Colts without Manning: How many wins? - Page 3

nepg · 08-23-2011, 04:04 PM

They're like the Spurs without David Robinson... They are the worst team in the NFL without Manning. Quite easily.

Unbiased · 08-23-2011, 05:03 PM

They would be terrible on offense. They'd have to turn to a mediocre running game even though they spent two 1st round picks on running backs. The o-line was a problem when they were protecting Manning who makes quick decisions and quick throws. Painter would get sacked 50 times. The defense makes plays and creates turnovers so they could get a few wins here and there but this thread is making me really happy and clouding reality so I need to get out of here.

Woody56 · 08-23-2011, 10:21 PM

One thing I will say in defense of the Polian drafting, it is much harder to find good players when your drafting in the bottom 5 of the draft pretty much every year.

BeerBaron · 08-23-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody56

One thing I will say in defense of the Polian drafting, it is much harder to find good players when your drafting in the bottom 5 of the draft pretty much every year.

Not a problem for everybody...

TitanHope · 08-23-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Not a problem for everybody...

Doesn't count when the Raiders are tossing 1st RD'ers at him.

[PS. It looks like Belichick has Simpsons fingers in this pic.]

BeerBaron · 08-23-2011, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitanHope

Doesn't count when the Raiders are tossing 1st RD'ers at him.

[PS. It looks like Belichick has Simpsons fingers in this pic.]

I'm sure the Colts could also scam the Raiders if they worked at it...they just haven't. I count that against the Colts.

descendency · 08-23-2011, 11:49 PM

The Colts base their system around Manning, so when he comes out it's obviously going to be hard to replace him.

However, it really depends on why the Colts lose Manning. if they traded him (lol... yeah), then they'd get serious assets to put to building a team around another player. If he goes down for an injury, I think they'd probably see a significant shift in the schemes. Similarly, if he retired.

If Manning tore his ACL in the first quarter of the first game, I think they'd get 5 wins still. It's still a talented team and their coaching staff is better than it's given credit for.

Plus, to be perfectly honest, not every week in the NFL (or any sports league) does the best team win each week.

BeerBaron · 08-24-2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency

The Colts base their system around Manning, so when he comes out it's obviously going to be hard to replace him.

However, it really depends on why the Colts lose Manning. if they traded him (lol... yeah), then they'd get serious assets to put to building a team around another player. If he goes down for an injury, I think they'd probably see a significant shift in the schemes. Similarly, if he retired.

If Manning tore his ACL in the first quarter of the first game, I think they'd get 5 wins still. It's still a talented team and their coaching staff is better than it's given credit for.

Plus, to be perfectly honest, not every week in the NFL (or any sports league) does the best team win each week.

This was part of my original thought process when I said I thought they'd win 5 games. They would probably focus more heavily on running the ball and on the short passing game, and would adjust schemes accordingly. We'd probably see less of their receiving threat TEs and more emphasis on having them block.

And worst case scenario, if Carolina could win 2 games last year with Jimmy Clausen playing like a fish thrown onto dry land, Curtis Painter could QB the Colts to 2 wins.

wordofi · 08-24-2011, 12:16 AM

The Colts, regardless of whether Peyton Manning plays all 16 games this season, really need to start looking for a replacement. He's 35 years old and in the twilight of his career. The Patriots already have a hypothetical replacement in Ryan Mallett. The Colts have neglected the backup quarterback position. Now, it may cost them.

wordofi · 08-24-2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killxswitch

It's about time a Colts fan set you guys straight.

Ha, who am I kidding. The Colts would win 4 games max without Manning. Zero if the team stuck with Painter the whole year. Since it is hard to have an intimate knowledge of a team you don't live and breathe, let me walk you through the roster, the coaching staff, Bill Polian's drafts since 2006, etc.

OL - Absolutely terrible starting in 2008. When Tarik Glenn retired Bill Polian had no idea what to do and never did figure it out. His son Chris is GM now and the OL looks like it has some promise with new starters but we haven't seen them play with Manning yet.

RB - It doesn't matter. With this OL no RB is going to get to 1000 yards. Why do you think Manning threw almost 700 times last year?

TE - Clark is a good receiver but without Manning his value diminishes substantially. No one else on the roster at TE is worth anything w/out Manning.

WR - Wayne is a good player but I doubt he'd have developed without Manning (and without Harrison taking attention away from him). He would still produce. Garcon doesn't have a great chemistry with Manning so I'm not sure much would change. Collie, Gonzalez, etc, forget it. If the Colts got a competent backup, Wayne or Garcon might approach 1000 yards.

DL - Good pass-rushing DEs that don't try to play the run much. DT corps that looks better this year but is unproven.

LBs - Brackett is not that good and everyone else is a nobody. Small and easily pushed around. Not even that good in coverage anymore.

DBs - Bethea is great but can't make up for everyone else's mistakes. He has too many assignments. We have one, maybe two starting-material CBs and Powers gets hurt all the time.

Coaching - I'm not sure how much press this gets but the Colts have an embarrassing coaching staff. Caldwell is in over his head every game. No adjustments, no time management skills. DC Larry Coyer is old and has no idea how to use his pass rushers. Calls badly-timed LB blitzes using the smallest MLB in the league. And has the CBs play 10 yards off on 3rd and 4. Manning is basically the OC. OL coach is a former TE and this is his first-ever OL coaching gig. The QB and WR coaches switched jobs last year (WTF?).

Drafting - From 2007 - 2010, Bill Polian made 4 good picks out of 34. Jerraud Powers (CB, 3rd round, 2009), Austin Collie (WR, 4th rd, 2009), Pat McAfee (K/P, 7th rd, 2009), and Pierre Garcon (6th rd, 2008). The rest are unproven, injured too often, busts, went to other teams, or just never amounted to anything. I am just glad he's not running the team anymore.

The offense with a decent backup QB like Kitna or Garcia would be able to score here and there. The problem is the defense, which is badly coached and lacking in talent, would never give the offense enough opportunities to win games. With Manning I think this is a 10+ win team. If I am honest though I think they would be lucky to win 3 without him.

That is bad coaching and bad roster management. And meanwhile our freaking weird owner is too stuck in his haze of stoned tweeting to notice his team has been run into the ground. It is just stupid how much this team relies on Manning to succeed.

In Freeney and Mathis' defense, they're 6'1" and 6'2" respectively. It's hard for them to not get engulfed by a 6'6" offensive tackle.

Woody56 · 08-24-2011, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Not a problem for everybody...

Patriots have been one of the worst drafting teams for the past 5 years

BeerBaron · 08-24-2011, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody56

Patriots have been one of the worst drafting teams for the past 5 years

Last year alone, they matched the 4 players the Colts have drafted since 2007 (posted by KillSwitch earlier) who have been worth a damn with McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez and Mesko. Throw in Spikes and Cunningham who could still emerge as good players and in that one year, the Pats have drafted better than the Colts in the last 4 years combined. Plus Chung, Vollmer and Mayo in the years prior....the Colts would kill for some of those guys.

PLUS, the Pats continually trade for future picks.

Pats >>>>>> Colts when it comes to drafting recently.

hawkeye123 · 08-24-2011, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

This was part of my original thought process when I said I thought they'd win 5 games. They would probably focus more heavily on running the ball and on the short passing game, and would adjust schemes accordingly. We'd probably see less of their receiving threat TEs and more emphasis on having them block.

And worst case scenario, if Carolina could win 2 games last year with Jimmy Clausen playing like a fish thrown onto dry land, Curtis Painter could QB the Colts to 2 wins.

The Panthers barely won 2 games with Matt Moore starting. Clausen was a complete dud.

BeerBaron · 08-24-2011, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawkeye123

The Panthers barely won 2 games with Matt Moore starting. Clausen was a complete dud.

Well, regardless, they were a lousy team after all the injuries and they still won 2 games.

Woody56 · 08-24-2011, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Last year alone, they matched the 4 players the Colts have drafted since 2007 (posted by KillSwitch earlier) who have been worth a damn with McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez and Mesko. Throw in Spikes and Cunningham who could still emerge as good players and in that one year, the Pats have drafted better than the Colts in the last 4 years combined. Plus Chung, Vollmer and Mayo in the years prior....the Colts would kill for some of those guys.

PLUS, the Pats continually trade for future picks.

Pats >>>>>> Colts when it comes to drafting recently.

'10 was there first good draft in a long time.

06

1 Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota - Out of the NFL
2 Chad Jackson, WR, Florida - Huge bust, spent last year in UFL
3 David Thomas, TE, Texas - Saints
4 Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa - 5 teams in 5 years
4 Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis - Only good player, but is a K
5 Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California - Chiefs
6 Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida - Jags
6 Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame - Out of the NFL
6 Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska - Out of the NFL
7 Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor - Out of the NFL

This is considered by most Pats fans one of their worst drafts in team history

07

1 – Brandon Meriweather, S, Miami - Still on the team, but always hear Pats fans talk bad about him
4 - Kareem Brown, DL, Miami - Out of the NFL
5 - Clint Oldenburg, OL, Colorado State - Redskins
6 - Justin Rogers, LB, SMU - Out of the NFL
6 - Mike Richardson, DB, Notre Dame - Colts
6 - Justise Hairston, RB, Cen Conn - Out of the NFL
6 - Corey Hilliard, OL, OK St - Lions
7 - Oscar Lua, LB, USC - Out of the NFL
7 - Mike Elgin, OL, Iowa - Out of the NFL

Also considered one of the their worst drafts in team history. So now in a 2 year span, you have 2 players out of 19 that have contributed to the team and one is a K and the other is a fan least favorite.

08

1 - Jerod Mayo - LB, Tennessee - Success
2 - Terrence Wheatley, CB - Jags
3 - Shawn Crable, LB, Michigan - Out of the NFL
3 - Kevin O Connell, QB, SD St - Dolphins
4 - Jonathan Wilhite, CB, Auburn - Still on team, but on roster bubble
5 - Matt Slater, WR, UCLA - Still on team, ST only
6 - Bo Ruud, LB, Nebraska - Out of the NFL

So in three year span, 4 contributors out of 26 and two are special teamers only. One of the worst three spans in NFL draft history.

elway=goat · 08-24-2011, 02:42 AM

I wanna see them without him play, we haven't so its all speculation. My first reaction, somewhere into the 4-6 range. They would be a bad team, but not historic bad like people are making them out to be. That's my first reaction to the thought of him not playing this season, and before I look over their schedule.

With him, they win 9-10 this season.

cmarq83 · 08-24-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody56

'10 was there first good draft in a long time.

06

1 Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota - Out of the NFL
2 Chad Jackson, WR, Florida - Huge bust, spent last year in UFL
3 David Thomas, TE, Texas - Saints
4 Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa - 5 teams in 5 years
4 Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis - Only good player, but is a K
5 Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California - Chiefs
6 Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida - Jags
6 Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame - Out of the NFL
6 Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska - Out of the NFL
7 Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor - Out of the NFL

This is considered by most Pats fans one of their worst drafts in team history

07

1 – Brandon Meriweather, S, Miami - Still on the team, but always hear Pats fans talk bad about him
4 - Kareem Brown, DL, Miami - Out of the NFL
5 - Clint Oldenburg, OL, Colorado State - Redskins
6 - Justin Rogers, LB, SMU - Out of the NFL
6 - Mike Richardson, DB, Notre Dame - Colts
6 - Justise Hairston, RB, Cen Conn - Out of the NFL
6 - Corey Hilliard, OL, OK St - Lions
7 - Oscar Lua, LB, USC - Out of the NFL
7 - Mike Elgin, OL, Iowa - Out of the NFL

Also considered one of the their worst drafts in team history. So now in a 2 year span, you have 2 players out of 19 that have contributed to the team and one is a K and the other is a fan least favorite.

08

1 - Jerod Mayo - LB, Tennessee - Success
2 - Terrence Wheatley, CB - Jags
3 - Shawn Crable, LB, Michigan - Out of the NFL
3 - Kevin O Connell, QB, SD St - Dolphins
4 - Jonathan Wilhite, CB, Auburn - Still on team, but on roster bubble
5 - Matt Slater, WR, UCLA - Still on team, ST only
6 - Bo Ruud, LB, Nebraska - Out of the NFL

So in three year span, 4 contributors out of 26 and two are special teamers only. One of the worst three spans in NFL draft history.

Yet you neglected to mention the 2 most recent years which were really good drafts, and they've had some UDFA steals along the way (Guyton, Lawfirm).

Brent · 08-24-2011, 06:10 AM

I thought Dan Orlovsky was the #2. Is that incorrect?

killxswitch · 08-24-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency

It's still a talented team and their coaching staff is better than it's given credit for.

If they'd built on the progress made in 09 I might agree with you. But the '10 season completely removed any possibility of that being true. I would take the Bengals coaching staff over what we have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent

I thought Dan Orlovsky was the #2. Is that incorrect?

Orlovsky might be the QB3 if they decide to keep 3 but it appears the Colts are going to stick with Painter as the primary backup for some reason.

SolidGold · 08-24-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killxswitch

If they'd built on the progress made in 09 I might agree with you. But the '10 season completely removed any possibility of that being true. I would take the Bengals coaching staff over what we have.

Orlovsky might be the QB3 if they decide to keep 3 but it appears the Colts are going to stick with Painter as the primary backup for some reason.

Manning is pretty much the offensive coordinator. Caldwell seems a little outmatched in games. The players may like him and he seems like a real good guy but without Manning he probably would be out of a job. Once Manning is gone I expect their to be huge turnover in that organization.

The Colts will need to draft his eventual replacement in the next year or two. I like that they addressed the offensive line early in this draft.

Brothgar · 08-24-2011, 10:13 AM

I'm going to say 2 wins unless they trade for a Ryan Mallett or something right now there are probably 5 backups who could be a starter for the Colts and get 6+ wins

Matthew Jones · 08-24-2011, 10:16 AM

So they'll be going with Kerry Collins if Manning isn't ready. I think they could still win a few games. I'd say six.

nepg · 08-24-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody56

'10 was there first good draft in a long time.

06

1 Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota - Out of the NFL
2 Chad Jackson, WR, Florida - Huge bust, spent last year in UFL
3 David Thomas, TE, Texas - Saints
4 Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa - 5 teams in 5 years
4 Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis - Only good player, but is a K
5 Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California - Chiefs
6 Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida - Jags
6 Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame - Out of the NFL
6 Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska - Out of the NFL
7 Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor - Out of the NFL

This is considered by most Pats fans one of their worst drafts in team history

07

1 – Brandon Meriweather, S, Miami - Still on the team, but always hear Pats fans talk bad about him
4 - Kareem Brown, DL, Miami - Out of the NFL
5 - Clint Oldenburg, OL, Colorado State - Redskins
6 - Justin Rogers, LB, SMU - Out of the NFL
6 - Mike Richardson, DB, Notre Dame - Colts
6 - Justise Hairston, RB, Cen Conn - Out of the NFL
6 - Corey Hilliard, OL, OK St - Lions
7 - Oscar Lua, LB, USC - Out of the NFL
7 - Mike Elgin, OL, Iowa - Out of the NFL

Also considered one of the their worst drafts in team history. So now in a 2 year span, you have 2 players out of 19 that have contributed to the team and one is a K and the other is a fan least favorite.

08

1 - Jerod Mayo - LB, Tennessee - Success
2 - Terrence Wheatley, CB - Jags
3 - Shawn Crable, LB, Michigan - Out of the NFL
3 - Kevin O Connell, QB, SD St - Dolphins
4 - Jonathan Wilhite, CB, Auburn - Still on team, but on roster bubble
5 - Matt Slater, WR, UCLA - Still on team, ST only
6 - Bo Ruud, LB, Nebraska - Out of the NFL

So in three year span, 4 contributors out of 26 and two are special teamers only. One of the worst three spans in NFL draft history.

What? They replaced the entire roster in the last 3 (which you conveniently left out) drafts and have maintained their dominance over the AFC East... Lay off the crack.

And most people graded the '06 draft as one of - if not the best draft that year.

killxswitch · 08-24-2011, 10:59 AM

So do I jump out a window now or do I wait to hear that Manning isn't going to start the season?

BeerBaron · 08-24-2011, 11:00 AM

You know **** is bad when Kerry Collins represents an upgrade.