deep plays.

Colin ran a decent amount of read option against the Saints, I remember watching that game. Just because he doesn't run the ball doesn't mean they don't do read option, part of the option is reading the defense and deciding whether to hand it off or not. Just running it 5 to 10 times a game slows the defense down and he ran it close to 10. The Saints had the worst defense, I think in history, and he put up 231 yards 1 td and 1 int, he also had a rushing td on a read option play but his qb play did not look spectacular, against the worst defense, granted his was one of his first games starting.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:08 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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The only real reason that Ponder has rushing statistics at all is that he's super-panicky in the pocket. If his first read isn't open (which is often), he reliably gets happy feet and flees the pocket.
Thank you. Any questions?
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