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Old 08-06-2011, 11:28 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Yes. He was eligible this year.
Oh I thought it had to be five years.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Oh whoops he didn't actually start the 2007 season. Gotcha.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Oh whoops he didn't actually start the 2007 season. Gotcha.
Martin made the cut down to the Last 10 for the Class of 2011 with Reed, Kennedy, Roaf and Dawson. Best way to work out which HOF Class a player is first time eligible for is to add 6 years to his final season. Martin, Bettis, Faulk and Deion all played their last game in the 2005 season, waited five full seasons (2006-10) and then became eligible for the Class of 2011.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:30 AM    (permalink
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Just watched the speech from Shannon Sharpe. Very touching.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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I am shocked that people still have Andre Reed even in this discussion as a Hall of Fame player. He had longevity and solid production. Was part of a winning franchise and made 4 trips to the Super Bowl, which were all loses. Okay, that's a good career, but he was the third most important part of an offense that had 2 legitimate Hall of Fame players. He was never once in his career, for any significant time, considered the a top 3 player at his own position. I think he had 10 TD catches once in a single season. Once. In 16 seasons, he had over 1,000 yards... 4 times. 4 measly times in 16 years. A guy like Sterling Sharpe (who was actually dominant and every bit as good as Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin and Andre Rison) had (5) 1,000 yard seasons in a 7 year career. Put in Sterling Sharpe, then we can talk about players who played for a really long time, compiled some nice stats and played fairly well.

My Top WRs

1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss
3. Terrell Owens
4. Michael Irvin
5. Sterling Sharpe


I put knocks on Marvin Harrison and Torry Holt for coming up lame in the post season.


Cris Carter is in a similar category as Henry Ellard. I'm not sure Carter was even better than Ellard. Ellard played with dog **** at QB, ran routes all over the field, actually stretched the field and made big plays. I'm a little surprised he's been put on the waiting list, but I don't think Carter was ever that type of WR that really dominated the game. I'd put him in the Hall of Really Good. Curtis Martin, Jerome Bettis... Hall of Really Good. Marshall Faulk? Curtis Martin? There's a difference between the two.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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How you gonna knock Andre Reed for being the 3rd wheel and then put Michael Irvin in your top 5....c'mon now
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Marshall Faulk? Curtis Martin? There's a difference between the two.
1) Duh.
2) There's also a difference between Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Marshall Faulk. Just because you aren't better than everyone else in the HOF doesn't mean you don't deserve to be in.

Martin and Bettis are 4th and 5th all-time in rushing, they are getting in and there's no question about it.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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If Willie Roaf gets in, would that make him the first 300 lber (listed over 300 lbs. other players in the HoF may be 300 lbs., but they're not listed at 300 lbs.) to make the Hall of Fame?
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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2) There's also a difference between Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Marshall Faulk.
Not really.


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Just because you aren't better than everyone else in the HOF doesn't mean you don't deserve to be in.
No, but you should be as good as everyone else in the HOF. Otherwise, what's the point? I used Faulk as a reference since he was the last RB inducted. And there is a big difference between Marshall Faulk and Curtis Martin or Jerome Bettis.

I'd rather take Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes because they were better players than Curtis Martin. Martin played longer and has better all-time stats, but he hardly had the caliber of season that a Davis or Holmes had. Those guys dominated the league. Martin was consistently good. Jerome Bettis? Consistently good.

I'm of the opinion that there are too many players that make it on a yearly basis and too many players are considered snubs because they had long lasting careers where they were really good, but never were the best at their position. Andre Reed was never the best WR. Jermoe Bettis was never the best RB in the NFL for any extended period of time. The HOF should be reserved for the elite of the elite.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Mentioning Priest Holmes should void your whole argument. Terrell Davis...eehh...only cuz he had tha 2k season but he didn't play long enough. Holmes...no...just no...he shouldn't even be allowed in this conversation.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Mentioning Priest Holmes should void your whole argument. Terrell Davis...eehh...only cuz he had tha 2k season but he didn't play long enough. Holmes...no...just no...he shouldn't even be allowed in this conversation.
Holmes is eligible in 2013, but I think it's funny that he's not in the debate and Davis is. Is the 2000 yard season the deciding factor? Basically, both players had 4 years of dominance. And both are extremely comparable. I would also think the two Super Bowl runs would be more important than the 2,000 yard season, especially when TD was the main reason why they won those Super Bowls.


Priest Holmes would be a first ballot HOFer in my book. He had back-to-back seasons of 24 TDs and 27 TDs. And in 8 games the following season he had 15 Total TDs before going down with an injury, that basically ended his career. From 2001 to 2004, he was one of the most dominant offensive players in the NFL. And the only reason why his dominance wasn't any longer was because of injury.


Priest Holmes from 2001 to 2004

2001 - 16 Games - 327 carries, 1,555 rushing yards, 4.8 Avg., 8 TDs, 62 receptions, 614 yards, 2 TDs. Total's: 2,169 yards, 10 TDs.

2002 - 14 games - 313 carries, 1,615 rushing yards, 5.2 Avg., 21 TDs, 70 receptions, 672 yards, 3 TDs. Total's: 2,287 yards, 24 TDs.

2003 - 16 games - 320 carries, 1,420 rushing yards, 4.4 Avg., 27 TDs, 74 receptions, 690 yards. Total's: 2,110 yards, 27 TDs.

2004 - 8 games - 196 carries, 892 rushing yards, 4.6 Avg., 14 TDs, 19 receptions, 187 yards, 1 TDs. Total's: 1,079 yards, 15 TDs.


Terrell Davis from 1995 to 1998


1995 - 14 games - 237 carries, 1,117 rushing yards, 4.7 Avg., 7 TDs, 49 receptions, 367 yards, 1 TDs. Total's: 1,484 yards, 8 TDs.

1996 - 16 games - 345 carries, 1,538 rushing yards, 4.5 Avg., 13 TDs, 36 receptions, 310 yards, 2 TDs. Total's: 1,848 yards, 15 TDs.

1997 - 15 games - 369 carries, 1,750 rushing yards, 4.7 Avg., 15 TDs, 42 receptions, 287 yards. Total's: 2,037 yards, 15 TDs.

1998 - 16 games - 392 carries, 2,008 rushing yards, 5.1 Avg., 21 TDs, 25 receptions, 217 yards, 2 TDs. Total's: 2,225 yards, 23 TDs.


I would put both of those guy in before I would put in Curtis Martin or Jerome Bettis.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Not saying TD is in it either...if it were up to me he wouldn't get in. 3-4 years of being good shouldn't get you into the HoF. Priest holmes shouldn't sniff the HoF.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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I am shocked that people still have Andre Reed even in this discussion as a Hall of Fame player. He had longevity and solid production. Was part of a winning franchise and made 4 trips to the Super Bowl, which were all loses. Okay, that's a good career, but he was the third most important part of an offense that had 2 legitimate Hall of Fame players. He was never once in his career, for any significant time, considered the a top 3 player at his own position. I think he had 10 TD catches once in a single season. Once. In 16 seasons, he had over 1,000 yards... 4 times. 4 measly times in 16 years. A guy like Sterling Sharpe (who was actually dominant and every bit as good as Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin and Andre Rison) had (5) 1,000 yard seasons in a 7 year career. Put in Sterling Sharpe, then we can talk about players who played for a really long time, compiled some nice stats and played fairly well.

My Top WRs

1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss
3. Terrell Owens
4. Michael Irvin
5. Sterling Sharpe


I put knocks on Marvin Harrison and Torry Holt for coming up lame in the post season.


Cris Carter is in a similar category as Henry Ellard. I'm not sure Carter was even better than Ellard. Ellard played with dog **** at QB, ran routes all over the field, actually stretched the field and made big plays. I'm a little surprised he's been put on the waiting list, but I don't think Carter was ever that type of WR that really dominated the game. I'd put him in the Hall of Really Good. Curtis Martin, Jerome Bettis... Hall of Really Good. Marshall Faulk? Curtis Martin? There's a difference between the two.
Was Curtis Martin ever considered a top three running back at his position? I think you can make a case for Reed being a top three player at his position at some point during his career. It's all subjective.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Not saying TD is in it either...if it were up to me he wouldn't get in. 3-4 years of being good shouldn't get you into the HoF. Priest holmes shouldn't sniff the HoF.
Right, and it pains me to say it but this is why Sterling Sharpe isn't getting in. Terrell Davis has the best case you can make for someone that played a short career due to the two Super Bowls which is basically got for Denver, elite stats during that tenure, and an MVP. He basically had a Hall of Fame career in a short period of time. The only thing that is missing is the longevity, which is a big deciding factor. I love Holmes, but he should not be anywhere near Canton.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Not saying TD is in it either...if it were up to me he wouldn't get in. 3-4 years of being good shouldn't get you into the HoF. Priest holmes shouldn't sniff the HoF.
TD is never going to get in, let alone Priest Holmes or Sterling Sharpe, but those guys were actually dominating players that do get snubbed because of injury shortened careers. While a guy like Andre Reed makes the final list of ten because his career stats, which are nice, make him out to be some dominating player when he wasn't. He isn't snubbed. He just doesn't belong. Cris Carter and Tim Brown were much better players than Reed.

The HOF standards, by past precedent, say that 3 to 4 years of dominance, when your career is short lived, is enough to make it in.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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The HOF standards, by past precedent, say that 3 to 4 years of dominance, when your career is short lived, is enough to make it in.
Another reason why I've lost faith in some of the voting. If we're talking modern players by that method getting in.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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Was Curtis Martin ever considered a top three running back at his position? I think you can make a case for Reed being a top three player at his position at some point during his career. It's all subjective.
In a single season? Reed might have been close. I think of him the same way I think of Derrick Mason. Expect Reed got a lot more exposure playing for an open, hurry up offense that went to 4 straight Super Bowls.

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Right, and it pains me to say it but this is why Sterling Sharpe isn't getting in. Terrell Davis has the best case you can make for someone that played a short career due to the two Super Bowls which is basically got for Denver, elite stats during that tenure, and an MVP. He basically had a Hall of Fame career in a short period of time. The only thing that is missing is the longevity, which is a big deciding factor. I love Holmes, but he should not be anywhere near Canton.
Guys like Holmes and TD are the reason why I can't put in Martin or Bettis, and I loved the Bus. I know the two guys not getting in were the dominating players on a year by year basis. Martin/Bus never even came close to matching the kind of numbers Holmes and TD put up in a span of 4 years. Very few RBs not in the Hall of Fame have put up those kind of numbers during a 4 year stretch. I think there should be exceptions. Streling Sharpe, Priest Holmes and Terrell Davis are exceptions. Those guys were at the pinnacle of the sport and they were better than a lot of players at their position who could never put up the kind of numbers they did.


Look at Earl Campbell's numbers, and then tell me Priest Holmes doesn't belong. Earl Campbell is one of my favorite players of all-time. It shouldn't be solely about production, but about dominance. Campbell really only had 5 years of dominance (or even decent production). But it was a great five years. When he was healthy, Campbell was in a class of his own. When Priest Holmes was healthy, he put up numbers that few RBs have rivaled. IMO, Holmes' 3 1/2 year stretch is as impressive as any other RB that ever played.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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IMO, Holmes' 3 1/2 year stretch is as impressive as any other RB that ever played.
I can't think of anyone that would agree with you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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Will Roger Craig ever get in? I was watching NFLN and they just kept saying Marshall Faulk was the First ever Receiving RB and I was like Craig was doing before him. I know you can't put everyone from those 80's 49ERS but he has a couple of Super Bowl Rings and his stats are not Bad.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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It's also worth noting that Priest Holmes played behind the greatest offensive line since at least the 90's Cowboys.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Will Roger Craig ever get in? I was watching NFLN and they just kept saying Marshall Faulk was the First ever Receiving RB and I was like Craig was doing before him. I know you can't put everyone from those 80's 49ERS but he has a couple of Super Bowl Rings and his stats are not Bad.
Craig is never getting in. Unless he's like 80 years old.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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In a single season? Reed might have been close. I think of him the same way I think of Derrick Mason. Expect Reed got a lot more exposure playing for an open, hurry up offense that went to 4 straight Super Bowls.



Guys like Holmes and TD are the reason why I can't put in Martin or Bettis, and I loved the Bus. I know the two guys not getting in were the dominating players on a year by year basis. Martin/Bus never even came close to matching the kind of numbers Holmes and TD put up in a span of 4 years. Very few RBs not in the Hall of Fame have put up those kind of numbers during a 4 year stretch. I think there should be exceptions. Streling Sharpe, Priest Holmes and Terrell Davis are exceptions. Those guys were at the pinnacle of the sport and they were better than a lot of players at their position who could never put up the kind of numbers they did.


Look at Earl Campbell's numbers, and then tell me Priest Holmes doesn't belong. Earl Campbell is one of my favorite players of all-time. It shouldn't be solely about production, but about dominance. Campbell really only had 5 years of dominance (or even decent production). But it was a great five years. When he was healthy, Campbell was in a class of his own. When Priest Holmes was healthy, he put up numbers that few RBs have rivaled. IMO, Holmes' 3 1/2 year stretch is as impressive as any other RB that ever played.
I think it's going to be harder though as time moves on for certain players to get in. Campbell played a long time ago when stats and whatever aren't as important as they seem to be now. Wide receivers for example are going to get harder to classify and going to have to rely more on people that actually watched them played. You'll have guys like Chad Johnson and Steve Smith with a handful of 1,000 yard seasons, which may complicate things further. The game is so much in favor of offense now. Not to mention people seem to rely more on statistics a lot.
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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I can't think of anyone that would agree with you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
He averaged 22 TDs a season for 3 straight years. Who else has done that? LT? Is there anyone else? Maybe Emmitt? Dickerson? Alexander?
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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He averaged 22 TDs a season for 3 straight years. Who else has done that? LT? Is there anyone else? Maybe Emmitt? Dickerson? Alexander?
That's a really impressive statistic. I still don't think you'd find many people that would say Priest Holmes is an elite runningback (see a page or two back where I discussed the pitfalls of year-to-year comparisons).
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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He averaged 22 TDs a season for 3 straight years. Who else has done that? LT? Is there anyone else? Maybe Emmitt? Dickerson? Alexander?
3 HOF offensive linemen will do that for you.
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