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Old 06-24-2011, 03:55 AM    (permalink
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Hasley has literally strawman-ed every single logical point in this entire thread. I don't think it's intentional, I believe he just doesn't understand basic rhetorical concepts. He just can't quite grasp anything beyond the very surface, context be damned.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:05 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
seriously?

"your opinion is irrelevant, but mine isn't"
"you're on the internet so you're wrong"
"he had lots of yards, so i'm right"

come on.
You responded to my posts with this and wonder why it seems you're taking the 'Jones is slow' side. What were you arguing against then? That you just didn't like that I was right? That you just wanted an excuse to make another "non-sequitur! I deem your arguments to be invalid!" post? Do you even know what you're arguing? I think you just like making pointless arguments. Find a new gimmick or something. Your act is old and predictable.
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
You responded to my posts with this and wonder why it seems you're taking the 'Jones is slow' side. What were you arguing against then? That you just didn't like that I was right? That you just wanted an excuse to make another "non-sequitur! I deem your arguments to be invalid!" post? Do you even know what you're arguing? I think you just like making pointless arguments. Find a new gimmick or something. Your act is old and predictable.
You don't need to find a new "gimmick" when the current one works. "He had 300 yards in 3 games against LSU. You don't do that if you're slow," is the VERY DEFINITION of non sequitur. It's like saying, "This building is sturdy. It can't be that if it's not made of metal."

Wanna know how to get people to not call your arguments illogical? Make them logical.
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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You don't need to find a new "gimmick" when the current one works. "He had 300 yards in 3 games against LSU. You don't do that if you're slow," is the VERY DEFINITION of non sequitur.
No it's not. I don't think many of you here even know what non-sequitur means. You found a big word you like and just throw it out when you can't make a legitimate argument.

And the bottom line with this argument is that nobody with an effective brain cell in their head thinks Julio Jones plays slow. Does anyone here really think a lack of speed will be a problem for Jones in the NFL? Really? Really? This is one of those criticisms that come up on message boards, but don't actually mean anything on a football field.
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Old 06-24-2011, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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My prediction for Julio's rookie stats:

60 catches/750-900 yards/ 7-10 TDs.
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Old 06-24-2011, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
No it's not. I don't think many of you here even know what non-sequitur means. You found a big word you like and just throw it out when you can't make a legitimate argument.

And the bottom line with this argument is that nobody with an effective brain cell in their head thinks Julio Jones plays slow. Does anyone here really think a lack of speed will be a problem for Jones in the NFL? Really? Really? This is one of those criticisms that come up on message boards, but don't actually mean anything on a football field.
A non-sequitur is a conclusion that does not follow the basic premise. In a non-sequitur the conclusion may or may not be correct. You can be completely right and still present disconnected logic.

This is the structure of the argument you're making:

Premise: WRs who do well against LSU must be fast.
Evidence: Julio Jones did well against LSU.
Conclusion: Julio Jones is fast.

The problem here is that we're working with an inherently flawed premise. It's common knowledge that you don't need elite speed - whether it's timed or "playing" speed - to do well against any collegiate defense. Trying to equivocate success to speed is where the disconnect in logic occurs.

So again (and slowly this time): doing...well...against...LSU...does...not...mean.. .you...play...fast.

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Old 06-24-2011, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Now you're trying to change your argument from "Julio plays slow" to "You don't need elite speed...". I doubt you really even believe he plays slow. You're just another poster on a message board who can't make an argument without exaggerating.

And the reason I said Julio is fast is because Julio is fast. The LSU games just backs up my point. You obviously don't want to accept any evidence of the truth.
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Now you're trying to change your argument from "Julio plays slow" to "You don't need elite speed...". I doubt you really even believe he plays slow. You're just another poster on a message board who can't make an argument without exaggerating.

And the reason I said Julio is fast is because Julio is fast. The LSU games just backs up my point. You obviously don't want to accept any evidence of the truth.
Lol, I love irony.
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Make a quick, hollow remark and don't show any examples of me exaggerating. Yeah, that's how you role, prick.
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Roll*

And yes it does. And it also in reference to a good number of your posts in this thread. Keep trying though.
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Old 06-24-2011, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Now you're trying to change your argument from "Julio plays slow" to "You don't need elite speed...". I doubt you really even believe he plays slow. You're just another poster on a message board who can't make an argument without exaggerating.

And the reason I said Julio is fast is because Julio is fast. The LSU games just backs up my point. You obviously don't want to accept any evidence of the truth.
Jesus Christ, you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by SativaDominant
The problem here is that we're working with an inherently flawed premise. It's common knowledge that you don't need elite speed - whether it's timed or "playing" speed - to do well against any collegiate defense. Trying to equivocate success to speed is where the disconnect in logic occurs.
First of all, look at that bolded, italicized word. Collegiate. Cute how you end my quote with an elipses after “You don’t need elite speed” instead of finishing my god damn sentence. Further on this point, you don’t need elite speed to do well against NFL defenses either. Again, though, there is a reason that Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall were drafted in the second AND traded for a couple second round picks each instead of two firsts, a second, and two fourths.

The original question of this thread and my subsequent argument were that the Falcons ceded too much in their trade for him and that he was over-valued as a prospect. That was my original argument, it has been in this entire thread. I gave multiple reasons for it.

YOU are trying to paint my argument as "lolz he slowz." I've acknowledged that he has elite top end speed. It's evident in that video you posted (although, his poor acceleration is also painfully obvious as well), and it was evident in his sup 4.4 forty time.

His playing speed is a sub-argument of my original argument. I have not changed or flip-flopped on anything. You either lack the reading comprehension skills or the attention span to understand that an argument can go beyond one small point.

So I'll summarize this all again, and in a simple outline so you can understand it this time.

Thesis: The Falcons gave up too much for Julio Jones

I. WR is not an inherently valuable position
A. Even with gaudy statistical success, highly drafted wide receivers have historically had little to no impact when it comes to helping a team win a Superbowl
B. The type of WR role the Falcons were looking to upgrade - possession receiver with YAC ability - is even LESS valuable than a number one receiver, and can easily be filled with later picks.
II. Julio Jones was overvalued as a prospect.
A. Goes hand in hand with point I-B. He’s perfect for the role they want to use him in. Once again, though, that role isn’t inherently valuable.
B. Excellent measurables and production, but translatable NFL traits suggest a #2 receiver in a #1's body
1. Has poor acceleration/doesn’t play as fast as timed
2. Struggles tracking ball in the air
3. Loses speed out of breaks, despite relatively good hip flexibility for a man his size
C. Wide receiver was arguably the deepest position in this draft class
Wanna see the player Julio Jones was cloned from? He was arguably the best blocking WR in the NFL, too. The similarities are astounding.

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Old 06-24-2011, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Oh, come on now. I'll accept the comparisons to Dwayne Bowe and the like (which would make it abundantly clear we overpaid), but Reggie Williams? Julio is far more sudden and explosive. In fact, I don't think the Reggie Williams comparison exists if he weren't known for his blocking prowess.
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Old 06-24-2011, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Oh, come on now. I'll accept the comparisons to Dwayne Bowe and the like (which would make it abundantly clear we overpaid), but Reggie Williams? Julio is far more sudden and explosive. In fact, I don't think the Reggie Williams comparison exists if he weren't known for his blocking prowess.
Agree to disagree on this. Julio has far, far better speed after twenty yards. I can see "explosive" depending on how you define it, but I absolutely disagree that he's more sudden. Further, they've virtually identical in terms of height, weight, build, strengths, weaknesses, and (most of all) playing style. They're both big, rugged wide receivers who (in college) excelled at doing underneath dirty work, breaking tackles, and gaining YAC. They were both terrors for collegiate DBs to take down in the open field.

Jones has two distinct advantages over Williams, though. Firstly, Williams was a knucklehead (although, the effort was always there), and Jones has his head on straight. Secondly, the situation he's entering is infinitely better than the one Williams walked into.

Plus, you don't go for over 300 yards in 3 games against USC by not being explosive or sudden.

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keep in mind that reggie was rather well thought of when he was drafted. scott, for instance, had him as the 8 best prospect in that entire draft. i don't think it's out of bounds to make the comparison, unless you're being guided solely by hindsight.
Bingo. People forget how highly rated Reggie Williams was as a prospect.

FWIW:

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Old 06-24-2011, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Agree to disagree on this. Julio has far, far better speed after twenty yards. I can see "explosive" depending on how you define it, but I absolutely disagree that he's more sudden. Further, they've virtually identical in terms of height, weight, build, strengths, weaknesses, and (most of all) playing style. They're both big, rugged wide receivers who (in college) excelled at doing underneath dirty work, breaking tackles, and gaining YAC. They were both terrors for collegiate DBs to take down in the open field.

Jones has two distinct advantages over Williams, though. Firstly, Williams was a knucklehead (although, the effort was always there), and Jones has his head on straight. Secondly, the situation he's entering is infinitely better than the one Williams walked into.

Plus, you don't go for over 300 yards in 3 games against USC by not being explosive or sudden.

I think you are just using Reggie because it suits an anti Jones sentiment though. I could do the same thing for Pro Jones. Oh look, same size, same ridiculous measurable, similar style to Andre Johnson!

And I especially feel this way since I do agree with what weaknesses you've seen in Jones. However I think you are just taking it to a warped level. I'm not saying that as only a Falcons fan, but rather someone who had Julio as one of the best players of this class.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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That lazy thing is a big thing alot of us forget about prospects after time. We always go back years after, and if anyone compares to a bust you get nervous the next guy is a bust, but work ethic is probably the most important factor out of them all.


Is that guy gonna take the skill set he has, and put in a ton of work to improve? Off-season and during the season, or is he just gonna rely on his ability now and the rookie contract he got and be complacent.


Besides, the Jags consolation prize that year was Roy Williams. I think it's safe to assume that it was gonna be a fail regardless. That said, RW reminds me nothing of Julio what so ever. Other then size I'm not sure I see anything noteworthy in the comparison department.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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That lazy thing is a big thing alot of us forget about prospects after time. We always go back years after, and if anyone compares to a bust you get nervous the next guy is a bust, but work ethic is probably the most important factor out of them all.


Is that guy gonna take the skill set he has, and put in a ton of work to improve? Off-season and during the season, or is he just gonna rely on his ability now and the rookie contract he got and be complacent.


Besides, the Jags consolation prize that year was Roy Williams. I think it's safe to assume that it was gonna be a fail regardless. That said, RW reminds me nothing of Julio what so ever. Other then size I'm not sure I see anything noteworthy in the comparison department.
Agree completely. Work ethic and falling into the wrong scenario are the two biggest factors in NFL players busting IMO. Seldom do flat out bad players get drafted that high in the draft. Lazy players can get by in college based on talent, however in the NFL where the talent disparity is minimal between the very best and the average there needs to be something that sets them apart.

Looking at WR for example, players like Larry Fitzgerald put 99% of NFL players' work ethic to shame. This is a major factor in why he is a consensus top 2 WR. I have no doubt there are more talented WRs than Fitzgerald yet they are not willing to do the work.

At WR, I believe there are two main types of busts.

1. The guys who dont put in the work needed. Mike Williams for example ballooning in weight clearly didn't help his career in the early days.

2. Track guys with no hands. Troy Williamson, Ted Ginn, Darrius Heyward-Bey all were drafted in the top ten because they had the speed that teams love. However these teams failed to see that they couldn't catch, couldn't run routes etc.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Spot on. I'm also glad someone like BMW came back and has somewhat started to shape his career around. He hasn't played like a top 10 pick at all, but it's a complete turnaround from what he was. Alot of these "bust" actually can play, or had the tools to be a very good pro, the fact that they didn't put in the effort to become that player doesn't mean that anyone else who compares to them won't.


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2. Track guys with no hands. Troy Williamson, Ted Ginn, Darrius Heyward-Bey all were drafted in the top ten because they had the speed that teams love. However these teams failed to see that they couldn't catch, couldn't run routes etc.

Is there anyone out there who has actually broke the mold on this yet? I stay away from these guys completely, and yet every year someone gets excited over the next fast track guy who rounds off routes and just blows by people in College.


These guys get over drafted every single year. But I guess you could say Jacoby Ford is bucking the trend, he made plays all over the place for Oakland. Pretty sure he was always a track guy 1st, at least I think. But I guess eventually Oakland is bound to hit on 1 of those guys.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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Jesus Christ, you're an idiot.
That's not a nice thing to say about our lord almighty savior in heaven. Besides, he's not the one that makes you create multiple accounts. I'd bump this thread to rub your nose in it when Jones is killing it in the NFL, but you'll have probably gone through 5 more accounts by then.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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It's also ironic that that Sativa is trying to use the Reggie Williams as his meaningless comparison of choice. Williams sucks because he's a lazy pothead. lol
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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At first I found the thread interesting and was looking forward to a discussion. Now I come back to it for comedic purposes.

As for Jacoby Ford he has good hands. I remember he was a late riser at the all-star game (forgot which one he played in) where reports we're saying he caught everything in sight. He had a solid pair of hands to match his blazing speed.
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:39 AM    (permalink
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Wait, a college highlight video justifies 5 picks for him? Got it.
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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a college highlight video justifies 5 picks for him?
No, the fact that Julio Jones is awesome, while those 5 picks will likely only produce 2, maybe 3, quality NFL contributors justifies the trade.
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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So any prospect who has awesome college highlight video is automatically bustproof and is worth 3 quality NFL players?
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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I'm on both sides of the fence here.

J. Jones is a tremendous talent and worthy of a top 6 pick. I think he will win oroty and be a key factor in the Falcons having the best offense in the league.

BUT

It was still a stupid trade for many reasons.

1) The Falcons have a young q.b. and team as a whole, this move could only be justified if a team has an aging q.b. or a generally older team whose "window of opportunity" is about to close AND that team is truely 1 player away from getting over some hump. Shoulda stayed put, grabbed d.e. Brooks Reed in first then Greg Little in the second + have a first round pick coming next year....the trade seems desperate.

2) The defending superbowl champs and the "hump" the Falcons gotta be targeting to get over with a bold move like this eliminated yall 48-24 at your place. The plan seems to beat them 49-48 I reckon.

3) The needs just as big if not bigger for a d.e., idealy a pass rushing r.e. which is a much more premium position than #2 reciever. When the trade was first announced my first thought was Quinn.

4) Free agency has very few, if any, of the kind of impact r.e. you will need and theres lots of competition for the scraps that are available.
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