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Old 11-09-2011, 12:59 PM    (permalink
JoeJoeBrown
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Beginning to wonder if perhaps Joe's the one who led the case against JoePa his ability to use evidence to condemn someone is appalling.
You managed to mangle just about every point, starting with the first one. Congrats on being completely delusional.

In your mind, JoePa is innocent. Got it. You are entitled to your opinion.

Most outside of the cult of personality sees it very differently.

Your struggling to protect JoePa got me to thinking so I did a forum search.

Pretty funny righteousness in retrospect:

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Jim Tressel resigns
Views: 4,923
Posted By Trogdor

Ready to see if the NCAA pummels OSU as hard (should be harder) as what they did to USC. Good riddance to Tressel he's reaping the benefits of the program atmosphere he created.
Forum: College Football 03-09-2011, 01:48 PM
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Tressel knew of memorabilia sales
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Posted By Trogdor

This is by definition a failure of institutional controls. Add lying to NCAA investigators and recruits receiving improper benefits ($ for equipment is improper) to the list. So please explain to me why the punishment for this 'incident' should be nothing more to Tressel than being suspended for games against "Little Sisters of the Poor"?

If the NCAA doesn't act with the type of heavy-handed approach they have in the recent past with the same type of deal (USC, Dez Bryant, etc) then how can anyone claim that they follow any precedent? It should be less than USC (they self-reported and cooperated) however they lied to investigators and demonstrated that they lack the institutional controls required by the NCAA to regulate student athletes.

Not sure, aside from being stuck in the mindset of an OSU fan, how this can be twisted in any other fashion.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Yea, the way I read is that JoePa did what he was told, and they cleared Sandusky, so was he supposed to just string him up?

Maybe he knew more than we know he does, but that's speculation right now.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:05 PM    (permalink
JoeJoeBrown
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Yea, the way I read is that JoePa did what he was told, and they cleared Sandusky, so was he supposed to just string him up?

Maybe he knew more than we know he does, but that's speculation right now.
In 2002 yes, string him up.

In 1998, you have a point as what JoePa knew is speculation.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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I honestly don't get how anyone could support or even give JoePa the benefit of the doubt at this point. So much is known as fact and in testimony that it's pretty clear what happened.

How you can support someone just because you don't want to believe something is true is unreal. Innocent until proven guilty was not meant to serve as a blinder to the obvious. That only protects people from the state, not from judgement.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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I honestly don't get how anyone could support or even give JoePa the benefit of the doubt at this point. So much is known as fact and in testimony that it's pretty clear what happened.

How you can support someone just because you don't want to believe something is true is unreal. Innocent until proven guilty was not meant to serve as a blinder to the obvious. That only protects people from the state, not from judgement.
Confirmation Bias is a powerful thing.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I honestly don't get how anyone could support or even give JoePa the benefit of the doubt at this point. So much is known as fact and in testimony that it's pretty clear what happened.

How you can support someone just because you don't want to believe something is true is unreal. Innocent until proven guilty was not meant to serve as a blinder to the obvious. That only protects people from the state, not from judgement.
It's not easy to simply turn your opinion on a dime, especially for those who have strong ties. If you build some part of your value system based on a culture you can't just abandon it in a matter of days.

Which, honestly, is why those closest to this should be getting more support than ever right now.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I dunno, I have no stake in this fight, it just doesn't seem clear to me that Joe Pa knew that Sandusky was a ruthless predator, and he got second hand info twice, from people he probably didn't know nearly as well as he did Sandusky.

Like I said, I have no feelings for Joe Pa, I kinda like his kooky old guy attitude and all, but I have no reason to defend him.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:13 PM    (permalink
JoeJoeBrown
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It's not easy to simply turn your opinion on a dime, especially for those who have strong ties. If you build some part of your value system based on a culture you can't just abandon it in a matter of days.

Which, honestly, is why those closest to this should be getting more support than ever right now.
Agreed. Some of my PSU friends are absolutely baffled right now. I wouldn't say shocked, but strongly baffled, not knowing what to believe.

Like I said before, this is what happens when you put too much faith into one man. Humans make mistakes, despite their core character and integrity.

It royally sucks.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Agreed. Some of my PSU friends are absolutely baffled right now. I wouldn't say shocked, but strongly baffled, not knowing what to believe.

Like I said before, this is what happens when you put too much faith into one man. Humans make mistakes, despite their core character and integrity.

It royally sucks.
This is not, and should not be about one man. I completely agree with the sentiment that JoePa is unjustifiably prominent in the reports and discussions.

I'd also wager you're selling your PSU friends short if you think they're struggles are solely tied to JoePa.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I dunno, I have no stake in this fight, it just doesn't seem clear to me that Joe Pa knew that Sandusky was a ruthless predator, and he got second hand info twice, from people he probably didn't know nearly as well as he did Sandusky.

Like I said, I have no feelings for Joe Pa, I kinda like his kooky old guy attitude and all, but I have no reason to defend him.
Quote:
1998 – Victim 6 is taken into the locker rooms and showers when he is 11 years old. When Victim 6 is dropped off at home, his hair is wet from showering with Sandusky. His mother reports the incident to the university police, who investigate.

Detective Ronald Schreffler testifies that he and State College Police Department Detective Ralph Ralston, with the consent of the mother of Victim 6, eavesdrop on two conversations the mother of Victim 6 has with Sandusky. Sandusky says he has showered with other boys and Victim 6's mother tries to make Sandusky promise never to shower with a boy again but he will not. At the end of the second conversation, after Sandusky is told he cannot see Victim 6 anymore, Schreffler testifies Sandusky says, "I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won't get it from you. I wish I were dead."

Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.

The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge.

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March 1, 2002
A Penn State graduate assistant enters the locker room at the Lasch Football Building. In the showers, he sees a naked boy, known as Victim 2, whose age he estimates to be 10 years old, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant tells his father immediately.
Quote:
March 2, 2002
In the morning, the graduate assistant calls Coach Joe Paterno and goes to Paterno's home, where he reports what he has seen.
Quote:
March 3, 2002
Paterno calls Tim Curley, Penn State Athletic Director to his home the next day and reports a version of what the grad assistant had said.
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March 2002
Later in the month the graduate assistant is called to a meeting with Curley and Senior Vice President for Finance and Business Gary Schultz. The grad assistant reports what he has seen and Curley and Schultz say they will look into it.

March 27, 2002 (approximate)
The graduate assistant hears from Curley. He is told that Sandusky's locker room keys are taken away and that the incident has been reported to The Second Mile. The graduate assistant is never questioned by university police and no other entity conducts an investigation until the graduate assistant testifies in Grand Jury in December 2010

JoePa knew McQueary for while

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McQueary, easily identified on the Penn State sideline by his bright red hair, is a record setting former quarterback for the Nittany Lions. He led Penn State for two seasons, 1996 and 1997, and set several records that still stand.
He has known him for at least 5 years of course its not 40 years Sandusky.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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You managed to mangle just about every point, starting with the first one. Congrats on being completely delusional. The evidence mangles your points...and would the one whom is delusional be the one with siding with the body of evidence or the one grasping at straws and calling JoePa a mafia don?

In your mind, JoePa is innocent. Got it. You are entitled to your opinion.

Most outside of the cult of personality sees it very differently.

Your struggling to protect JoePa got me to thinking so I did a forum search.Burden of truth my friend. You are using hearsay to build a case. If you return to the real world and present ONLY what you can prove you'll find it's much harder ;)

Pretty funny righteousness in retrospect:
I'm satisfied that you have zero ability to use evidence to back up your point. The fact you need to dredge through my forum history to find ammo for your trolling means I am frustrating you. Back on subject how is it that it's "biased" for those who are using the evidence at hand to question your hearsay... but it's not biased for an OSU homer to bellow out hearsay in order to piss on a rival coach's career.

I still stand by those words. The body of EVIDENCE was insurmountable against Tressel in terms of non-compliance. Your HEARSAY is insurmountable in this thread. If a report comes out that says JoePa knew everything, had free reign to run the university, didn't contact the police (even though it is reported now that he has), provided cover and lied under oath (even though it is reported that he hasn't), OH and when it is announced that JoePa is actually the don of Penn State crime (as you stated previously) PERHAPS THEN I will acknowledge. Right now I'm looking at all the evidence presented and it's impossible to drive a different conclusion. If damning evidence on JoePa is presented I will eat crow.

Until then I EAGERLY await your evidence for your bitter, biased, troll-fest that is this thread. In the meantime I'm going to do something other than trolling through your post history in order to grasp at straws to make a point.

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Old 11-09-2011, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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I dunno, I have no stake in this fight, it just doesn't seem clear to me that Joe Pa knew that Sandusky was a ruthless predator, and he got second hand info twice, from people he probably didn't know nearly as well as he did Sandusky.

Like I said, I have no feelings for Joe Pa, I kinda like his kooky old guy attitude and all, but I have no reason to defend him.
I really hope something comes out that exonerates Joe and most of the people who clearly seem to have failed to do more to protect a whole lot of kids. It really would reflect better on everyone involved if somehow Spanier, Curley and Schultz were completely behind the coverup and they fleeced and entire region of people, coaches and investigators. But the path there requires a better tin-foil hat than I possess.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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McQueary recruiting letter to recruits IDK how old it is but I saw on a board.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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MAybe I'm just at the first stage of shock still, and I can't really focus on who to drop the hammer on other than Sandusky at this point.... I feel like a rapist needs to be burned, and we need to worry about that before we start blaming other people for what a monster did.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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McQueary recruiting letter to recruits IDK how old it is but I saw on a board.
Technically still true...this isn't a major NCAA investigation...smh
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Major, big time fail all across the board here for these victims. It belongs on the shoulders of an entire university administration. Not just the athletic department, and not just Joe Paterno.

Sandusky deserves to be tied to a bumper and dragged at 35mph down every street in State College, PA. I'll pitch in for gas money.

The rest deserve to be held accountable as individuals for failing to do the right thing.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge.

Ughh What? Showering and hugging a minor and naked and nothing is done. WTF why would you still keep him on your staff? This was in 1998.

Not even that how is there no charges? No jail time, it probably could have been prevented in 2002 if he was in jail. Justice system fail here.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bhaarat316 View Post
Why is it Joe Pa all day err day? Why is no one talking about the other 3? The two admins who knew and should have went to the police.

Yeah he didn't do enough, but he did go to his chain of command and let them know. If he wasn't the figure he is, than this would all be focused on the admins.
Is this a serious question? Because Paterno is famous.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Why would McCreary go to Paterno and lie about Sandusky? Child molestation is a huge accusation. McCreary is a grad assistant and a former QB for Penn State. He had absolutely no motive to lie.

Sure Paterno HEARD about the event from a REPUTABLE WITNESS with NO MOTIVE TO LIE. Look I can capitalize important words too!
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Trogdor, have you read the grand jury report or anything we've said in this forum, or are you jumping into the party late?
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Great men screw up ALL THE TIME. Read history. No one is infallible, no man is a deity.
JoePa over the decades had become a mythic figure in the sports mind of college football fans. The man was coaching before nearly all of us were even alive.

There's a reason why most corporations force people to retire once they hit their mid to late 60s. The gradual decline in cognitive functioning. Paterno's age IMO was a major factor in this case. If one of Paterno's former quarterbacks(!) told him that he saw Sandusky raping a kid in the showers when JoePa was 40, 50, hell even sixty years old, there never would have been a 2nd incident.
IMO players have a natural tendency to defer to their coaches in all respects, so if a former player like McQueary makes an explosive accusation against the the 2nd most powerful man in the program's history, it's no longer 'hearsay'.

Why is it that a HS coach has enough juice to get Sandusky investigated, but Paterno does not?? JoePa if so inclined could have gotten the names of the boys Sandusky STILL was bringing onto PSU's campus, gotten their telephone numbers and talked to them HIMSELF to find out what was going on. (Joe could do this in his sleep, it's essentially 'recruiting'.)

But IMO Paterno didn't want to know. It would be the equivalent of being told your father, son or BF was raping little boys. It hurts too much to think about.

The reason this scandal was never resolved a decade earlier is because people lost focus on who the victims were. It wasn't the university, the alumni, the football program, or JoePa.
The victims were the dozens of boys who were being DESTROYED by Sandusky.

Schultz and Curley are sleazebags no doubt, but they aren't Joe's 'superiors'.
If Paterno ever went to the BOT and said I want Schultz and Curley out, their careers would be in jeopardy.

Chain of command = plausible denial.

Once JoePa saw the investigation against Sandusky was stalled after the 2nd allegation, JoePa should have had one of his sons drive him to the local police precinct and conducted a one on one interview with one of the station's detectives.

McQueary bears some guilt, but he's a distant 4th behind the AD/University President/Paterno.
The latter three had the power and authority to follow through where McQueary fell short.

This case is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better, and IMO will be the college equivalent of the OJ trial once it goes to court. I fully expect a parade of young men to take the stand and go into GRAPHIC detail about what Sandusky did to them, and most people are going to ask themselves why didn't the LEGEND put on his cape and save these guys when they were young boys being sexually assaulted by his friend Sandusky??

I'm already hearing there have being strange rumors about Sandusky for years. JoePa essentially kicked Sandusky out of the program in '98/'99.
I'm dumbfounded why Paterno didn't make it his personal mission after the SECOND allegation to end this **** once and for all.

It's sad and ironic the man who instilled the ethic that HOW you won mattered, not just 'winning', had such a catastrophic ethical lapse in judgement.

Joe needs to go, and I really hate to say that.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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Sounds like the Federal Government is going to get involved now to see if there was any wrongdoing on the part of Penn State. It also sounds like they will have jurisdiction under something under the Clery Act. I hate to quote Wikipedia but I don't feel like digging for more. PSU is screwed.

Quote:
The Jeanne Clery Disclosure of Campus Security Policy and Campus Crime Statistics Act or Clery Act is a federal statute codified at 20 U.S.C. 1092(f), with implementing regulations in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations at 34 C.F.R. 668.46.
The Clery Act requires all colleges and universities that participate in federal financial aid programs to keep and disclose information about crime on and near their respective campuses. Compliance is monitored by the United States Department of Education, which can impose civil penalties, up to $27,500 per violation, against institutions for each infraction and can suspend institutions from participating in federal student financial aid programs.
The law is named for Jeanne Clery, a 19-year-old Lehigh University freshman who was raped and murdered by another student, Josoph Henry, in her campus residence hall in 1986. The Clery Act, signed in 1990, was originally known as the Crime Awareness and Campus Security Act.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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Check out the list of board members of the second mile. Some pretty powerful people on there. They have to be livid right now.

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Old 11-09-2011, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Lou Holtz was on ESPN this afternoon, and he said that he didn't even know he was on the Board of Directors for The Second Mile. Nobody ever asked him or informed him.

I really think that the entire organization was an elaborate ruse.

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Old 11-09-2011, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Check out the list of board members of the second mile. Some pretty powerful people on there. They have to be livid right now.

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Wow. A who's who of sports superstars. Didn't Sandusky start A 2nd Mile??
Hate to say it, but ALL of them are going to be held accountable for Sandusky's relationships with many of the boys in A 2nd Mile that Sandusky violated.

Who was in charge of the day to day operations of this charity organization??
Sandusky was basically using 2nd Mile like his own personal bordello.
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