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Old 02-09-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
Job Reborn
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Besides the whole "deterring" argument for hockey fights to which I agree, I also think that, in an intense sport played with sticks and blades, it is an important thing to have a way of venting your frustrations in a manner that doesn't involve swinging your hockey club through someone's face.
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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i sort of wonder if those fans have ever actually seen a hockey fight. the ratio of fights that i thought could've caused actual injury (beyond a black eye) versus perfectly legal checks that could've caused actual injury is so infinitesimally small that it might as well be zero.
I got into a discussion yesterday on Twitter with a work colleague (a non-sports reporter) that was prompted by the Abdelkader-Smith fight in the Detroit-Edmonton game last night. Both players landed some solid punches, but were otherwise unharmed.

He called fighting an "antiquated tactic" and tried to draw some ridiculous correlations between hockey fighting and violence in society, arguing that hockey was different from boxing and MMA because those were "controlled" fights. An absurd argument if you ask me. If any group of athletes has ever been shown to experience ill-effects from their sport, it's surely boxing, where post-career head trauma is a given.
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Besides the whole "deterring" argument for hockey fights to which I agree, I also think that, in an intense sport played with sticks and blades, it is an important thing to have a way of venting your frustrations in a manner that doesn't involve swinging your hockey club through someone's face.
Agreed. And really, you don't often see hockey fights involving "non-fighters." Players know what they're getting themselves into. Sidney Crosby didn't get a concussion because he fought Jody Shelly or Ben Eager (random names that came to mind).
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Going to the Wild game tonight. Not feeling too optimistic though.
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Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Going to the Wild game tonight. Not feeling too optimistic though.
Do Detroit a favor and beat the Canucks, please.

I think there's a definite advantage to finishing 1st in the West this season, moreso than in other years. The expected top 6 teams are all very competitive, while Los Angeles (a 7th team) could make noise because of how good Quick is. At this point, it appears the 8th spot will be occupied by a decidedly lesser team.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm kind of annoyed at the discrepancy in number of games played by some teams at this juncture of the season. Hope that evens out a little. Ottawa has played five more games than the Rangers.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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controlled fights that last 100 times longer. bleh. i'm with you, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the first hockey he'd ever watched. it'd be like arguing that the pushing and shoving after a play is what injures nfl players, rather than the repeated high speed collisions.
Right. I asked him what exactly he suggested they do, cause he brought up football too. Do we cancel contact sports?

I said the NHL and NFL are working to reduce those types of violent hits, but it is not an overnight process. He said fines don't work, and I agree with that for the most part. Time is the only thing that will change the way these players approach checking people. It has to become ingrained in the way they play and can never be completely removed from the game.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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I got into a discussion yesterday on Twitter with a work colleague (a non-sports reporter) that was prompted by the Abdelkader-Smith fight in the Detroit-Edmonton game last night.
not to start a twitter circlejerk, but whats your name? id like to follow you
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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not to start a twitter circlejerk, but whats your name? id like to follow you
Check your messages.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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I don't dismiss the tradition and entertainment arguments. They are valid. I would just say that those wouldn't be the primary reasons the NHL would choose not to remove fighting from the game. The league won't make an emotional stand in favor of fighting, but rather a logical one based on the detriment it would have on the construct of the game itself (basically the whole deterrence argument I spelled out above).

From a fan's perspective, sure, tradition and added entertainment are huge reasons to oppose a ban.

I get tired of repeatedly having to educate casual fans or even non-fans of the sport that 99.5% of hockey injuries have nothing to do with fighting.
The entertainment factor would probably be the number one reason for keeping fighting in the NHL to Gary Bettman. He knows that keeping fighting in the game puts more money in the NHL's pockets. If it didn't, he probably would have gotten rid of it by now. Obviously they would never release that to the public, but it would not surprise me at all to find out that was the main reason.

If they want to make the game safer, the first step they should take is removing the instigator. Players won't play as dirty if they know they can get their **** pushed in everytime they do something borderline dirty.

Also, the evolution of the "goon" in the NHL probably gives fighting a bad name as much as it pains me to say it. Back in the day, the best fighters and enforcers could play the game and play it well. Probert, O'Reilly, McSorley, Schultz, etc. were all good players in their prime and some of the best enforcers ever. Hell, Brendan Shanahan had 50 goals and 200 PIM's one season. Nowadays, the only players you could possibly compare to them are Shawn Thornton, Milan Lucic, and Ryane Clowe, and those are generous. The model of "team toughness" has completely dissolved.

I forget who, but someone years ago said that back then all 20 guys on the team would fight and stand up for each other. Now, most of the teams are soft as warm butter. Maybe that's one reason for the introduction of the "goon" today, to cover up for the softness of the rest of the team.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Right. I asked him what exactly he suggested they do, cause he brought up football too. Do we cancel contact sports?

I said the NHL and NFL are working to reduce those types of violent hits, but it is not an overnight process. He said fines don't work, and I agree with that for the most part. Time is the only thing that will change the way these players approach checking people. It has to become ingrained in the way they play and can never be completely removed from the game.
The violent hits are caused by the bigger equipment and increased speed in the game. Bettman and his crew are probably too stupid to realize that though. If you make the game faster, more open, and give the players bigger equipment no **** there are gonna be bigger and harder hits. People (not you) are acting like these hits just started being dirty and haven't been around. Wrong, they have. People just didn't notice it back then. Any hard hit is immediately called for a suspension and put on the level of McSorley trying to decapitate Brashear or Bertuzzi bertuzzi'ing Moore. It's ridiculous and it needs to stop. Players are diving more than ever trying to sell calls, turn their back towards incoming players, and skate with their head down up the ice. They are learning to play the game entirely wrong. Also, I would just like to point out what constitutes a "concussion" today is hilarious.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Agree on the instigator rule.

And while we're suggestion was to make the game safer without ruining the sport, I'd also be totally fine with some sort of variation on the automatic icing call they have at some lower levels of hockey.

Neck and neck races for the puck need to remain in the game, but when it's basically certain the defenseman will reach the puck first unless he's knocked off balance by the forward, that's where the danger sets in.

That race for the puck with a forward barreling down on a defenseman is FAR more dangerous than your average hockey fight. Injuries sustained in those icing puck races tend to be broken legs or torn up knees from unnatural collisions with the end boards. The risk of a player losing his balance at a high rate of speed makes head injuries all the more likely as well.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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The violent hits are caused by the bigger equipment and increased speed in the game. Bettman and his crew are probably too stupid to realize that though. If you make the game faster, more open, and give the players bigger equipment no **** there are gonna be bigger and harder hits. People (not you) are acting like these hits just started being dirty and haven't been around. Wrong, they have. People just didn't notice it back then. Any hard hit is immediately called for a suspension and put on the level of McSorley trying to decapitate Brashear or Bertuzzi bertuzzi'ing Moore. It's ridiculous and it needs to stop. Players are diving more than ever trying to sell calls, turn their back towards incoming players, and skate with their head down up the ice. They are learning to play the game entirely wrong. Also, I would just like to point out what constitutes a "concussion" today is hilarious.
I sorta agree, but won't dare diminish the seriousness of any head injury. It's a worthy problem to receive this much attention and effort to minimize.

Ken Dryden wrote an excellent article for Grantland.com about a month ago on this subject.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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I know we've been over this before, Jensen, but I have no problem with the shift you see in the sport from a physical style of play to a finesse style. Yes, my favorite team is the Red Wings so I can be perceived as having bias. But I think the entertainment value increases as skillful goals increases.

I'm no less entertained by this Red Wings squad than I was in the days of the original Grind Line and the fighters we used to have here.

The game is less physical now, but still VERY physical when compared to other sports. It still fulfills the expectation of fans to a high enough degree, while helping open up the game and put an emphasis on scoring.

The crack down on obstruction (hooking, holding) is the arguably best thing that's happened to the sport in the last 10 years.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Oh my god Scott Gomez just scored a goal!
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Scott ******* Gomez
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Holy crap I thought he had it for a sec !
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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Well he does! Pacio hat trick <3
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Blues are now 11-0-2 aganst the Eastern Conference.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:31 PM    (permalink
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Blues are now 11-0-2 aganst the Eastern Conference.
That'll be really helpful in the Stanley Cup Finals I bet .........
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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That'll be really helpful in the Stanley Cup Finals I bet .........
Yeah and when we beat the Redwings to get there.

Jimmy who?
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:20 PM    (permalink
Xiomera
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Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Yeah and when we beat the Redwings to get there.

Jimmy who?
Just in 1997 and 1998, right?
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:58 PM    (permalink
holt_bruce81
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holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.holt_bruce81 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Lol that was like 15 years ago.
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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Which means Lidstrom has only gotten 15 times better.
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:39 PM    (permalink
Xiomera
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Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Xiomera is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Lol that was like 15 years ago.
They haven't met since then ..

By common logic, they're better until proven otherwise by the Blues.
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