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Old 08-28-2011, 01:47 AM    (permalink
Ness
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Geez you guys are really pathetic for thinking we'll go anything less then 7-9. Our division BLOWS. If we can go 8-8 and 6-10 with Mike Singletary, Jimmy Raye, and Greg Manusky we can easily go 9-7 with Harbaugh. With that said, and with the new system/culture/lockout i realistically seeing us going 8-8 or 9-7, depending on injuries.

And can we stop with this hope of getting Andrew Luck. It's not happening. We can go 4-12 (which is absolute worst case scenario) and we still won't be close to the 1st pick. Whoever gets the first pick will take Andrew Luck.
The Rams look like they've gotten better, and so does Arizona. The regular season hasn't started yet true, but the starters on both of those teams have looked decent to sharp. Can't say the same for the 49ers who can't even get their pass protection in order. The Rams and the Cardinals could easily beat us and we face the AFC North. I'd be surprised if we win more than 6 games. Think about it. We have a new head coach installing a brand new offense. That is going to take time to learn. The lockout was a huge blow to that as well. Not to mention we don't have an established starter at quarterback or wide receiver. That combined with a new coaching staff does not bode well for success right out of the gate. The only bright spot I see is the defense, but if the offense keeps playing flat and committing three and outs the defense will tire out and eventually look terrible.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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There are some guys out there like Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady that have the ability to still play well even if they are getting pounded all game.
Rodgers didn't look that great in 2009 when he was getting pounded, and Brady looked like garbage last night when he was getting pounded. He had a TD pass, but on that play, the pocket was completely clean (didn't see ONCE in 49ers game) and Welker was open by 15 yards.

I agree that improving talent is one thing, but that talent doesn't matter if it can't be utilized.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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Rodgers didn't look that great in 2009 when he was getting pounded, and Brady looked like garbage last night when he was getting pounded. He had a TD pass, but on that play, the pocket was completely clean (didn't see ONCE in 49ers game) and Welker was open by 15 yards.

I agree that improving talent is one thing, but that talent doesn't matter if it can't be utilized.
But Alex must turn water into wine for me not to boo him. I lived during the Montana and Young era and Bill Walsh would have never let last night happen. /typical KNBR caller or Damon Bruce.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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One thing that really bothered me last night was Whiter saying that the 49ers did not game plan at all. I understand if you wanna go out there and run your base offense/defense but with all of the off season wiped away Harbaugh just wasted valuable reps for the first team offense.

At work so caught the second half. Dobbs (if he already hadn't) is a lock to make the 53 man roster. Worst time for RoJo to have a bad game. Ugly drop followed up by a miffed kick return. Good to see Ziegler back out there. Hope he gets a chance on Thursday to make the roster.

Aside from that this will be remember as the Holy Grail of bad preseason games. Just dreadful to watch, especially for a third preseason game.
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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The Rams look like they've gotten better, and so does Arizona. The regular season hasn't started yet true, but the starters on both of those teams have looked decent to sharp. Can't say the same for the 49ers who can't even get their pass protection in order. The Rams and the Cardinals could easily beat us and we face the AFC North. I'd be surprised if we win more than 6 games. Think about it. We have a new head coach installing a brand new offense. That is going to take time to learn. The lockout was a huge blow to that as well. Not to mention we don't have an established starter at quarterback or wide receiver. That combined with a new coaching staff does not bode well for success right out of the gate. The only bright spot I see is the defense, but if the offense keeps playing flat and committing three and outs the defense will tire out and eventually look terrible.
Your putting way too much stock into pre-season. Remember how good we looked in pre-season last year? Believe half of what you see my friend. The line has issues but I'm not overly worried. We were very vanilla on D. Cover 2 shell on third downs mostly, only rushing 4. Lots of zone against multiple WR sets. Anytime I see Aldon Smith in man coverage on Owen Daniels in the slot, I can't take that as a serious game-plan. That's not something I think you'll see in the regular season. O-Line breakdowns are a concerned but I don't believe the constant shuffling in and out of bodies during the first half helped cohesion. Once Harbs settles on the 5 starters and lets them build up some chemistry leading up to the opener, I think those problems will iron themselves out.

The Rams look improved but still nothing to be overly concerned about. The Cards still have no pass-rush and no O-Line. Couple of good showings in pre-season wont change that. If we look like this Sept 11, then maybe I might worry but until then I don't see it as "the sky is falling".
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
Rodgers didn't look that great in 2009 when he was getting pounded, and Brady looked like garbage last night when he was getting pounded. He had a TD pass, but on that play, the pocket was completely clean (didn't see ONCE in 49ers game) and Welker was open by 15 yards.

I agree that improving talent is one thing, but that talent doesn't matter if it can't be utilized.
Rogers did look great in 2009. He was still productive despite getting dropped all the time and was one of the highest rated quarterbacks in the league. The team still had one of the most potent offenses in the NFL especially through the air, despite all of those sacks. Even if you have a bad line, having better talent under center still counts.

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Your putting way too much stock into pre-season. Remember how good we looked in pre-season last year? Believe half of what you see my friend. The line has issues but I'm not overly worried. We were very vanilla on D. Cover 2 shell on third downs mostly, only rushing 4. Lots of zone against multiple WR sets. Anytime I see Aldon Smith in man coverage on Owen Daniels in the slot, I can't take that as a serious game-plan. That's not something I think you'll see in the regular season. O-Line breakdowns are a concerned but I don't believe the constant shuffling in and out of bodies during the first half helped cohesion. Once Harbs settles on the 5 starters and lets them build up some chemistry leading up to the opener, I think those problems will iron themselves out.

The Rams look improved but still nothing to be overly concerned about. The Cards still have no pass-rush and no O-Line. Couple of good showings in pre-season wont change that. If we look like this Sept 11, then maybe I might worry but until then I don't see it as "the sky is falling".
And I think you're being way too optimistic. I felt the same way before the first preseason game. New head coaching staff, practically zero proved players on offense, and little time to prepare with the lockout spells disaster. The only things that have changed thus far is that the Rams and Cardinals look better than advertised. We didn't look good in preseason last year. At least the starters didn't "wow" me. My gripe is mostly on the offensive line and the guys losing their one on ones. Preseason has nothing to do with players simply getting beat at the point of attack.
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Old 08-28-2011, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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This game was indeed tough watch but there is a method to Harbaugh's madness, and we'll see in a year or two if this process pays off. I tryst that he is the right man for the job and is easily the best HC we've had seen Mariucci. He and his coaching staff were at one of the biggest disadvantages in the league with the lockout. It's hard to make an impact when you can't see your players, give them playbooks, have OTA's to evaluate them (other then tape), change up combinations (like the O-Line) to find chemistry. So, Harbaugh & Co. are using the preseason to make a lot of these important evaluations, finding his guys that can be coached up and improve, playing better together eventually. It's a whole different strategy, which is behind a team like the Texans, who have a proven explosive offense with roles defined. Therefore, we should expect the Niners to get rolled. The question is; how much of this ugliness will carry over into the regular season? Hopefully, Harbaugh will have figures out the pieces of the puzzle by then and can put players in better positions where they'll shine.

Kap is still green but he looks more poised than Alex back there. Neither guy had much time to throw it but at this point, Alex must only be distancing himself during practice, as there's not much of a gap in games, especially considering how many years of experience Alex has on Kap.

The most interesting thing to watch the whole game was Harbaugh's truck with the huge spider web that's been accumulating since Feb and he won't wash the truck and kill the spider. They said Harbaugh told them he talks to the spider....wonder what he's telling it?
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Old 08-28-2011, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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And I think you're being way too optimistic. I felt the same way before the first preseason game. New head coaching staff, practically zero proved players on offense, and little time to prepare with the lockout spells disaster. The only things that have changed thus far is that the Rams and Cardinals look better than advertised. We didn't look good in preseason last year. At least the starters didn't "wow" me. My gripe is mostly on the offensive line and the guys losing their one on ones. Preseason has nothing to do with players simply getting beat at the point of attack.
It wasn't all one on one. Alot of it was just simple mis-communication. Antonio Smith came through on stunts a couple of times. And thats what I think will improve with time. Alot of those communications issue have to be ironed out through reps together, something that's hard to do when your moving guys around, trying to evaulate talent. You see Synder start the game as the center, leave, then come back in at RG. Its hard to get a rhythm between 5 guys doing things of that nature. Once the starters are settled on and guys get to get a bulk of the work together, I think those issues will be non-existent. Call it optimism or whatever. I just cant get too worked up over meaningless game we obviously didn't gameplan for. Especially when one team is treating it like a dress rehersal and the other is treating it like a talent evaluation.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to see what I'm typing since I gouged my eyes out during the game last night.

I think we're in for a loooooooooong season again.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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It wasn't all one on one. Alot of it was just simple mis-communication. Antonio Smith came through on stunts a couple of times. And thats what I think will improve with time. Alot of those communications issue have to be ironed out through reps together, something that's hard to do when your moving guys around, trying to evaulate talent. You see Synder start the game as the center, leave, then come back in at RG. Its hard to get a rhythm between 5 guys doing things of that nature. Once the starters are settled on and guys get to get a bulk of the work together, I think those issues will be non-existent. Call it optimism or whatever. I just cant get too worked up over meaningless game we obviously didn't gameplan for. Especially when one team is treating it like a dress rehersal and the other is treating it like a talent evaluation.
Eh. It's easy to say it was a "this or that" game when you get blasted. Kind of just comes off as a terrible excuse. The 49ers looked awful plain and simple. Whether it's guys sucking or just being plain inexperienced, it's going to take it's toll when the regular season starts. It's unrealistic for a team that has so many new variables involved to "iron things out" and be really productive in a short amount of time. Even if the experience issue wasn't a factor, the players we have may just not be good period.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Rogers did look great in 2009. He was still productive despite getting dropped all the time and was one of the highest rated quarterbacks in the league. The team still had one of the most potent offenses in the NFL especially through the air, despite all of those sacks. Even if you have a bad line, having better talent under center still counts.
He didn't look good when he was getting crushed. No QB does. I'm not comparing proficiency here, I'm comparing apples to oranges when it comes to protection. I believe it was Sando who wrote the article about someone who used a stop-watch to compare the protections between Rodgers and Smith. Rodgers was sacked more often but it was chalked up to him trying to make plays in the pocket. He was sacked at just under 4 seconds per sack while Smith was sacked at under 3 seconds I believe.

It's a totally different thing.

Rewatch how Brady looked last night. There's a difference between taking sacks, and having absolutely no chance other than to be sacked. In the latter, no QB has success.

This isn't an Alexcuse... it's an excuse for ANY QB that is regularly being sacked before they even finish their drop-backs let alone have time to make read-progressions. Even when there's time to make a read, the pocket is collapsing. It's terrible. I'd like to see a clean pocket for once. I mean a truly clean pocket. You know, like the one's the 49ers opponent's QB always have.
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Old 08-28-2011, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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The future QB isn't on the roster imo. Kap just doesn't look like he'll translate, jut a feeling I have..the guy is just too funky and inaccurate with his throws, I can't see him being good.

Alex really had no chance, dude was getting roughed up on his final step of the drop, that's ridiculous. If we bring in another rookie next year, he's gonna get crushed too...this oline is so freakin' dire.
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Old 08-28-2011, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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After reading the last page plus worth of posts, im going to assume that the 49ers OL is their biggest problem and needs to be fixed because if its not, it wont matter who our QB, RB and WR's are.

And I guess the ratings in Madden for the OL (Staley 88, Iupati 88, Goodwin 80, Snyder/Rachal 79 and Davis 77) are overrated. Oh well. I have only played a few quick games thus far and must admit love the signing of Braylon Edwards. Really hoping he can have a good season and we extend him and its sad that im doing better in Madden than the team is doing in reality.

With that said, lets just wait until the season opener in two weeks before we go nuts or anything.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Here's a cringe-inducing reminder of last night...

Quote:
Alex Smith, for example, dropped back for eight passes and was hit five times (three pressures, two sacks). The three occasions in which Smith dropped back and wasn't drilled? One was on a designed rollout, another was a three-step drop on a slant to Ted Ginn and the other came when he was in the shotgun, took two steps and had his pass batted down at the line.

In other words, Smith was dropkicked any time he took a five-step drop. His two completions came on the rollout and the slant to Ginn.

As announcer Tim Ryan said late in the second half, "He can't even get to his back step."

FIRST DRIVE

2-7-SF27: Smith takes a three-step drop, plants and finds Ginn on a slant for an eight-yard gain.

3-5-SF40: Texans LB Connor Barwin lines up over LT Joe Staley, shoves his left hand into Staley's chest and bull rushes his way to Smith. Result: six-yard sack.

SECOND DRIVE

1-10-SF 20: On a designed rollout, Smith finds Josh Morgan open in the right flat for a nine-yard gain.

2-1-SF 29: LG Mike Iupati begins by blocking down on DT Shaun Cody, who is being blocked by C Jonathan Goodwin. Iupati quickly reverses course and turns left, but it's too late. DE Antonio Smith (get used to this name) blows by Iupati and throws Smith on his back for a seven-yard loss. After the game, Iupati said he had a "brain f--t" on one play. Guessing this was the f--t in question.

3-8-SF 21: Antonio Smith slides by RG Adam Snyder and hits Alex Smith in the waist as he throws. Smith's sideline pass to Ginn sails high. Ginn catches the pass, but can't stay in bounds.

FIFTH DRIVE

1-10-SF 31: Smith, in the shotgun, takes a two-step drop, plants and has his pass batted down at the line by DE J.J. Watt.

SIXTH DRIVE

1-10-HOU 47: Antonio Smith blows by RG Chilo Rachal, forcing Alex Smith to step up and, in mid-throw, get leveled by ILB Brian Cushing, who was lined up at left defensive end and looped by RT Alex Boone. Result: Smith floats an incomplete duck in the right flat.

2-10-HOU 47: The first-half ends fittingly for the Niners offense. Watt, lined up in front of Iupati, stunts and is picked up by Rachal. But that's it for the good news. Antonio Smith, lined up in front of Rachal, loops rights, overpowers C Jonathan Goodwin and pops Smith in the sternum, forcing a wobbly interception to Nolan. A half-beat after Antonio Smith nails him, Barwin hits Smith in the back after bull rushing through Iupati and Staley.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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/Borat gouges eyes out again.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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He didn't look good when he was getting crushed. No QB does. I'm not comparing proficiency here, I'm comparing apples to oranges when it comes to protection. I believe it was Sando who wrote the article about someone who used a stop-watch to compare the protections between Rodgers and Smith. Rodgers was sacked more often but it was chalked up to him trying to make plays in the pocket. He was sacked at just under 4 seconds per sack while Smith was sacked at under 3 seconds I believe.

It's a totally different thing.

Rewatch how Brady looked last night. There's a difference between taking sacks, and having absolutely no chance other than to be sacked. In the latter, no QB has success.

This isn't an Alexcuse... it's an excuse for ANY QB that is regularly being sacked before they even finish their drop-backs let alone have time to make read-progressions. Even when there's time to make a read, the pocket is collapsing. It's terrible. I'd like to see a clean pocket for once. I mean a truly clean pocket. You know, like the one's the 49ers opponent's QB always have.
Regardless, one quarterback makes plays with a terrible pocket, the other one doesn't. There are quarterbacks out there that have quicker feet, quicker mechanics, and just make better decisions. Rodgers goes out and puts up 30 touchdowns with a terrible pocket. He doesn't need an excuse.

You're telling me that if the 49ers have a shot at Andrew Luck and pick him he is no possible way going to help? It isn't possible to have a more productive player under center even if the offensive line overall isn't great? Is this possible yes or no?
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Regardless, one quarterback makes plays with a terrible pocket, the other one doesn't. There are quarterbacks out there that have quicker feet, quicker mechanics, and just make better decisions. Rodgers goes out and puts up 30 touchdowns with a terrible pocket. He doesn't need an excuse.

You're telling me that if the 49ers have a shot at Andrew Luck and pick him he is no possible way going to help? It isn't possible to have a more productive player under center even if the offensive line overall isn't great? Is this possible yes or no?
You're completely ignoring MY point in hopes of getting YOURS across.

1. I support improvement at ALL positions including QB.
2. Many QBs are bettter than Alex Smith (including Aaron Rodgers.)


MY point...

Aaron Rodgers has NEVER, I repeat NEVER been consistently sacked at the rate and ease as Smith. Even his "quicke feet" and "quicker mechanics" would be COMPLETELY USELESS if he's getting hit on his back step.

I'm not arguing past seasons. I'm merely admonishing that it is IMPOSSIBLE to read a QB in Harbaugh's 49ers offense currently. The QB simply doesn't have time to pass the ball.

If a 49ers QB routinely had time AND sucked it up, then yes, I would be on the same side of the argument as you. Currently, it doesn't matter what QB is placed back there.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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The future QB isn't on the roster imo. Kap just doesn't look like he'll translate, jut a feeling I have..the guy is just too funky and inaccurate with his throws, I can't see him being good.

Alex really had no chance, dude was getting roughed up on his final step of the drop, that's ridiculous. If we bring in another rookie next year, he's gonna get crushed too...this oline is so freakin' dire.
We can make a lot of changes on the offensive line in a year's time. Draft better, free agency, and trades. We really need an upgrade at tackle. Staley looks like he's getting worse every year.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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You're telling me that if the 49ers have a shot at Andrew Luck and pick him he is no possible way going to help? It isn't possible to have a more productive player under center even if the offensive line overall isn't great? Is this possible yes or no?
Yes, that's what I'm telling you. No QB, ZERO, can have success if they can't even set their back foot and make an initial read.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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You're completely ignoring MY point in hopes of getting YOURS across.

1. I support improvement at ALL positions including QB.
2. Many QBs are bettter than Alex Smith (including Aaron Rodgers.)


MY point...

Aaron Rodgers has NEVER, I repeat NEVER been consistently sacked at the rate and ease as Smith. Even his "quicke feet" and "quicker mechanics" would be COMPLETELY USELESS if he's getting hit on his back step.

I'm not arguing past seasons. I'm merely admonishing that it is IMPOSSIBLE to read a QB in Harbaugh's 49ers offense currently. The QB simply doesn't have time to pass the ball.

If a 49ers QB routinely had time AND sucked it up, then yes, I would be on the same side of the argument as you. Currently, it doesn't matter what QB is placed back there.
Not really. I understood what you had to say. I just disagreed with it. We need upgrades at a lot of positions and quarterback is one of them. I felt this way before Harbaugh was even hired.

All in all it doesn't matter. Alex is gone in a year and someone else will be under center even if our offensive line is to blame. The 49ers are too inexperienced/don't have enough good players on offense to make any kind of playoff push even in the NFC West. Smith's fate is sealed unless he magically turns into Peyton Manning and the offensive line magically starts to play top notch.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Yes, that's what I'm telling you. No QB, ZERO, can have success if they can't even set their back foot and make an initial read.
Oh I completely disagree here then. I'm watching the 49ers game now. And there have been a couple instances where the pocket was clean. It was minimal, but they were there. It's not the worst pocket I've ever seen. And there have been quarterbacks with just as bad of a line that have still put up good to great seasons or have a great game. My point is, it's still possible to have some success with a bad line. Even as bad as the one the 49ers have now. It's not impossible. If you feel different then whatever.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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Not really. I understood what you had to say. I just disagreed with it. We need upgrades at a lot of positions and quarterback is one of them. I felt this way before Harbaugh was even hired.

All in all it doesn't matter. Alex is gone in a year and someone else will be under center even if our offensive line is to blame. The 49ers are too inexperienced/don't have enough good players on offense to make any kind of playoff push even in the NFC West. Smith's fate is sealed unless he magically turns into Peyton Manning and the offensive line magically starts to play top notch.
I don't know if you feel I'm being a Smith apologist. I'm not. I haven't concluded whether Smith has any ability in Harbaugh's offense. He hasn't even had an opportunity to prove INability.

I don't know how you can argue that ANY NFL QB could show anything when they're being crushed in 5 of 8 dropbacks.

Aaron Rodgers would've looked like crap.
Tom Brady would've looked like crap.
Peyton manning wouldv'e looked like crap.
Andrew Luck would've looked like crap.

If Smith is one-and-done (as you believe) then you've already won. The LINE needs fixed.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Oh I completely disagree here then. I'm watching the 49ers game now. And there have been a couple instances where the pocket was clean. It was minimal, but they were there. It's not the worst pocket I've ever seen. And there have been quarterbacks with just as bad of a line that have still put up good to great seasons or have a great game. My point is, it's still possible to have some success with a bad line. Even as bad as the one the 49ers have now. It's not impossible. If you feel different then whatever.
Be specific...

He dropped back 8 times.

Hit 5 times (no pocket)
6. Ball deflected (pocket collapsed)
7. Hit Ginn on a slant
8. Rolled out and hit Morgan.

Now where did you see your examples, again?
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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Granted this is only an example of three of his 8 drop backs... it's a micro-cosm.

He's hit in under 2 full seconds on two and less than 3 on the other. Even from the shotgun. It's always been said a QB needs to get rid of the ball in 4 seconds, not 2 or 3.


Snap at 1:20


Wrapped up at 1:22


Snap at 1:29


Wrapped up at 1:31


Snap at 2:16


Steps into a throw (No Pocket) Hit at 2:19


Here's the full highlight clip...

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if you feel I'm being a Smith apologist. I'm not. I haven't concluded whether Smith has any ability in Harbaugh's offense. He hasn't even had an opportunity to prove INability.

I don't know how you can argue that ANY NFL QB could show anything when they're being crushed in 5 of 8 dropbacks.

Aaron Rodgers would've looked like crap.
Tom Brady would've looked like crap.
Peyton manning wouldv'e looked like crap.
Andrew Luck would've looked like crap.

If Smith is one-and-done (as you believe) then you've already won. The LINE needs fixed.
Oh I'm saying despite the line, Smith looks terrible. He should have been off the team years ago. It's beyond "one and done".
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