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Old 03-06-2012, 02:20 PM    (permalink
Cigaro
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Went to look him up on YT. Around 1:30, he gets effectively checked by a running back. Perhaps I'm too critical, but I don't feel like wasting my time watching more;

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Old 03-06-2012, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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^^^^ I watched the same video a day or two ago before heading to this thread to say he doesn't look like he's got what it takes to play in the NFL. And like you, I only needed to watch a few minutes against Arkansas State. He just isn't a good football player. Ngata would've bowled that running back right over.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Poe's career will be defined by:

A) his effort/ability to learn how to play NT/DE/UT/3/5 (one of those, all of those - I don't know) .
the fact that he could project to any or all of those spots makes him truly unique. being rare and having upside that's what top 20 picks should be. there are alot of great football players in the draft but there aren't any other Poe's.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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the fact that he could project to any or all of those spots makes him truly unique. being rare and having upside that's what top 20 picks should be. there are alot of great football players in the draft but there aren't any other Poe's.
I strongly disagree with this but to each his own. I don't care about rare athletes. I care about football players. There are plenty of rare athletes that aren't good at football. In terms of upside, I like guys who have shown that upside in terms of football-specific skills that maybe need a little refinement at the college level, at least in flashes. I guess you could argue Poe has shown some flashes, but I haven't seen much (albiet from just a small amount of scouting him).

Also, I think versatility is extremely overrated. I'd much rather have a guy who plays one position very well than a guy who knows how to play multiple positions but hasn't perfected his craft in any one spot. Many spread offenses now have their receivers play just one spot and learn the ins and outs of it so that they can make sight adjustments and read coverages at a very high level, rather than lining up inside and out and having to know and develop instincts for multiple positions.

I only value versatility in offensive lineman, and only usually for guys that project as backup depth players (6th and 7th men). To me, if you are going to draft a guy to do a job, he should #1 be as good as he can be at that job. Versatility is a nice added bonus, I guess, but it shouldn't be the primary positive attribute of a high-end prospect.

But like I said - to each his own. This is just my opinion.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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the fact that he could project to any or all of those spots makes him truly unique. being rare and having upside that's what top 20 picks should be. there are alot of great football players in the draft but there aren't any other Poe's.
The key word is "could"; I'd have a hard time drafting someone without knowing exactly what role they were going to perform.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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If someone wants to draft this guy in the 1st round and HOPE that they can make him want to play hard or suddenly develop football instincts than by all means... go right ahead.

He's a guy with physical tools, who isn't a very good player.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Its all about finding a balance between athletic potential and how good of a player a prospect is on the field. Poe with good coaching could become one of the best DL in the league because of his tremendous physical gifts. However his actually game time play is underwhelming to say the least. If you have a good DL coach who could work with him then he would be a great pick; but if you think that he is going to be good right away, you are mistaken. He needs work as a football player.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't think "he's not a good football player right now" means you don't draft a guy with tremendous gifts. He's just a guy who, with good coaching, is going to become a much better player than he was in college. We've already seen this happen with notable recent prospects like Clay Matthews and Jason Pierre-Paul.

Poe is absolutely not going to be a big time contributor in his first year, and he's going to require a lot of good coaching, but you draft him for the player he can be not the player he is. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't, but there are no picks in the NFL draft that are a sure thing. Plus, there are a lot of "planet theory" believers in the NFL and most coaches believe they can "coach a guy up."

Poe is definitely not as good as Ngata was coming out of Oregon, but knowing what we know now, if you redrafted 2006 I would take Ngata #1 overall without hesitation. So that's not entirely a fair comparison.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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I don't think "he's not a good football player right now" means you don't draft a guy with tremendous gifts. He's just a guy who, with good coaching, is going to become a much better player than he was in college. We've already seen this happen with notable recent prospects like Clay Matthews and Jason Pierre-Paul.
Pierre-Paul took the winding route, but he was an All-American every year. As a freshman at (Cal) College of the Canyons, he had 49 tackles, 19 for a loss, 14 of those sacks. The next year at (Kan) Fort Scott Community College he had 70 tackles and 10.5 sacks, again being named an All-American at the level he played. Then he goes to the Big East, and in his one year of D-I play he plays in all 13 games, starts 7, records 45 tackles, 16.5 tackles for a loss and 6.5 sacks en route to again being named All-American by Pro Football Weekly and to the Big East All-Conference team. Then he blew up the combine, got drafted as a project despite averaging 10 sacks a year over his college career (granted, the level of competition was low) and in his second year is playing at an All-Pro level. The "project" tag was because he had limited experience against top competition, not because he wasn't productive.

Clay Matthews III walked on to USC's team as a 165 lb (wasn't it?) freshman linebacker. He redshirted and was a backup for three years while he grew, but during that period of time was named USC's special teams player of the year twice, then earning it again during his year as a starter. Unlike Poe, the only member of his team, much less his position, considered a serious NFL talent, Matthews played the same position as multiple other NFL prospects, several of whom were early-round picks. Even his senior year he was playing alongside three other NFL prospects. So the Matthews example makes even less sense as an analogy, I think, than the Pierre-Paul one - Matthews was an undersized LB that fought his way into a star lineup, where Poe is a huge, athletically gifted player that hasn't made much of an impact despite being far and away the most physically gifted player on his team.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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Please tell me we're not comparing Dontari Poe, who wasn't even voted to the first team of a low-level conference by the C-USA coaches, to Cam Newton, who won the Heisman Trophy and the National Championship after accounting for 50 touchdowns in the most competitive conference in the NCAA.

This is what jumped out to me about Maryland OT Bruce Campbell a couple of years ago. He wasn't even considered the best offensive tackle by rival coaches in the ACC, which suggested his elite physical tools didn't translate into a dominant football player.

JPP despite starting barely half the season at South Florida in 2009, really flashed on game film, at times looking like the biggest and fastest player on the field. His backside pursuit was maniacal, his agility and athleticism were off the charts, and he just looked like in limited snaps a guy who was an innate pass rusher.

JPP was All Big East after seven starts and made previously hyped linemate George Selvie look small time.

Before the draft I was whining that no way JPP was a top 10 talent despite his raw ability. I was completely wrong.

Poe IMO has more in common with Bruce Campbell than JPP.

Playing in the ACC and Big East is still a couple steps up in competition compared to the C-USA.

Actually, Poe's on the field disposition seems more suited for the Oline. I wonder if Memphis coaches ever considered putting him at G/T??
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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I don't think "he's not a good football player right now" means you don't draft a guy with tremendous gifts. He's just a guy who, with good coaching, is going to become a much better player than he was in college. We've already seen this happen with notable recent prospects like Clay Matthews and Jason Pierre-Paul.

Poe is absolutely not going to be a big time contributor in his first year, and he's going to require a lot of good coaching, but you draft him for the player he can be not the player he is. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't, but there are no picks in the NFL draft that are a sure thing. Plus, there are a lot of "planet theory" believers in the NFL and most coaches believe they can "coach a guy up."

Poe is definitely not as good as Ngata was coming out of Oregon, but knowing what we know now, if you redrafted 2006 I would take Ngata #1 overall without hesitation. So that's not entirely a fair comparison.
Memphis has coaches who get paid pretty well to develop football players. So why didn't Poe use his superior physical skills? Do the coaches not know what they are doing? Or is it that Poe just doesn't have the instincts or desire to dominate?
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Memphis has coaches who get paid pretty well to develop football players. So why didn't Poe use his superior physical skills? Do the coaches not know what they are doing? Or is it that Poe just doesn't have the instincts or desire to dominate?
Even if the Memphis coaches are good, they don't compare to the quality of NFL and top college coaches. Better coaching will get more out of him.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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This is what jumped out to me about Maryland OT Bruce Campbell a couple of years ago. He wasn't even considered the best offensive tackle by rival coaches in the ACC, which suggested his elite physical tools didn't translate into a dominant football player.

JPP despite starting barely half the season at South Florida in 2009, really flashed on game film, at times looking like the biggest and fastest player on the field. His backside pursuit was maniacal, his agility and athleticism were off the charts, and he just looked like in limited snaps a guy who was an innate pass rusher.

JPP was All Big East after seven starts and made previously hyped linemate George Selvie look small time.

Before the draft I was whining that no way JPP was a top 10 talent despite his raw ability. I was completely wrong.

Poe IMO has more in common with Bruce Campbell than JPP.

Playing in the ACC and Big East is still a couple steps up in competition compared to the C-USA.

Actually, Poe's on the field disposition seems more suited for the Oline. I wonder if Memphis coaches ever considered putting him at G/T??
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Even if the Memphis coaches are good, they don't compare to the quality of NFL and top college coaches. Better coaching will get more out of him.
My point is, his physical ability is so much better than the guys he was facing, he shouldn't need elite NFL coaching to produce. It's not like the staff at Memphis doesn't know football. And just watching him on film, he plays soft. That's not a coaching thing, that's a personality thing..
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Even if the Memphis coaches are good, they don't compare to the quality of NFL and top college coaches. Better coaching will get more out of him.
If there is something to get out of him at all. Just because he has better coaches does not mean he will improve to any degree; there's nothing guaranteeing that Poe is a legitimate football player.

Before really looking into him I would have been happy if the Panthers drafted him, because of his potential to absorb blockers. But after watching a 6'5, 350 lb defensive tackle get completely stalwarted by a running back at a barely FBS school with no other lineman assisting the RB, there's no way I can take Poe seriously as a prospect.

To me, Poe is nothing more than a 6'5, 350 pound man who can run fast and lift well, who somehow stumbled onto a football field and was told to play. I see nothing in him that resembles an actual football player, and not just a physical specimen, in him at all. Maybe someone can indeed teach him how to play, but if he hasn't learned to any degree yet, I have little hope of that.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Every prospect has to learn something going from NCAA to NFL. Poe is not the only prospect who needs to be coached up. Let's not sit here and pretend there are perfect prospects out there ready from day 1. Every player needs to adjust and every player needs coaching. Poe might need a little more than most. But that's what pro coaches will do. Coach him up.

Look at the defenders, every single one of em has weaknesses. We are dwelling on Poe's cause his stock rose so high. But Coples has a bad motor. Claiborne lacks elite speed. Upshaw/Ingram are tweeners. Dre is a weed head. Barron has a double hernia. Cox is undersized.

It's not like Poe is the only imperfect defender.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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If Poe played at Ohio State, LSU or Georgia with the same level of non-production,(personally I doubt he'd be a starter at those schools), I don't think we'd be hearing all this first round talk for Poe.

As a football fan I would love to be wrong about Poe, but I just don't see it with him.
Maybe he's a guy who plays to the level of his competition
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
If Poe played at Ohio State, LSU or Georgia with the same level of non-production,(personally I doubt he'd be a starter at those schools)

he was offered scholarships to much better schools than Memphis. he stayed local. It was a real recruiting get for them.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Claiborne isn't getting faster. Upshaw and Ingram aren't going to grow 4 inches and become a perfect DE/OLB prospect.

You can't really fix those flaws. Poe's flaws of not having the proper technique or whatever, that can be fixed.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Claiborne isn't getting faster. Upshaw and Ingram aren't going to grow 4 inches and become a perfect DE/OLB prospect.

You can't really fix those flaws. Poe's flaws of not having the proper technique or whatever, that can be fixed.
I like bitonti's passionate defense of Poe.

I have no idea how he'll pan out, but I'm definitely on the side of caution.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Mind = Blown.
That makes perfect sense. What is the problem.

J
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Claiborne isn't getting faster. Upshaw and Ingram aren't going to grow 4 inches and become a perfect DE/OLB prospect.

You can't really fix those flaws. Poe's flaws of not having the proper technique or whatever, that can be fixed.
For sure Poe's issues can be fixed whereas Ingram or Upshaw won't get any taller. However, despite their perceived physical limitations both the DE/OLB guys you mentioned thrived in the SEC, as did Morris Claiborne. And despite Poe's almost unbelievable physical superiority over pretty much anyone he has ever faced he hasn't consistently shown during games in Conference USA the ability to be this unstoppable force in the NFL.

I don't want to come off like I'm bashing Poe but he doesn't have top 10 game film. He hasn't come close to showing he has top 10 ability. What he has is once in a generation physical tools. If you're ok with drafting him on those measureables then best of luck to you, all I know is I would pass in the top 10 and would probably only feel the risk worth in the second half of the first round.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Every prospect has to learn something going from NCAA to NFL. Poe is not the only prospect who needs to be coached up. Let's not sit here and pretend there are perfect prospects out there ready from day 1. Every player needs to adjust and every player needs coaching. Poe might need a little more than most. But that's what pro coaches will do. Coach him up.

Look at the defenders, every single one of em has weaknesses. We are dwelling on Poe's cause his stock rose so high. But Coples has a bad motor. Claiborne lacks elite speed. Upshaw/Ingram are tweeners. Dre is a weed head. Barron has a double hernia. Cox is undersized.

It's not like Poe is the only imperfect defender.
Every prospect has weaknesses, true. But they usually always have strengths as well. At the combine, Poe has unreal strengths. On the field, I've yet to see a single strength from him.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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I don't want to come off like I'm bashing Poe but he doesn't have top 10 game film. He hasn't come close to showing he has top 10 ability. What he has is once in a generation physical tools.
we can say the same thing about Ryan Tannehill, with the exception of not having once in a generation tools. The draft isn't really about what's fair or who's the better football player. it's about need matching upside. a team needs a QB they will reach. a team needs an interior DT they will reach. It happens every year.

several years ago, I actually was very much against drafting JPP high based on backflips and 6 career sacks. Live and learn. rare once in a generation physical tools absolutely matter. And it's deserved. the draft is beholden to laws of supply and demand, and guys with Poe's skills are in high demand ( and extremely low supply).

I also think this player is being underrated when people say he hasn't done anything of value on the football field. He's got 4 FF. he's got 5 sacks. Its not amazing production but it is _Some_ production.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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That makes perfect sense. What is the problem.

J
I had never thought about it and it does indeed make perfect sense. That's why my mind was blown because it's a good idea.
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