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Old 12-19-2011, 12:59 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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I don't think that Butler is an upgrade over Anthony at all. One thing with Butler that worries me is that he still isn't all that great at closing off the edge. Anthony has definitely slipped in this last half of the year that I want an upgrade there, but he offers much more than Butler. Butler should just be a situational pass rusher here. Maybe he can grow into something better, but right now there would be a big step taken back if they don't resign Spencer and let him start. I like him, but he's not starter material right now.

Spencer disappoints me a lot. In 09 he was killing it out there. Last year he took a step back, but wasn't bad at all. This year he's been so inconsistent. One minute he's playing great again, then the next he's over pursuing so hard in the middle that the edge is wide open. That's so out of character for him because he's a damn fine run stopper.
Spencer hasn't had a single minute of great this season. Seriously, the guy is not just mediocre, he's become a liability. He does NOTHING well anymore. Not even against the run. At least with Butler, you know you are going to get some pressure. I was hoping Butler would be given a chance by the coaches to start over Spencer, but that hasn't happened. Spencer is just overrated, I guess. IMO Butler has been an upgrade over Spencer for a long time now, so I disagree with you that you think Spencer is better than Butler. Simply put, Butler is a playmaker and Spencer is not.

Does Denver look down on Elvis Dumervil because he's just a pass rusher and is horrid against the run? No, because he makes plays behind the LOS.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Spencer hasn't had a single minute of great this season. Seriously, the guy is not just mediocre, he's become a liability. He does NOTHING well anymore. Not even against the run. At least with Butler, you know you are going to get some pressure. I was hoping Butler would be given a chance by the coaches to start over Spencer, but that hasn't happened. Spencer is just overrated, I guess. IMO Butler has been an upgrade over Spencer for a long time now, so I disagree with you that you think Spencer is better than Butler. Simply put, Butler is a playmaker and Spencer is not.

Does Denver look down on Elvis Dumervil because he's just a pass rusher and is horrid against the run? No, because he makes plays behind the LOS.
Well, he probably won both redskins games for us. He ended the first game with a strip sack, and in OT he sacked grossman for -2 yards on 3rd down that made the FG just out of Gano's range, and he ended up missing by 2 feet. I'd call that great.

I'm not a Spencer supporter, but the guy isn't as bad as people say he is. People who think Butler should start over him should be banished from watching football. Spencer is a force against the run, Butler is a joke. He's an athletic pass rush specialist who belongs on the field on 3rd downs and when the opposing offense is in the 2 minute drill. That's all. Go re-watch the bills and dolphins games. When Butler is in on regular downs he gets run over in the running game. I remember the only good 2 runs that Fred Jackson had on the outside, Butler got obliterated by a TE. A TIGHT END!

Butler is a great depth guy and rotational player, but nothing more. I'm all for a 1st or 2nd round OLB to replace Spencer, but Butler starting would make this run defense go from one of the best in the league to pretty sad in a hurry.

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Old 12-19-2011, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Well, he probably won both redskins games for us. He ended the first game with a strip sack, and in OT he sacked grossman for -2 yards on 3rd down that made the FG just out of Gano's range, and he ended up missing my 2 feet. I'd call that great.

I'm not a Spencer supporter, but the guy isn't as bad as people say he is. People who think Butler should start over him should be banished from watching football. Spencer is a force against the run, Butler is a joke. He's an athletic pass rush specialist who belongs on the field on 3rd downs and when the opposing offense is in the 2 minute drill. That's all. Go re-watch the bills and dolphins games. When Butler is in on regular downs he gets run over in the running game. I remember the only good 2 runs that Fred Jackson had on the outside, Butler got obliterated by a TE. A TIGHT END!

Spencer is a great depth guy and rotational player, but nothing more. I'm all for a 1st or 2nd round OLB to replace Spencer, but Butler starting would make this run defense go from one of the best in the league to pretty sad in a hurry.
I think I just got owned by TNewFan.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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I think I just got owned by TNewFan.
Hey, I may come off a bit strong sometimes, but this kid knows football. I know it's tempting to want change, especially when Spencer looks like a permanent JAG and Butler makes the occasional play, but look at it objectively. Don't pull a Bob. Change isn't always the answer. If it's an off-season upgrade then I'm all more it, but Butler is NOT an upgrade. He's a situational player. He would be our Osi Uminyoura if he was a starter. Teams would burry him in the run game all day. He's like Darren Sproles but at OLB. Just trust me on that. Spencer is undervalued. He stops the run like a champion. I know sacks are flashy, but if you can't stop the run, you have no chance to win. None. Zero. Nada.

I'm sure you've owned me in the past a couple times as well.

EDIT: On my previous post I meant Butler is only a depth guy and a rotational pass rusher, not Spencer.

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Old 12-19-2011, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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The problem isn't that Spencer can't play. He's about average. The problem is that someone is probably going to offer him quite a bit more money than what he is worth. I just don't see us wanting to spend big money on him.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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The problem isn't that Spencer can't play. He's about average. The problem is that someone is probably going to offer him quite a bit more money than what he is worth. I just don't see us wanting to spend big money on him.
This is the team that re-upped Marcus Spears.
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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This is the team that re-upped Marcus Spears.
I think Spears is better at doing what this defense asks him to do than Spencer is at doing what he needs to do in this defense.

And we're talking about $, too. OLBers in a 3-4 make huge money. Spears was a solid signing at reasonable money.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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I think Spears is better at doing what this defense asks him to do than Spencer is at doing what he needs to do in this defense.

And we're talking about $, too. OLBers in a 3-4 make huge money. Spears was a solid signing at reasonable money.
We must have a different outlook on what reasonable is. $4M a year for 5 years is completely unreasonable to me for what Spears provides.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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We must have a different outlook on what reasonable is. $4M a year for 5 years is completely unreasonable to me for what Spears provides.
I haven't researched this but I would be interested in what the avg salary is for 3-4 DEs in the NFL.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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I haven't researched this but I would be interested in what the avg salary is for 3-4 DEs in the NFL.
Hint: Look at what Hatcher and Coleman got.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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I've been pretty adamant about not going OLB in the 1st, but this Nick Perry kid jumps off the screen when you watch his play. Probably will be gone before we pick, but he could be a terror playing opposite Ware.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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Who would you guys rather have in the first round if both players are sitting there for the Cowboys:

David DeCastro or Courtney Upshaw?
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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Decastro for me
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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I've been pretty adamant about not going OLB in the 1st, but this Nick Perry kid jumps off the screen when you watch his play. Probably will be gone before we pick, but he could be a terror playing opposite Ware.
I'm starting to warm up to OLB in the 1st. I like Spencer, but it's just starting to make sense to me.

My dream off-season, that is quite possible:

Free Agency:

Re-Sign Laurent Robinson and Fiammetta. Cut Newman, let Spencer, Bennett, Brooking, and Bradie walk. (unless spencer or bennett come back for cheap)

Sign of one the best interior OL, D'Qwell Jackson, and then it's TRAITOR TIME! Sign Terrell Thomas and Laron Landry, which would instantly bolster the secondary. They shouldn't be too expensive either, because both are on IR.

Draft:

Round 1- OLB- I like Spencer, but some team is going to grossly overpay him, and a real playmaker OLB opposite D-Ware would do wonders for this defense. Butler is not the answer, so stop that.

Round 2- CB- Can't have enough of them, and Mike Jenkins is a FA after 2012 and who knows if we re-sign him or not.

Round 3- True NT- This pick doesn't really need an explanation. Bout time we got one, and Ratliff moving to DE kills two birds with one stone.

Round 4- Athletic ILB- Sean Lee is a stud, you know what you'll get from D'Qwell Jackson, and hopefully Bruce Carter develops into what everyone thinks he can. Now we need a 4th ILB. I'd take the best athlete at the position on the board here. A special teams ace with the athleticism to play on defense in a pinch or in sub packages would be nice. Plus with the injury history of Lee and Carter, there is no such thing as too much depth.

Round 5- C/OG- There still might be a quality player at this position in the draft because it is probably one of the least valued positions. Bring in a guy to compete with Nagy, Kowalski, and maybe even Costa.

Round 6- RB- Take the best athlete at the position here. With the injury history of felix and DeMarco (even though demarco missed all of 2 games at OU) an athletic running back wouldn't be a back pick. Draft the guy to compete with tanner and/or fight for a spot on the practice squad.

Round 7- BPA or a road grading FB- Fiammetta is a beast, but we still have to re-sign him and i wouldn't mind some insurance for him either. Chapas is not the answer. Get a true bull dozer.

As you can see, I well pretty heavy on defense, but there really is no other way. I believe in Romo, and whether you like it or not he has another 2 years on his deal and with the way he is playing he isn't going anywhere. RB is set. WR is set. TE is set. I already addressed the offensive line. I also believe arkin is the future at one of the OG spots after Woicik beefs him up. Kid has everything you want in an O-lineman.

With some quality additions to the defense along with a full year under rob ryan's scheme, this team is definitely headed in the right direction.

We aren't that far away, we just need to make the right moves. I'm excited.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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I'm starting to warm up to OLB in the 1st. I like Spencer, but it's just starting to make sense to me.

My dream off-season, that is quite possible:

Free Agency:

Re-Sign Laurent Robinson and Fiammetta. Cut Newman, let Spencer, Bennett, Brooking, and Bradie walk. (unless spencer or bennett come back for cheap)

Sign of one the best interior OL, D'Qwell Jackson, and then it's TRAITOR TIME! Sign Terrell Thomas and Laron Landry, which would instantly bolster the secondary. They shouldn't be too expensive either, because both are on IR.

Draft:

Round 1- OLB- I like Spencer, but some team is going to grossly overpay him, and a real playmaker OLB opposite D-Ware would do wonders for this defense. Butler is not the answer, so stop that.

Round 2- CB- Can't have enough of them, and Mike Jenkins is a FA after 2012 and who knows if we re-sign him or not.

Round 3- True NT- This pick doesn't really need an explanation. Bout time we got one, and Ratliff moving to DE kills two birds with one stone.

Round 4- Athletic ILB- Sean Lee is a stud, you know what you'll get from D'Qwell Jackson, and hopefully Bruce Carter develops into what everyone thinks he can. Now we need a 4th ILB. I'd take the best athlete at the position on the board here. A special teams ace with the athleticism to play on defense in a pinch or in sub packages would be nice. Plus with the injury history of Lee and Carter, there is no such thing as too much depth.

Round 5- C/OG- There still might be a quality player at this position in the draft because it is probably one of the least valued positions. Bring in a guy to compete with Nagy, Kowalski, and maybe even Costa.

Round 6- RB- Take the best athlete at the position here. With the injury history of felix and DeMarco (even though demarco missed all of 2 games at OU) an athletic running back wouldn't be a back pick. Draft the guy to compete with tanner and/or fight for a spot on the practice squad.

Round 7- BPA or a road grading FB- Fiammetta is a beast, but we still have to re-sign him and i wouldn't mind some insurance for him either. Chapas is not the answer. Get a true bull dozer.

As you can see, I well pretty heavy on defense, but there really is no other way. I believe in Romo, and whether you like it or not he has another 2 years on his deal and with the way he is playing he isn't going anywhere. RB is set. WR is set. TE is set. I already addressed the offensive line. I also believe arkin is the future at one of the OG spots after Woicik beefs him up. Kid has everything you want in an O-lineman.

With some quality additions to the defense along with a full year under rob ryan's scheme, this team is definitely headed in the right direction.

We aren't that far away, we just need to make the right moves. I'm excited.

Thoughts?
I can def see where you are going with this, but there isnt enough money to go around.

1) Carl nicks is the top f/a lineman imo and will be looking for a similar contract of teammate Jahri Evans 7r $56 mil.

2) If LaRon Landry can pass physicals he will demand a contract slightly less the Eric Weddle's 5 yr $40 mil. Im guessing in the $25-31 mill range even after ending on IR.

3) Locking up Robinson is probably going to cost anywhere from $10-$12 mill over the next couple of years.

4) Jackson might come at a slight discount to play for Rob again, but with Lee and Carter im sure the team wont want to commit more then three years which will still cost $12-14 mil.

Fiammetta would be another two or three mil... then you have to bring Elam or Sensy back to pair with Landry, I would guess Abe. Then you have to decide if you let Holland loose or keep him for depth. Not to mention that all the signing would constrict the cap for in the future with Jenkins and Felix FA next year and Romo and Sean Lee FA the year after.

Not to mention all the restructured contracts from this year that put some serious dead cap space apx 20 mil for next season.

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Old 12-21-2011, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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I can def see where you are going with this, but there isnt enough money to go around.

1) Carl nicks is the top f/a lineman imo and will be looking for a similar contract of teammate Jahri Evans 7r $56 mil.

2) If LaRon Landry can pass physicals he will demand a contract slightly less the Eric Weddle's 5 yr $40 mil. Im guessing in the $25-31 mill range even after ending on IR.

3) Locking up Robinson is probably going to cost anywhere from $10-$12 mill over the next couple of years.

4) Jackson might come at a slight discount to play for Rob again, but with Lee and Carter im sure the team wont want to commit more then three years which will still cost $12-14 mil.

Fiammetta would be another two or three mil... then you have to bring Elam or Sensy back to pair with Landry, I would guess Abe. Then you have to decide if you let Holland loose or keep him for depth. Not to mention that all the signing would constrict the cap for in the future with Jenkins and Felix FA next year and Romo and Sean Lee FA the year after.
Your forgetting 2 things: Sensy was already re-signed, and the salary cap is going to go up significantly if im not mistaken starting this off-season because of the new CBA.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Your forgetting 2 things: Sensy was already re-signed, and the salary cap is going to go up significantly if im not mistaken starting this off-season because of the new CBA.
True I forgot about Sensy, but you are still looking at around $100 mil in free agency to take into consideration in addition to all the money that was pushed to this up coming season in attempt to sign Nnamdi.

Even if you can magically play with numbers and make it fit, it will probably give the team 2 years to compete for a super bowl. Then when Tony's contract is up and no money to resign him or any other QB / not to mention two running backs made of glass, right back into the stone age, it would make Daniel Snyder proud.

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Old 12-22-2011, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/s...staying-school

I wasn't really a fan but I am really surprised he is returning since he was a lock for the top 15.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/s...staying-school

I wasn't really a fan but I am really surprised he is returning since he was a lock for the top 15.
With a solid senior year he could go from top 15 to top 3.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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With a solid senior year he could go from top 15 to top 3.
I think he was going to be top 5 anyway. If you look at his numbers, it's going to be pretty hard for him to top them. Seriously, you think he's going to be better than 161 QB rating?
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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I think he was going to be top 5 anyway. If you look at his numbers, it's going to be pretty hard for him to top them. Seriously, you think he's going to be better than 161 QB rating?
Maybe not a better qb rating, but next year he can be the #1 overall. No Andrew Luck to compete with.
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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No Luck but he has Bray, Murray and Wilson to compete with. And I love me some Tyler Bray. That boy is going to be good.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Maybe not a better qb rating, but next year he can be the #1 overall. No Andrew Luck to compete with.
True, but I think the money he stands to make going from 3 or 5 to #1 is less than he could lose if he has a bad year and falls into the teens.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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True, but I think the money he stands to make going from 3 or 5 to #1 is less than he could lose if he has a bad year and falls into the teens.
I think even with a good season he could slip a bit, the whole "too much film" argument where coaches over dissect players and go for the younger hotter prospect. Regardless barring injury he should still be in top 10 consideration next year even though I cant justify any team picking him up higher than the late first round imo.

The Trojan's seem to have a farm system of these cookie cutter QBs that look like the part, but are just a good fit for what the do in southern cal. Leinart, Sanchez and Barkley are all cut from the same mold of good decision markers with below average arms.

USC is a pipeline for great athletes and people tend to forget that they are perennially stacked at WR and RB, not that those positions have transitioned well to the NFL either, but at the NCAA level the superior athletes win one on one match ups. Combine that with the fact that the Trojans also have a great pedigree for developing offensive lineman,(Kalil and Tyron top 10 picks in Barkley's tour of duty alone) pad the QB's stats and give the illusion of elite accuracy. Then when they enter the NFL with a high pick and an usually bad team, windows are a lot tighter, pressure come a lot quicker and they don't have the arm to hit WR's on vertical routes they tend to struggle.

Not to say in the right situation a Barkley can't succeed, all indications is he is a pretty bright guy and you can't go wrong with wanting a winner under center, but the pieces have to be there otherwise he is going to struggle.
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Food for thought:

If we don't add anyone in FA at ILB and all we have on the depth chart is Lee, Carter, and Albright if he even counts as an ILB, and Burfict falls to our 2nd rounder (which is looking like a decent possibility with his stock free falling), do you take him?
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