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Old 03-04-2012, 10:25 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Oh come on. You cannot be serious with this now.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This happens EVERY YEAR after the combine, but rein it in a bit. That is ridiculous.
Huge, athletic prospects that test through the roof but fail to dominate mediocre competition? What do you like about him besides his measurables?
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Tony Pauline has heard from pro scouts that some teams have Poe as number 3 overall on there boards
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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Zombie Al Davis is running a franchise?
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:54 AM    (permalink
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https://twitter.com/#!/RUSSLANDE

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After finishing film evaluation of Memphis Dontari Poe it seems clear to me that he is much more of a big 3 tech DT than a true NT.
Memphis DT D. Poe does not play like an elite talent on film often enough & reminds me of former 1st Rd Picks Ryan Sims & Jimmy Kennedy.

@evilmiamimonkey - I do not know about under-achieving. I think rather he tests out as a better athlete than he is on football field.

Poe seems more comfortable using quicks to attacks gaps & penetrate. Doesn't play like a true 2-gap, run stuffing clogger

Poe probably would fit best as a 5 tech DE in a 34 like San Diego or Pittsburgh plays, not in KC's 34 scheme as well though.

@SteelPerch - Poe does not remind of Red Bryant as Bryant is a big, strong DL who excels anchoring the POA & uses long arms to make plays.
I agree with all of it.

And I doubt KC or PIT drafts him. He's not a natural NT.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:14 AM    (permalink
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I'm in agreement on Poe not being a natural nose tackle; he's more effective trying to penetrate than anchoring because he has no balance and no concept of leverage. He gets controlled easily at times by much smaller opponents because he's so tall and upright on the field. The picture posted on the previous page of Albert Haynesworth is actually more relevant than expected because Haynesworth is around the same size as Poe and functioned primarily as an under tackle during his career as well. Not many 3-4 nose tackles in the NFL are as tall as Poe because a stout frame makes it easier to get leverage; Poe needs to figure out how to consistently get under defenders to win in the NFL and it's fair to ask why he hasn't been able to by this point. Yes, NFL coaches are more capable than coaches at the lower levels, but it's not like Poe is some kind of alien being who has never heard of football; he's been doing this for years and he still hasn't figured out how to dominate despite significant physical advantages. The pro game is primarily focused on evaluating and integrating talent rather than developing it.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:58 AM    (permalink
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I agree with all of it.

And I doubt KC or PIT drafts him. He's not a natural NT.
Pitt would. He is a natural 3-4 DE, and they can use one. The Chiefs are stacked at DE.

J
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Poe haters are missing the point. nose tackles don't produce stats... at any level. look at Haloti Ngata's stats the guy gets 3 sacks a year maybe. the role is to occupy, table set and let the LB free to make plays. He's a borderline top 10 selection and he deserves it. where does he fit in a defense? like the 400 pound gorilla he goes wherever he wants. 0 tech, 1 tech, 3 tech, 5 tech. He can get reps at a variety of positions.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Pitt would. He is a natural 3-4 DE, and they can use one. The Chiefs are stacked at DE.

J
Pitt isn't stacked at 3-4 DE's?
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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Poe haters are missing the point. nose tackles don't produce stats... at any level. look at Haloti Ngata's stats the guy gets 3 sacks a year maybe. the role is to occupy, table set and let the LB free to make plays. He's a borderline top 10 selection and he deserves it. where does he fit in a defense? like the 400 pound gorilla he goes wherever he wants. 0 tech, 1 tech, 3 tech, 5 tech. He can get reps at a variety of positions.
Yep...they don't produce stats. Look at the damn tape though. With his size, and athleticism, he should be commanding triple teams...he doesn't even get a double on any semblance of a consistent basis.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Did you watch Memphis games? He was double and triple teamed a LOT last year.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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At DT you don't have to be "on" all of the time, but you do have to be "on" some of the time.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Did you watch Memphis games? He was double and triple teamed a LOT last year.
By 275-290# Olineman.

His measurables I guess you could argue warrant Poe being drafted in the first, but no way top 10.

If I had to draft pure spec on a prospect who has little game film to justify being taken high in the first round, I'd go for a guy like WR Stephen Hill over Poe.

I can see Poe never developing into a good to elite player and end up being a reserve for much of his career.

Miss St. DT Fletcher Cox should be the first interior DLineman taken. He's a genuine top 10-15 talent and his combine numbers were absurd.

I just can't get past the fact the Poe didn't have ONE outright dominant game in C-USA.

Ndamukong Suh was consistently double and triple teamed at Nebraska and was still virtually unstoppable in college. In the pros he had an awesome rookie year, but even a high motor guy like Suh has discovered he doesn't have the tools to physically overpower NFL Olineman on every single play.

I doubt Poe can be productive anywhere in the pros EXCEPT NT. A guy who clogs the middle in the run game and occasionally forces a chip block from the guard.

Warren Sapp said on NFLN he'd love to coach a guy like Dontari Poe and try to tap his freakish potential, but I don't think you can put fire in the heart of an athlete if it isn't already there.
I just don't think Poe has it.

Poe's game film is 7th rounder/UDFA.
His combine is top 5 talent.

That makes his real value IMO no earlier than the 4th round.


When is the last time a JAG player at a mid major school became a pro bowl talent in the NFL???
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Poe haters are missing the point. nose tackles don't produce stats... at any level. look at Haloti Ngata's stats the guy gets 3 sacks a year maybe. the role is to occupy, table set and let the LB free to make plays. He's a borderline top 10 selection and he deserves it. where does he fit in a defense? like the 400 pound gorilla he goes wherever he wants. 0 tech, 1 tech, 3 tech, 5 tech. He can get reps at a variety of positions.
He didn't do that at freaking Memphis.

No one is talking about stats. Watch just a little tape (I watched just two games), and you'll get what Lande and his critics on this site are talking about.

And I know this is a point that FUNBUNCH is driving home to argue his stance, but I'm curious to know if anyone can come up with an answer...

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When is the last time a JAG player at a mid major school became a pro bowl talent in the NFL???
Anyone?
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Poe's game film is 7th rounder/UDFA.
His combine is top 5 talent.
Well, that is untrue. He's not Haloti Ngata on film, but the evidence is there. Heck, he played DE more than DT in college and was out of position. He's not a penetrator, even at his size and speed, pass rush isn't his forte. But he DOES eat up space and looks like a 1st round nose tackle on film IMO of the 5 games I have seen.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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also keep in mind that every NFL Coach believes he can coach up a raw lump of clay and transform him into a great player. For example Jason Pierre Paul it would have been very easy to say JPP does backflips but has very little production in the Big east. And many teams did say that. JPP had 6.5 sacks in his Big East career, fact. is that worse than 5 career sacks for a DT? Considering the positional difference it might be...

Poe is like the JPP of DT. to run a 4.8 and put up 44 at 350 that's not just rare it's once in a generation. I've never heard of a DT put up those raw numbers. No one has heard of that size/speed/strength combo, cause it doesn't happen.

I don't care if he spent his Memphis career in the stands, drinking beer and waving a foamy number one hand. He's going to be drafted high and the planet theory says it's deserved.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Anyone?
Well, Gene Smith took the job in 09, so only 3 drafts down, it is tough to get Pro Bowlers out of that.

And the answer would be David Garrard, unless ECU isn't small enough...
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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Well, Gene Smith took the job in 09, so only 3 drafts down, it is tough to get Pro Bowlers out of that.

And the answer would be David Garrard, unless ECU isn't small enough...
Sorry. JAG = Just A Guy. In other words, not much production and/or didn't jump out on film.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Sorry. JAG = Just A Guy. In other words, not much production and/or didn't jump out on film.
What other caveats are there? Does he have to be a first round player? If so, he wasn't a "JAG." Poe jumps out on film, he pops out if you are browsing a Memphis game. Once again, he played more DE in the tape I watched than DT. Doesn't help you evaluate him as a NT as much. It also doesn't help your production being a 350 pound DE, but they had NO pass rush around him and placed him in situations where they felt he could get to the passer.

So, you have a guy playing out of position, asked to rush the passer at 350 pounds, and getting double teams most of the time. Tough to be successful or even play like a NT in those situations.

Look at the SMU game, there were apparent line calls to move plays away from Poe in the run game (and the pass game). Zach Line barely had to deal with Poe in the game.

Does that mean he will be successful in the NFL? No, but it is like Cam Newton last year. There is so much UNKNOWN about Poe. But you look at the measureables and there is a lot of potential there to be a mix of every type of defensive lineman.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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What other caveats are there? Does he have to be a first round player? If so, he wasn't a "JAG." Poe jumps out on film, he pops out if you are browsing a Memphis game. Once again, he played more DE in the tape I watched than DT. Doesn't help you evaluate him as a NT as much. It also doesn't help your production being a 350 pound DE, but they had NO pass rush around him and placed him in situations where they felt he could get to the passer.

So, you have a guy playing out of position, asked to rush the passer at 350 pounds, and getting double teams most of the time. Tough to be successful or even play like a NT in those situations.

Look at the SMU game, there were apparent line calls to move plays away from Poe in the run game (and the pass game). Zach Line barely had to deal with Poe in the game.

Does that mean he will be successful in the NFL? No, but it is like Cam Newton last year. There is so much UNKNOWN about Poe. But you look at the measureables and there is a lot of potential there to be a mix of every type of defensive lineman.
I agree with what you're saying. I don't like unknown that high in the draft though. Cam Newton stood out on film and showed incredible talent in terms of his QB-specific skills. And he was also an awesome athlete.

Poe, from what we know, is an awesome athlete and decent football player with no positional fit in the NFL. He plays like a UT on film. No one is taking the 350-pound Poe to play UT in the NFL.

I'd much rather take a guy who has shown the ability to play the position he is projected to in the NFL at a high level in college. And there are plenty of those guys available where Poe is projected to go.

The fact is, he played DE in college, against fairly weak competition (not close to what he'll see in the NFL), and showed limited/inconsistent football-specific defensive lineman skills. Hands, leverage, balance, technique in general.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:34 PM    (permalink
Shane P. Hallam
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The fact is, he played DE in college, against fairly weak competition (not close to what he'll see in the NFL), and showed limited/inconsistent football-specific defensive lineman skills. Hands, leverage, balance, technique in general.
Whether he succeeds or not, I am with Matt in saying I saw this exact same argument word for word against JPP (heck, I made it against JPP,) and I was wrong. Could be the same way with Poe, could not.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
Poe haters are missing the point. nose tackles don't produce stats... at any level. look at Haloti Ngata's stats the guy gets 3 sacks a year maybe. the role is to occupy, table set and let the LB free to make plays. He's a borderline top 10 selection and he deserves it. where does he fit in a defense? like the 400 pound gorilla he goes wherever he wants. 0 tech, 1 tech, 3 tech, 5 tech. He can get reps at a variety of positions.
The issue with Poe is though he doesn't play with consistent enough leverage to just be a guy who occupies while the LBs are free. I don't put it all down to him. After watching a few tapes I can honestly say the coaches at Memphis shouldn't be allowed to coach. This guy should have been plugged in the middle of the defense to do as you said. However I counted numerous times watching him play where he ran the arc as a pass rusher. I don't care how fast the guy is he is 350lbs and should be in the middle blowing things up, not running outside around OTs.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam View Post
Whether he succeeds or not, I am with Matt in saying I saw this exact same argument word for word against JPP (heck, I made it against JPP,) and I was wrong. Could be the same way with Poe, could not.
A similar argument could have been made - no doubt.

And JPP is an UNBELIEVABLE story when you think about it.

Two differences:

1) JPP didn't have a physical limitation like Poe's short arms. Arm length is very important for defensive lineman. JPP had a crazy wingspan. For all the combine hype Poe got, I fear that the revealing of his short arms may actually end up as the most telling (it does help me understand partially why his film isn't as impressive against weaker comp. as his H/W/S/S #s would suggest.

2) The position difference. JPP is STILL learning how to play with leverage in the run game. Poe played a lot of spread offenses and was out of position. He lacks a true position because of it. Maybe he'll find one, but I just don't know what it is. JPP, even when he was raw just playing 'chase the QB' at USF, was ALWAYS a 4-3 RE through-and-through. Poe's transition to the NFL will be more difficult.

So while I do agree that a SIMILAR argument could have been made against JPP years ago, I think this one is in fact, different. And I personally thought JPP would be great - although part of that was the team he was drafted to. My thing with Poe isn't "HE SUCKS HES GONNA BUST!" I just think there are too many unknowns and question marks to draft him over guys who have developed football-specific position skills and dominated at the college level.

Poe's career will be defined by:

A) his effort/ability to learn how to play NT/DE/UT/3/5 (one of those, all of those - I don't know) in terms of technique, leverage, and balance.

B) his effort in terms of maintaining his weight and trying to be more physical at the POA.

C) the effectiveness of his coaches/positional coaches/veteran leaders to help him accomplish A and B.

He's risky, but oozing with potential. In the early-to-mid first-round, I would rather take a guy with better film. Later in the draft, I'd love a guy like Poe to mold (Jimmy Graham comes to mind).
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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The issue with Poe is though he doesn't play with consistent enough leverage to just be a guy who occupies while the LBs are free. I don't put it all down to him. After watching a few tapes I can honestly say the coaches at Memphis shouldn't be allowed to coach. This guy should have been plugged in the middle of the defense to do as you said. However I counted numerous times watching him play where he ran the arc as a pass rusher. I don't care how fast the guy is he is 350lbs and should be in the middle blowing things up, not running outside around OTs.
You have to keep in mind that Memphis was among the least talented teams in FBS football last year, and the "guy plugs up the middle allowing others to make plays" concept only works when there are people capable of making plays other than the guy who plugs up the middle.

I think Poe was the only guy who was capable of getting pressure from anywhere, so they put him in the place where he can get the most pressure.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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You have to keep in mind that Memphis was among the least talented teams in FBS football last year, and the "guy plugs up the middle allowing others to make plays" concept only works when there are people capable of making plays other than the guy who plugs up the middle.

I think Poe was the only guy who was capable of getting pressure from anywhere, so they put him in the place where he can get the most pressure.
From one point of view I understand that but surely you should have your best player doing what he does best. By lining him out wide at times you completely took away his effectiveness.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Please tell me we're not comparing Dontari Poe, who wasn't even voted to the first team of a low-level conference by the C-USA coaches, to Cam Newton, who won the Heisman Trophy and the National Championship after accounting for 50 touchdowns in the most competitive conference in the NCAA.
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