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Old 11-21-2011, 06:14 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
Isn't it funny how teams with legit "franchise" left tackles really suck?

Cleveland
Miami
Denver
Carolina
even NYJ

And when you look at the best teams...

NE - 83 year old Matt Light
Baltimore - 800 lb. Bryant McKinnie
Pittsburgh - committee of suck
Houston - solid-but-unspectacular Duane Brown
GB - old man Clifton and unproven Marshall Newhouse
Detroit - the much maligned Jeff Backus
Chicago - J'Marcus ****ing Webb!
New Orleans - Jermon Bushrod, former backup to former franchise LT Jamaal Brown
San Fran - solid-bu-unspectacular Joe Staley

Is having a franchise LT really that important? Seems like spending big on a LT might be foolish.
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Originally Posted by Don Vito View Post
This is an interesting point. It's all about who he is protecting, you need to have the QB first. I will exclude Carolina (and Denver they're winning with Tebow) because Newton's a rookie but all the other teams on your list of franchise LT's have dog **** QB's.

Matt Light has never been elite or realy close to it, but he is decent all around and good enough. Same with Clifton, same with Bushrod, and same with Backus. Give me a franchise QB with a decent LT over Joe Thomas and Colt McCoy or Jake Long and Matt Moore any day.
Is it possibly more vital for success to have a franchise QB and supplement him with a "franchise" center rather than a "franchise" left tackle? Left tackle does protect the quarterback's blind side (assuming he's right handed) but the center needs to have chemistry with the quarterback (understanding his cadance, when to snap it [in shotgun formation]) and the position is responsible for calling line audibles and reading defensive fronts. Isn't that more important to a team's success especially with the type of defenses teams are playing and the different blitzes they're creating than to have that one guy on the edge?
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Old 11-21-2011, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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Left Tackle is still the second most important offensive position. Over time having a great one leads to wins, playoffs and super bowl victories. Most of the top NFL teams right now have better LT's than people acknowledge.

I think the world of Kalil as a prospect. Reminds me some of Jake Long as junior and Joe Thomas as a junior. You can throw in Robert Gallery too but I still think he is the safest pick in the top 5. He's young, huge, athletic and strong. It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest if he goes #1 either. The Colts have been eyeing a LT for years now and if I believe if they think they have a few more Peyton years then they will pass on Luck. Remembers me a lot of the Reggie Bush/Mario Williams scenario in 2006. Not the prospects but rather the fact that everybody is so focused on only one guy being the #1 overall pick, that they ignore the team going into the draft.

Feel free to bash away.
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Old 11-21-2011, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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The only reason they were ok last year was because they ran a quick passing offense. This year when they are using a 7 step drop for Sam, Saffold is getting abused. He is a below average LT. He would be a decent RT though. Sam is getting killed this year because of the o-line and you want to continue letting him ? Can you say Bulger and Carr ?


Saffold just had season ending pectoral surgery too. The recovery time is 4-6 months. Another reason to take Kalil
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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Is it possibly more vital for success to have a franchise QB and supplement him with a "franchise" center rather than a "franchise" left tackle? Left tackle does protect the quarterback's blind side (assuming he's right handed) but the center needs to have chemistry with the quarterback (understanding his cadance, when to snap it [in shotgun formation]) and the position is responsible for calling line audibles and reading defensive fronts. Isn't that more important to a team's success especially with the type of defenses teams are playing and the different blitzes they're creating than to have that one guy on the edge?
I am to lazy but could you do the same analysis with top centers and success of teams
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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He is nowhere near the quality of Thomas or Long as a prospect but he is a top 10 prospect who is likely to go top 5 due to the importance of the position.
Thomas and Long were big men, well over 300lbs when they were drafted Kalil is listed at 295 and will have to gain 20-30lbs. at the next level.
After he gains that weight, we will have to see if it affects his overall game.
If he can carry that weight and makes a solid adjustment to pro ball, then he may well move up a notch and become much closer to Thomas and Long.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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I'm very much on the center being the most important lineman and the guards being as important as the tackles are nowadays.

I know the Vikings line has basically stunk since we let Birk go and that a trend of the teams who have solid performing lines tend to have a good-great center and a great QB, the two guys responsible for the reads in this day and age.

In fact, part of the reason that the Bears and Vikings both get such good pass rushes against the Packers is because we take the line play out of the center and put it on the OTs by basically just rushing 4 consistently. We might not be able to do anything else against them but we do get after Rodgers pretty consistently.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:04 AM    (permalink
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Left Tackle is still the second most important offensive position. Over time having a great one leads to wins, playoffs and super bowl victories. Most of the top NFL teams right now have better LT's than people acknowledge.

I think the world of Kalil as a prospect. Reminds me some of Jake Long as junior and Joe Thomas as a junior. You can throw in Robert Gallery too but I still think he is the safest pick in the top 5. He's young, huge, athletic and strong. It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest if he goes #1 either. The Colts have been eyeing a LT for years now and if I believe if they think they have a few more Peyton years then they will pass on Luck. Remembers me a lot of the Reggie Bush/Mario Williams scenario in 2006. Not the prospects but rather the fact that everybody is so focused on only one guy being the #1 overall pick, that they ignore the team going into the draft.

Feel free to bash away.
Your viewpoint is common but you did nothing to back it up. You just made a blanket statement that LT is important and having a great one leads to wins and SBs. My point was that common sense is wrong, you don't need an elite LT to be a SB winner. Look at the last few.

Packers - Chad Clifton, good player but not considered elite and not paid like it either.
Saints - Jermon Bushrod. Hardly "franchise". They plugged him in off the bench and decided he was good enough.
08 Steelers - Max Starks, I think?
Giants - David Diehl, solid player with a few great years, not elite and not paid like an elite LT.
Colts - Tarik Glenn was a great LT that I didn't really appreciate til he was gone, but he was never in the Willie Roaf/Jonathan Ogden/Orlando Pace category.
05 Steelers - Max Starks again

How did any of the last 6 SB winners get to the SB because of the play of their left tackle? I could go back farther and talk about the Pats teams, or the Bucs with Roman Oben, etc.

No, you can't have a ****** OL and expect to get anywhere. Your LT has to be competent, and a good one helps. But having a Joe Thomas or Walter Jones hasn't helped any team win a SB in a long time. The last team with a truly elite (highly-paid) LT to win, in large part BECAUSE of him. was the Rams. Yes Ogden was elite but that Ravens team won because of defense, not offense.

Teams with elite, highly-paid LTs don't appear to have the necessary talent at other positions to compete consistently. Seems like in today's NFL, it makes sense to spend at other positions. It only makes sense, strategy is always evolving and trying to create mismatches. So once teams started putting the far-and-away best OLman on the left side, teams started moving their pass rushers around to get a better matchup.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Teams with elite, highly-paid LTs don't appear to have the necessary talent at other positions to compete consistently. Seems like in today's NFL, it makes sense to spend at other positions. It only makes sense, strategy is always evolving and trying to create mismatches. So once teams started putting the far-and-away best OLman on the left side, teams started moving their pass rushers around to get a better matchup.
This. Defenses are now moving their best rushers up and down the line to get the best match up. Consequently, a QB's ability to move around the pocket, extend the play, and/or escape is much more important than having a franchise LT.

As mentioned earlier, I think having a franchise center is becoming more important than having a franchise LT...especially with all the disruptive DTs in the league like Suh and Ngata.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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I've felt that the value of the LT position has been very overrated for a while now. However, I do believe that Kalil is right there in the same class as Thomas and Long (remember, he's still a junior) and is worth a top 3 pick.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Similar to D'Brickashaw Ferguson as a prospect?
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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He is nowhere near the quality of Thomas or Long as a prospect but he is a top 10 prospect who is likely to go top 5 due to the importance of the position.
Thomas and Long were big men, well over 300lbs when they were drafted Kalil is listed at 295 and will have to gain 20-30lbs. at the next level.
After he gains that weight, we will have to see if it affects his overall game.
If he can carry that weight and makes a solid adjustment to pro ball, then he may well move up a notch and become much closer to Thomas and Long.
Similar to Tyron Smith...right?

Kalil is a better LT prospect than Jake Long was around the same stage.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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Is Kalil a future NFL pro bowler ?
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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No, He is a rich man J'Marcs Webb at best.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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Is Kalil a future NFL pro bowler ?
Yes, if he gets proper NFL coaching.

The mistakes he makes in college...honestly, it looks like he makes them because he's bored. It's always an effort mistake with him, and he has a few of them every game. Once an NFL coach starts chewing into his ass, he'll be really good.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Kalil was also said to be undersized for his position coming out. Now he's the highest paid center in the league.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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No, He is a rich man J'Marcs Webb at best.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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For what it's worth, and it's still early, but right now in my opinion Kalil falls right in between Joe Thomas and Jake Long as a prospect coming out of college.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Yep wasn't serious
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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For what it's worth, and it's still early, but right now in my opinion Kalil falls right in between Joe Thomas and Jake Long as a prospect coming out of college.
Nice! On 11/3, I wrote:

I'd put Kalil between Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Not as big as Long, but a better athlete. Joe Thomas is just a freak though, and the best OT prospect in recent history. Can't quite put Kalil there, but he's going to be one of the best from Day 1.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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He reminds me of a white Dbrick that is better at run blocking.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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For what it's worth, and it's still early, but right now in my opinion Kalil falls right in between Joe Thomas and Jake Long as a prospect coming out of college.



Bradford will be happy. Moving Saffold to RT will help too. He is a very good player. Are there any OG's worthy of the #2 pick in rd 2 ? The Rams need to get this thing fixed the right way.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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Ponder will be happy. Moving Charlie Johnson to RG will help too. He is a very good player. Are there any DBs worthy of the #2 pick in rd 2 ? The Vikings need to get this thing fixed the right way.
Fixed that for you, Kalil belongs to us!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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I do see it as a battle between the Vikings and Rams for the services of Mr. Kalil. Ironcially both teams could use a great corner if they were to go that way. If Jason Smith has something left then i think the Rams could pass on a tackle, not sure if the Vikings could do the same.
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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Fixed that for you, Kalil belongs to us!!!!!!!!!


Who will be picking 2nd if we both tie 2-14 ? Who plays the worst schedule ?
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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I do see it as a battle between the Vikings and Rams for the services of Mr. Kalil. Ironcially both teams could use a great corner if they were to go that way. If Jason Smith has something left then i think the Rams could pass on a tackle, not sure if the Vikings could do the same.

The Rams can't go into 2012 with Smith at RT and Saffold at LT. Bradford won't last.

Last edited by armageddon : 12-05-2011 at 08:46 PM.
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