Tebow and the triple option

[descendency]

Originally Posted by Philliez01

To be fair, all those turnovers in the second quarter kind of ruined his numbers.

Two of those three turnovers aren't even a good excuse. 1 was his (strip sack) and 1 was with 3 seconds to go in the half.

[Philliez01]

Originally Posted by descendency

Two of those three turnovers aren't even a good excuse. 1 was his (strip sack) and 1 was with 3 seconds to go in the half.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't those eat up a lot of time? Aka didn't the Patriots essentially crawl down the field? I was only watching on RedZone, so I have no idea the implications.

Not defending his play, he still looked awful and does that stupid turn thing when given minimal amounts of pressure. Actually not awful, he just didn't look good.

[Timbathia]

Originally Posted by Philliez01

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't those eat up a lot of time? Aka didn't the Patriots essentially crawl down the field? I was only watching on RedZone, so I have no idea the implications.

Not defending his play, he still looked awful and does that stupid turn thing when given minimal amounts of pressure. Actually not awful, he just didn't look good.

Broncos had about five plays in the second quarter. So Yes, the fumbles had huge implications, especially since the pats also had the first possesion in the third.

[Denver Bronco56]

The turn over by the running back and punt returner literally led to 10 points alone not to mention the time that was eaten... The pats capitalized on our dumb mistakes

[stephenson86]

Mistakes that Tebow is not good enough-a-quarterback to come back from.

[jth1331]

My freakin goodness people are flippin idiots sometimes.
Those 3 turnovers(1 of which was Tebow's fault on an idiotic option play though) led to 13 points and caused the Broncos to have no offense in the 2nd quarter. The defense couldn't stop the Pats, and they had the first possession in the 3rd quarter that ate up more time.
Then the 1st possession in the 3rd quarter, the Broncos start at their own 10 yard line.
Broncos drive stalled after a sack, which the Patriots got good pressure on Tebow all game.
Patriots then drive down for a TD, and Quan Cosby screws up again making the Broncos start at their own 5 yard line after the kickoff.
Not many freakin QB's will succeed in those scenarios.Then his end of game stats look worse than they are because he threw a lot of incompletions hoping for a deep ball to connect.
The Broncos had an opportunity to stay with the Patriots but shot themselves in the foot with mistakes all game long.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by stephenson86

Mistakes that Tebow most QB's in the NFL are not good enough-a-quarterback to come back from.

Fixed your post

[murdamal86]

Originally Posted by TimmG6376

Lets look at the last three weeks:

Dan Orlovsky 30/37 353y 2td 1int
Rex Grossman 19/32 252y 2td 1int
Tim Tebow 11/22 194y 0td 0int (12 rush 93y 2td)

So basically bottom feeder QBs can put up respectable numbers passing vs the 32nd ranked Pats defense but Tim can't break 200 yards. The rushing yards are nice, but once you get into a shootout with a competent offense you have to be able to pass the ball.

And I've agreed all along that the Bronco's D has been a little overrated having faced pretty mediocre offenses in this stretch.

So you're ignoring the fact that Orlovsky and Grossman both had more than 30 pass attempts and Tebow didn't?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by murdamal86

So you're ignoring the fact that Orlovsky and Grossman both had more than 30 pass attempts and Tebow didn't?

Do you honestly think that would've made a difference?

[murdamal86]

Originally Posted by Razor

Do you honestly think that would've made a difference?

Did this question have anything to do with what they're talking about though?

[bearfan]

Originally Posted by Razor

Do you honestly think that would've made a difference?

Actually, yes. Had Tebow completed 15-17 passes, his numbers may have been closer to Grossmans, which would have put him to "respectable numbers".

Also, if you count his rushing yards, he attributed 287 yards. I would consider that a good game from my QB...

So whether he had a few more passes, or you keep it the same way, he still contributed "respectable" numbers as well as a couple TDs.

*edit - I see it wasnt you who posted about respectable numbers, Razor.

[jkpigskin]

not sure if this has been posted, but I site the lack of success by Georgia Tech and other option teams in bowl games as a source that this type of offense won't make it in the NFL. If NFL coaches have the time to practice and gameplan against this type of offense, 9 out of 10 times, the offense won't be able to do much. Just like the wildcat, I think the element of surprise and lack of preparation has to do with the success of this kind of offense.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of Tebow and hope he can develop into a decent QB who can be a weapon running the football

[DraftSavant]

Originally Posted by jkpigskin

not sure if this has been posted, but I site the lack of success by Georgia Tech and other option teams in bowl games as a source that this type of offense won't make it in the NFL. If NFL coaches have the time to practice and gameplan against this type of offense, 9 out of 10 times, the offense won't be able to do much. Just like the wildcat, I think the element of surprise and lack of preparation has to do with the success of this kind of offense.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of Tebow and hope he can develop into a decent QB who can be a weapon running the football

I think we've also reached the point where the spread offense has become over-saturated in college football.

The spread’s whole history is in many ways perfectly captured by Joe Tiller’s Big 10 tenure: from its blockbuster beginnings as the perfect underdog offense, which allowed the little guy to compete with the big dog, to me-too offense that everyone had to run, to finally complete saturation, where the spread – or at least the pure, pass-first version as was first developed – might actually help seal the fate of the little guy who tries to isolate inferior receivers against superior defensive backs (and hence also inferior linemen versus superior defensive linemen and linebackers).

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/20...eller-and.html

I don't think it's "schematically" a problem in the NFL, because the talent discrepancy isn't as large. It has more-so to do with Tebow's limitations as a passer. If he was a slightly-above-average level QB, like say David Garrard, how would you even begin to stop this type of offense? I have no idea - it's mathematically impossible.

And then it becomes a chicken/egg argument: if Tebow was an above-average passer to begin with, would they have even bothered with this type of offense?

This type of offense was never going to "revolutionize" the NFL because nobody besides the Broncos/Tebow will ever want to put their quarterback through that type of punishment.

[murdamal86]

Originally Posted by jkpigskin

not sure if this has been posted, but I site the lack of success by Georgia Tech and other option teams in bowl games as a source that this type of offense won't make it in the NFL. If NFL coaches have the time to practice and gameplan against this type of offense, 9 out of 10 times, the offense won't be able to do much. Just like the wildcat, I think the element of surprise and lack of preparation has to do with the success of this kind of offense.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of Tebow and hope he can develop into a decent QB who can be a weapon running the football

I mean....I see what you saying BUT....the Broncos actually haven't ran the option much since the Jets game

[njx9]

Originally Posted by murdamal86

I mean....I see what you saying BUT....the Broncos actually haven't ran the option much since the Jets game

that's completely untrue. they haven't run the triple option hardly at all. they still base most of the running offense off the read option.

[murdamal86]

Originally Posted by njx9

that's completely untrue. they haven't run the triple option hardly at all. they still base most of the running offense off the read option.

Yea i meant more so the triple option than the read option

[lod01]

'All he does is win, all he does is win.'

Oh, sorry, I thought this was the Alex Smith/John Skelton thread.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by Razor

Do you honestly think that would've made a difference?

Grossman 13.26, orlovsky 11.76, Tebow 17.63... Those are the average yards per completion for each QB so I think it's safe to assume that if Tebow had more of an opportunity to throw the ball he probably could have topped Grossmans numbers and his total yards would have been higher than Orlovskys.

Tebow had success but again, the coaches called another horrible game and did nothing to try to overcome the teams mistakes. Their overrated defense played like crap (but Brady will do that to anyone) and their OL couldn't pass protect to save their lives. Losing to NE isn't a terrible thing, but the Bronco's got out played and out coached in pretty much every facet of the game.

[njx9]

*sigh* the defense got beat by a qb who was able to get the ball out in 1.5-2 seconds nearly every single time, then fell back to rushing 3 at a time, because that's basically never worked against the pats in the last decade (in fact, it hasn't). tebow bailed repeatedly *into* pressure, blaine gabbert-style because he has no feel for the pocket and no idea how to move in it if he can't reverse spin in a 6 yard circle. the o-line was definitely worse than it'd been, but was perfectly acceptable for any real qb.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by njx9

*sigh* the defense got beat by a qb who was able to get the ball out in 1.5-2 seconds nearly every single time, then fell back to rushing 3 at a time, because that's basically never worked against the pats in the last decade (in fact, it hasn't). tebow bailed repeatedly *into* pressure, blaine gabbert-style because he has no feel for the pocket and no idea how to move in it if he can't reverse spin in a 6 yard circle. the o-line was definitely worse than it'd been, but was perfectly acceptable for any real qb.

To be fair I think that Tebow did a good job of eluding the initial pressure but really had no place to go after that. Something I wish they would have done is go away from the read option earlier. The pressure was getting there too quick and given all Tebows flaws throwing the ball, he never really had time to set up and throw (and he needs time because everything is super slow for him).

Looking back at some of your posts I took some in stride so I have been critical of Tebow over the past couple of games and despite winning, I think Tebow needs to work on a lot this off season like his set up, reading defenses, locating matchups, lessening his windup, etc.

[njx9]

the pressure was generally getting there fast, but he *has* to learn to step up in the pocket at times. i know it goes completely against everything he's ever done, but you will not survive as an nfl passer if you're only move is to bail out backwards and to the side.

[Caulibflower]

I think if Tebow can learn when to step up in the pocket and when to scramble, he can be an effective quarterback. He does offer a very unique way of attacking defenses - when he is in the game, the Broncos can run the ball in a way that no other offense in the NFL can. Obviously, the running game isn't as emphasized as it used to be throughout the league, but if their defense can hold opponents' offense in check these Broncos are going to remain a competitive team. It's not really an "I told you so" moment when they lose to the Patriots; they lost three fumbles, and that killed their offense. It wasn't like they couldn't move the ball - they were just giving it away. What did they have, like 6 plays in the entire 2nd quarter?

Tebow does have to continue to improve, but I don't necessarily think it needs to be away from running the ball. Admittedly, I think he's such a fun player to watch (when's the last time you saw a QB bulling over linebackers?) that I'm rooting for him to succeed. But I disagree with the common sentiment that he's just sort of... a scrambling quarterback until he can learn to be a better passer. I think he's a scrambler first, and should be accepted as such. It's not just that he can't pass, it's that he offers a kind of offensive weapon which is really hard to defend. However, and this is the point of this post - he does need to up improve his pocket awareness. This is what I notice when I watch him that still bothers me. It's fun as hell to watch him run around, and I think sometimes it's warranted. If the pocket is collapsing, then it's time for Tebow to do his thing and go running around. But there are definitely times where he's got time, he's got protection, and you see him snapping his head back and forth, looking for who-knows-what, double-clutching the ball, and then running around for a sack or 2-yard gain.

It's like he excels when the **** hits the fan, and the play is completely broken - he can still do something in those situations where other QBs are taking the sack or throwing a bad pass. And that's why I really like Tebow. When you're playing tough games, you want a guy who keeps plays alive and gives you those extra chances. But what hurts him, and what hurt the Broncos against the Patriots is that he doesn't execute some basic plays. Early in the game, when the Broncos are just trying to establish a flow, Tebow often doesn't do a very good job of just driving his team down the field and building up that cushion you like to have. It's always a high-wire act with him. It's always gotta be crazy down there for Tebow to look like he belongs. I'd just like to see him get more comfortable in the pocket, set his feet, hit some more slants and outs earlier in the game. He's certainly not the most accurate passer, so I won't try to make any excuses for that, but neither was Donvan McNabb when he was considered a top QB and I think Tebow can at least reach that level of play. I think he's a better athlete than McNabb, inspires more confidence in his teammates, is clutch... etc. So I do like what I'm seeing, I do think he's improving, but at this point.... Calm down, Tim. Not every play needs to end with you running over a safety.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by njx9

the pressure was generally getting there fast, but he *has* to learn to step up in the pocket at times. i know it goes completely against everything he's ever done, but you will not survive as an nfl passer if you're only move is to bail out backwards and to the side.

True, he does need to learn that, but you'd think that they'd do more play action boot legs with him instead of the option. It seems like they want him to roll a certain way and minimize the field of play for him but teams are starting to catch wind and slow him down. I think it's about time to add a new wrinkle and it starts under center. It will be interesting to see how he develops the skills we talked about in off season. From the sound of it Elway has bought into Tebow and will work with him to refine his repertoire this off season. Hopefully it works...

[murdamal86]

Going forward, anybody think the Broncos would be wise to invest in a speedster in the backfield like Demps and Rainey late in the draft (since they're both familar w/Tebow and the option) or a speedster in the slot? I know they have Eddie Royal but he seems to be more hit or miss and not targeted much by Tebow

[TimmG6376]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

True, he does need to learn that, but you'd think that they'd do more play action boot legs with him instead of the option. It seems like they want him to roll a certain way and minimize the field of play for him but teams are starting to catch wind and slow him down. I think it's about time to add a new wrinkle and it starts under center. It will be interesting to see how he develops the skills we talked about in off season. From the sound of it Elway has bought into Tebow and will work with him to refine his repertoire this off season. Hopefully it works...

I think I recall reading somewhere that play action is harder than it seems. Relies a lot on pre-snap reads because the QB has to turn his back to the defense while executing the fake. If one of the things that Tebow is currently struggling with is reading defenses pre-snap, play action could actually be harder for him rather than taking pressure off. Another problem with bootlegs is that they cut the field in half, limiting the QB's options for throwing the ball. It is an excellent counter to an over aggressive defense but not something you can rely on a lot.