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Old 02-28-2012, 08:41 AM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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Wait, WHAT? The Walking Dead has NO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. The only character who has changed AT ALL is Shane. Other than that they're all the same stupid characters they were when the outbreak hit. They are no different.

And there is only so much sitting around and talking you can do. Not only are the conversations RIDICULOUS on a regular basis (Lori actually ARGUES that the women should "stay home and do laundry while the men go out and hunt".. setting the feminist movement back one hundred years there Lori!) but these people are just flat out STUPID. If there was a real zombie outbreak these morons would be the first to go. Day one. Hour one. They'd probably run into a group of zombies and get eaten the first possible second. ffs, Lori can't even drive down the highway without crashing her car when she is the ONLY CAR ON THE ROAD IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA.

This show has awful character development (or none), bad writing and stupid characters. I want to see blood, guts, brains, and death too, because I am actively rooting for all of them except Glenn and Shane to die horrible deaths. The rest are cartoon characters at best.

ps, before you call someone else an idiot go back and rewatch the episode. Rick cut his finger and did wipe it all over the fence.

pps That review was meant more for comedy, but I've read a lot of reviews of episodes by people who know what they're talking about and they are usually no better.
Shane has changed. Andrea has changed, Glen has changed, Daryl has changed. The characters aren't all static. And yes, Lori is an idiot. Getting into a car accident was moronic. But he is kind of right about Andrea. Women don't have to just stay in the kitchen all day. But Rick and Shane are trained cops. Daryl is a badass who apparently has some tracking ability. They don't need Andrea to sit on the RV all day looking for Walkers. She could be much more use to the group doing other things.

As for Rick cutting his finger, I don't think he rubbed his finger on the fence. I know Shane rubbed his finger on the bus, but I don't remember Rick doing it. I'll go back and watch it later to see.

One thing I noticed is the writers have listened to critics. Season one was almost universally acclaimed but many said that the first half of season two was way too slow. So what happens? The midseason break happens and then they come back with more actions, more zombies, more killings. It looks like they are close to striking a balance between the way too slow second and third episodes and constant zombies zombies zombies that some would want but would get monotonous.
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Yes Shane has changed, and I guess I'll give you Andrea even though she is just as whiny and annoying as ever, but Glenn and Daryl are the same guys that they were in the beginning of the show.
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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Andrea still sucks, my mind is blown that they still let that ***** keep look out or touch a gun after shooting darryl in the face.
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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The show needs so much more Darryl
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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The show needs so much more Darryl
Darryl and Merle spin-off.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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I think the confusion is you think that the majority dictates what is good or not. Just because a show is watched by a lot of people or given good reviews by TV critics does not mean it's a good show.
No, that means you don't think it's a good show. The majority speak otherwise. How are we able to find out if a show or a movie has a consensus opinion on whether it's good or bad? The Dark Knight for example. How do we find out if the majority of people enjoy the film? The money it makes? The amount of viewership? The mostly good reviews? Because the Walking Dead and TBBT make a lot of money, have a lot of viewings, and have good reviews by the majority.

Remember, there are no facts here. All of this is subjective and a matter of taste. But to state "oh it's not a good show" as if it were fact, when the majority of people believe otherwise is kind of stupid.

Bottom line: there is a consensus opinion the The Walking Dead and TBBT are two of the most genuinely entertaining shows on television, and that they are deemed to be good programs within their genre.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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And again, a majority opinion (or consensus) does not make it so.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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And again, a majority opinion (or consensus) does not make it so.
And again, there are no facts in a debate like this. Just like there are no facts in what kind of art is good. The closest we could get is a majority consensus opinion on what is thought to be good/enjoyed.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Shane has changed. Andrea has changed, Glen has changed, Daryl has changed. The characters aren't all static. And yes, Lori is an idiot. Getting into a car accident was moronic. But he is kind of right about Andrea. Women don't have to just stay in the kitchen all day. But Rick and Shane are trained cops. Daryl is a badass who apparently has some tracking ability. They don't need Andrea to sit on the RV all day looking for Walkers. She could be much more use to the group doing other things.

As for Rick cutting his finger, I don't think he rubbed his finger on the fence. I know Shane rubbed his finger on the bus, but I don't remember Rick doing it. I'll go back and watch it later to see.

One thing I noticed is the writers have listened to critics. Season one was almost universally acclaimed but many said that the first half of season two was way too slow. So what happens? The midseason break happens and then they come back with more actions, more zombies, more killings. It looks like they are close to striking a balance between the way too slow second and third episodes and constant zombies zombies zombies that some would want but would get monotonous.
Herschel is also starting to change as well.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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And again, there are no facts in a debate like this. Just like there are no facts in what kind of art is good. The closest we could get is a majority consensus opinion on what is thought to be good/enjoyed.
You're just arguing a point that cannot be proven.

You're 100% accurate that ratings etc, track viewership. Therefore, you can say "Alot of people watch this show."

From that you have to use creative license to say "Alot of people enjoy watching this show."

You then take it another step by saying "Alot of people enjoy watching this show because they like it."

And another step to "Alot of people like this show, so it must be good."

And finally, "the show is good."


That's four infered steps to make an objective conclusion on subjective material.

That's the main problem, we're trained to quantify, and make statistical rationalizations, and objective analysis of subjective artistry.

The world is full of gray area. Enjoy living in it.


What do you, Ness, as a viewer, get out of knowing what the general consensus believes is the quality of a show? If you enjoy it, watch it. Don't worry about it's rating, or if someone else hates it and says it's bad, even if the "consensus" disagrees.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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You're just arguing a point that cannot be proven.
And that is what has been going on this entire time from various posters. Except I am realizing that there are no facts in this debate and the closest we can get to objectivity is the majority opinions of a subjective thing. And I'm not using that as a guideline for whether a person should like the show, but however I'm using it as a basis for a conclusion that a lot of people enjoy a certain show and/or believe it's entertaining and well thought out depending on it's genre.

I'm not the one here saying "OMG this show sucks I'm not going to argue with you about it because it's sooooooooooooo obvious" regardless of how much evidence there is to the contrary. That's just trolling right there. If a person doesn't like a show, that's fine. But don't spout it as gospel that a show is factually bad (which doesn't make sense) and ignore all of the contradictory evidence that suggests that that definitely isn't the case in terms of popular opinion. And no, I'm not saying you yourself did this phlysac.

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What do you, Ness, as a viewer, get out of knowing what the general consensus believes is the quality of a show? If you enjoy it, watch it. Don't worry about it's rating, or if someone else hates it and says it's bad, even if the "consensus" disagrees.
I get the notion that viewing something I have not seen before or may not have had a previous interest in (depending on genre or something else) may be actually worth checking out.

I was never worried about consensus opinion or telling people here that consensus opinion should dictate your choices in subjective entertainment. That's stupid. This all started by arguing with someone else about The Walking Dead and then bringing up The Big Bang theory and essentially taking the stance that both shows are factually terrible even though all of the evidence proves otherwise from the majority of viewers. I was just exploiting the hole in that poster's theory.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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The majority of people in Germany during the third reich's reign joined and assisted killing millions of people. Hence since so many people did it, it obviously was a good thing right?

Also, I brought up the big bang theory and I'm sorry but it caters to people who are just simpletons. It has a fake laugh track to inform people when to laugh (not that its the only show) and the jokes all revolve around one of the easiest things to make fun of, which in this case is nerds. If people want simple popcorn television and thats what they enjoy thats one thing. However calling it good television is another. Sure this is all subjective, as someone else said, welcome to the world of subjectivity. I would like to hear the reasons why YOU think the show is good, and how YOU would defend most of the plot holes, character/scenario inconsistencies, terrible writing etc.... I could give a **** less why other people watch it if you are the one trying to argue its a good show. How about YOU tell me why I should be persuaded to ignore all the things mentioned in this thread so I can enjoy the show. Because Im sorry I didnt start watching this show to be nit picky, however its rather terribleness sticks its ugly head out almost every other scene.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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The majority of people in Germany during the third reich's reign joined and assisted killing millions of people. Hence since so many people did it, it obviously was a good thing right?
Right, because killing people and watching a television show are the exact same thing. Yeah, the lines aren't blurred in terms of subjectivity or moral decision making at all. Nah. What a God-awful analogy.

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Also, I brought up the big bang theory and I'm sorry but it caters to people who are just simpletons. It has a fake laugh track to inform people when to laugh (not that its the only show) and the jokes all revolve around one of the easiest things to make fun of, which in this case is nerds. If people want simple popcorn television and thats what they enjoy thats one thing. However calling it good television is another. Sure this is all subjective, as someone else said, welcome to the world of subjectivity. I would like to hear the reasons why YOU think the show is good, and how YOU would defend most of the plot holes, character/scenario inconsistencies, terrible writing etc.... I could give a **** less why other people watch it if you are the one trying to argue its a good show. How about YOU tell me why I should be persuaded to ignore all the things mentioned in this thread so I can enjoy the show. Because Im sorry I didnt start watching this show to be nit picky, however its rather terribleness sticks its ugly head out almost every other scene.
Why the hell would I try to change your mind about something you've already made a decisive decision about? Liking certain kinds of entertainment is a matter of taste. You obviously don't like the show and don't think it's a good show. The same certainly can't be said for a lot of other people.
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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Also, I brought up the big bang theory and I'm sorry but it caters to people who are just simpletons. It has a fake laugh track to inform people when to laugh (not that its the only show) and the jokes all revolve around one of the easiest things to make fun of, which in this case is nerds. If people want simple popcorn television and thats what they enjoy thats one thing. However calling it good television is another.
I couldn't have said this better.. I could try, but I would not be successful.

At the end of the day there is a massive disconnect (or we just don't give a **** anymore) so why don't we change the subject?

How awful is Carl? What a useless character. Plus he can't act. We can all hold hands and agree to hate Carl, can't we?
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Right, because killing people and watching a television show are the exact same thing. Yeah, the lines aren't blurred in terms of subjectivity or moral decision making at all. Nah. What a God-awful analogy.


Why the hell would I try to change your mind about something you've already made a decisive decision about? Liking certain kinds of entertainment is a matter of taste. You obviously don't like the show and don't think it's a good show. The same certainly can't be said for a lot of other people.
I mean your whole argument is based upon the fact that something is good because alot of people watch it, to which I took it to the extreme example of how that certainly does not make something good, it doesn't and if it's a terrible analogy it was used against a terrible argument in the first place. The point still stands, I'm still laughing about it actually. Don't try to change your argument now, you came in here suggesting that the show was good because the ratings suggested that a large amount of people watch it. Hence it must be a good show. You made a terrible argument and if that was your only point youre just wrong.

And amen to hating Carl. When he started a ***** fest about his mom being prego when his dad was missing it was just ridiculous and his facial expression with his hands to his face was literally painful.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.

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Old 02-28-2012, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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I mean your whole argument is based upon the fact that something is good because alot of people watch it, to which I took it to the extreme example of how that certainly does not make something good, it doesn't and if it's a terrible analogy it was used against a terrible argument in the first place. The point still stands, I'm still laughing about it actually. Don't try to change your argument now, you came in here suggesting that the show was good because the ratings suggested that a large amount of people watch it. Hence it must be a good show. You made a terrible argument and if that was your only point youre just wrong.

And amen to hating Carl. When he started a ***** fest about his mom being prego when his dad was missing it was just ridiculous and his facial expression with his hands to his face was literally painful.
I agree with every point you've made. 100% of the way. You're all of the sudden becoming very attractive to me. I know this is out of left field but.. do you wanna do something sometime?
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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I agree with every point you've made. 100% of the way. You're all of the sudden becoming very attractive to me. I know this is out of left field but.. do you wanna do something sometime?
I mean I usually make too much popcorn on Sundays while watching, your welcome to come over and share while we watch this amazing show.
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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I mean I usually make too much popcorn on Sundays while watching, your welcome to come over and share while we watch this amazing show.
It's a date!

I actually do like this show but I'm not someone who will blindly defend something just because I like it. Chuck is probably my favorite show of all time and that had a plothole a week, but that's ok. It was still entertaining.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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Mrs Elvis and I just watched Sunday's episode. I just can't get over how terrible the writing is at every turn. I'm sorry if the ratings don't agree, but then again, maybe the ratings are loaded with saps like me that keep tuning in with hope that they'll turn this train wreck into something worth watching. It's just painfully frustrating to watch one asinine scenario after another unfold in order to create contact and/or tension.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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Mrs Elvis and I just watched Sunday's episode. I just can't get over how terrible the writing is at every turn. I'm sorry if the ratings don't agree, but then again, maybe the ratings are loaded with saps like me that keep tuning in with hope that they'll turn this train wreck into something worth watching. It's just painfully frustrating to watch one asinine scenario after another unfold in order to create contact and/or tension.
I thought the most recent episode was one of the best of the season. I had no issue with the writing at all. Most of the critics whose reviews I've read also had similar views, some even going as far to say that it was one of the best since the pilot.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:30 AM    (permalink
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They need to focus on zombies and forget about all the cabin fever going on, at least for a little while.

Make the zombies deadlier, they don't kill or bite anyone anymore. They seem more like an inconvenience than a deadly horde of relentless, murderous creatures.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:54 AM    (permalink
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They need to focus on zombies and forget about all the cabin fever going on, at least for a little while.

Make the zombies deadlier, they don't kill or bite anyone anymore. They seem more like an inconvenience than a deadly horde of relentless, murderous creatures.
Did you see the episode before last? The guy named Sean had arguably the worst death yet. It was gruesome.
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:02 AM    (permalink
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I'm just waiting for them to kill T-Dog or whatever the black guys name is. He is involved in zero storylines and it just seems so obvious that he is going to die soon. Although they could be messing with me and have him turn into some super crazy zombie killer that never dies.

Also if you hate the farm, you are going to hate the location they go to next - assuming they follow the comics, because they stay there a lot longer.
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:02 AM    (permalink
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I mean your whole argument is based upon the fact that something is good because alot of people watch it, to which I took it to the extreme example of how that certainly does not make something good, it doesn't and if it's a terrible analogy it was used against a terrible argument in the first place. The point still stands, I'm still laughing about it actually. Don't try to change your argument now, you came in here suggesting that the show was good because the ratings suggested that a large amount of people watch it. Hence it must be a good show. You made a terrible argument and if that was your only point youre just wrong.

And amen to hating Carl. When he started a ***** fest about his mom being prego when his dad was missing it was just ridiculous and his facial expression with his hands to his face was literally painful.
Except I'm not the one trying to make an objective argument based off something that is subjective in nature. I don't think it's a stretch to say that a show is considered good by the majority that witness it in it's domestic origin based on higher number of viewership and the majority of reviews being positive. This leads to a consensus opinion, not fact. Which I wouldn't try to prove anyways based on what I said in my first sentence. I feel like I've had to explain this five straight times.

Your attempt at an analogy was terrible because it had to do with completely different circumstances. The subject being talked about had to do with people being entertained by a television program, not making hard moral and ethic decisions. That is why it sucked, because the variables are so far towards the other end of the spectrum.

I'm not changing my argument, which was always based on opinion, not fact. The tune is still the same. The hilarious thing is that you still fail to comprehend the point I've tried to make. Other posters like phlysac have at least understood the perspective I was coming from, even if he didn't agree. This isn't Argumentum ad populum, which you are trying to accuse me if implementing, when again, my approach has to do with taste and opinion, not objectivity, logic, or fact because measuring something subjective in those regards wouldn't make sense in the first place. Never once did I say The Walking Dead/The Big Bang Theory is viewed by a lot of people and has highly rated reviews therefore it must be good. I did however say this as my opening statement about The Big Bang Theory and then The Walking Dead following:

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As for The Big Bang Theory, how is that one of the worst shows on television? What is your basis for that conclusion? A lot of people believe it's a good show. Maybe not the best on television (way to set the bar low), but it's rated pretty highly from fans and critics alike.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898266/

http://www.imdb.com/search/title?sor...type=tv_series
I don't see how that is the same as your statement here I'm quoting:

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I mean your whole argument is based upon the fact that something is good because alot of people watch it
This tells me you have completely misunderstood what I've said this entire time. My argument was never based on facts regarding something subjective. Not to mention it wasn't just about the number of views that a show received. I already gave you an example of how that alone doesn't work (The Jersey Shore). The Walking Dead and The Big Bang Theory both have high viewings and and good reviews based on the majority of people that have taken the time to review the program. The same can't be said about a show like The Jersey Shore, which has high viewings, but the reviews are terrible.

And you never answered my question as to what your basis was for your conclusion that it was considered a bad show by the majority of people that have watched it, or reviewed it.

It doesn't matter though. A lot of people enjoy both shows. Both are highly watched and the majority for both shows has been positive. No for the 100th time this does not equate to me saying that the show is factually good. It does mean that the majority of folks that have watched the show and reviewed it have found it entertaining and well produced overall. If you don't like the show, that's fine of course. But let's keep in mind that stance doesn't support the majority that have watched and reviewed the show themselves.
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:34 AM    (permalink
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You are correct, I am having trouble understanding what it is you are or are not saying at this point, I have been since we started this stupid argument but lets go over it. So lets see where we are. The show has a high rating, meaning alot of people are tuning in, which you then state that people who watch it must be enjoying it. Sure for arguments sake lets go along with that despite the majority of people in this thread stating they think the show isn't anything spectacular yet tune in on a weekly basis, I'll just let you have it. Then you say that despite the consensus being that the show is good among the people watching, that does not make it an objective truth. Ok are we on the same page still? I think so, I think I may be getting the picture here. So let me ask politely what the **** you are arguing about since I have already made this point to begin with

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If people want simple popcorn television and thats what they enjoy thats one thing. However calling it good television is another.
Your original point was that if it really had so many plot holes and inconsistencies than it wouldnt be on the air.....yet here we are. So yes I am confused. I am confused just exactly what you are trying to ******* say here because after all is said and done, you brought up a point of saying how there is a consensus that the show is good only to refute it and say we shouldn't objectively base truth on the consensus, which was MY ******* POINT TO BEGIN WITH ALL ALONG. So I am sorry for being rude when someone says that I am the one not understanding. The consensus is that the show is good, great for ***** sake I don't care. Even with my "terrible" analogy I stated that the consensus does not make that true (to point out, art and ethics are both subjective in nature so I fail to see why just because they aren't in the same category that the relation they both have to subjectivity and general acceptance are not valid) . I have listed almost the weaknesses, plot holes, horrid writing, inconsistent character arcs way more than I'm sure people have cared to read in this thread. Enough people like it, good, great awesome. As you have said, doesnt make it a good show, which I have already stated. So for the love of god explain to me why I shouldn't be confused? What are you even trying to say at this point? Because so help me god if we are still on the subject of enough people like it so it stays on the air I will murder a kitten, especially if you try to tell me I don't understand the points you made after I was the one to make them.
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