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Old 01-14-2012, 12:36 PM    (permalink
Brown Leader
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Originally Posted by JetMan01 View Post
player A Qb rating 78.2 308-543 (56.7%) 3474 yds 32 td 18 int
player B Qb rating 80.4 300-516 (58.1%) 3398 yds 21 td 13 int

The numbers are similar enough and its a complex argument, so hear me out. I feel alot of times fans critique a player based on a set of fluctuating criteria that continously adjusts to allow for contradictions to exist. For ex, sometimes winning is weighed very heavily as a significant determing factor of what composes a good qb (in which case bad stats are excused see vince young), sometimes stats serve that evaluative function (cam newton), and sometimes its just the eye test (everybody). What I mean to say is that there are differing metrics of a qb and fans unknowingly compromise their judgment by utilizing one set of logic against another. Sanchez falls victim to this, because winning is obviously a team thing, but somtimes its regarded as a individual thing. For instance, Tom Brady is a "winner" but Sanchez is on a team that "wins". The differentiation is made with situational logic riddled with bias.

Player A is Sanchez, Player B is rookie qb Andy Dalton. There numbers are very similar with the exception that Sanchez has more tds. Alot of fans have alot of respect for Dalton because he appears to have a promising future, but hold on a second. Sanchez is only ONE year older, he's been to two AFC Champ games, and he put up 30+ tds this past season. Dalton won't receive scrutiny because he's a rookie, but also because the expectations were low.

Is it not then fair to say that Sanchez is a victim of lofty team expectations and that his individual performance is worthy of admiration given out to other players, but that he doesn't receive it because his team didn't perform as well as it had been expected to? His team did well when he didn't score 30 tds, and he rightly had critics for poor individual play. But when his team did poorly, and he did put up some big td games, the same critics employ a different set of logic to critique him.

*I forsee a potential counterargument being that his play still wasn't good ennough this year. To that I counter with Dalton. Sanchez put up numbers that compare favorably to vick, fitzpatrick, freeman, and flacco too. If all of those guys aren't good enough, then basically you're not happy unless you have a top 10 qb, which is silly. and SEcondly, its undeniable that his play has improved. That his team did not go as far therefore should have less to do with him then is billed, because if his play alone was so important then the team record should improve as he does. Its a team game. Pick a criteria and stick to it. Either way, I feel like he's got a defense for each: hes won, and he's statistically getting better. It's only when you illogically mix the two that an argument can be made he needs to be replaced right now.
Great post.
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Old 01-14-2012, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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i don't think it's fair to compare Dalton's numbers to whichever year you chose for Sanchez. It's all about progression and regression and Sanchez this year looked worse than he did last year. He regressed. 26 td's and 18 picks with an ok completion % of 56.7

He needs weapons too. we'll see. i'm not a believer, but i'm not throwing him to the trash right now...but he's closer to the trash heap then he is any glory
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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i don't think it's fair to compare Dalton's numbers to whichever year you chose for Sanchez. It's all about progression and regression and Sanchez this year looked worse than he did last year. He regressed. 26 td's and 18 picks with an ok completion % of 56.7

He needs weapons too. we'll see. i'm not a believer, but i'm not throwing him to the trash right now...but he's closer to the trash heap then he is any glory
This. People are saying Dalton has done well because hes a rookie so he will now be expected to improve his numbers next year. If in 3 years Dalton is putting up the same numbers, it wont be good because it means he hasn't progressed.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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I think the point is that if you're waiting for Mark Sanchez to become Matt Cassel or Alex Quinn - two guys who who must be managed, manipulated, and massaged with excellent play calling and supporting casts - then you might as well try to upgrade if you have the chance.
Who the **** is Alex Quinn?
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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A clone made up of the suckiness that was Alex Smith and Brady Quinn of course.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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A clone made up of the suckiness that was Alex Smith and Brady Quinn of course.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm rooting for you guys so hell no. Also, I just remembered I have an autograph of Alex Smith somewhere. I should send it to you.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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I'm rooting for you guys so hell no. Also, I just remembered I have an autograph of Alex Smith somewhere. I should send it to you.
I would gladly hang that in my classroom.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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i don't think it's fair to compare Dalton's numbers to whichever year you chose for Sanchez.
It's Sanchez's numbers this year, he just added his rushing numbers/tds to his totals. It's a bit misleading to lump the numbers together like that without context. Anyone looking at that would think Sanchez threw 32 passing TDs.


And I don't think the comparison to Dalton is somehow flattering to Sanchez. Dalton is a rookie who already has people questioning his upside. If Dalton puts those numbers in his 3rd season people will be calling him a disappointment.

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Old 01-14-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Mark Sanchez is a more mobile version of Rex Grossman but with a worse arm.
Rex Grossman's entire skillset is throwing deep, something Sanchez barely does. That is a terrible comparison.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Rex Grossman's entire skillset is throwing deep, something Sanchez barely does. That is a terrible comparison.
Grossman (or at least the current Redskins version of him) is actually at his best throwing between the hash marks, just like Sanchez. I recall hearing Greg Cosell compare Sanchez to Grossman, it's a comparison that has been made before.

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Old 01-14-2012, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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i don't think it's fair to compare Dalton's numbers to whichever year you chose for Sanchez. It's all about progression and regression and Sanchez this year looked worse than he did last year. He regressed. 26 td's and 18 picks with an ok completion % of 56.7

He needs weapons too. we'll see. i'm not a believer, but i'm not throwing him to the trash right now...but he's closer to the trash heap then he is any glory
Well the guy lost Edwards and Crotch and they were replaced with Plax. So the talent/productivity at WR regressed terribly. Crotch and Edwards (along with Keller) opened things up for Holmes, and Santonio just couldn't make up their production on his own because he isn't that good unless he has two other + receivers around him. See: Pittsburgh with Hines Ward and Mike Wallace.
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Old 01-14-2012, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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As for the comparison to Freeman, Vick, Fitz, and Flacco...

Vick and Flacco had bad statistical years by their standard, and if it looked like that every year, people wouldn't like them much either.

Fitzpatrick crashed hard to end the season, if he plays next season like he played the second half of this year, no one will want him.

Freeman is highly touted because he had an amazing second season with a not so amazing cast. If Sanchez had any year as good as Freeman's last year, people would have a little more believe in him.
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Old 01-14-2012, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Grossman (or at least the current Redskins version of him) is actually at his best throwing between the hash marks, just like Sanchez. I recall hearing Greg Cosell compare Sanchez to Grossman, it's a comparison that has been made before.
The redskins run a bunch of quick slants?
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Old 01-14-2012, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Rex Grossman's entire skillset is throwing deep, something Sanchez barely does. That is a terrible comparison.
He (Grossman) prefers to throw deep, but his skillset really isn't suited for it, and that's a big part of his problem. He's fine if he has a clean pocket and can plant and drive off his back foot, but if forced to reset his feet you can really see his lack of armstrength show up.

In terms of physical skillset, arm talent, and ability to see the field, there's not that much difference.
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Old 01-14-2012, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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It all depends on who they can get but I think the Jets already knew they weren't going to be a great team with Sanchez being a volume passer at this point in his progression. Fixing the running game should be their #1 priority, 22nd in the league isn't going to cut it. Lamar Miller could be a really good fit for them.
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Old 01-14-2012, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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This. People are saying Dalton has done well because hes a rookie so he will now be expected to improve his numbers next year. If in 3 years Dalton is putting up the same numbers, it wont be good because it means he hasn't progressed.
Agree completely. How can someone honestly compare a ROOKIE to a 3rd year QB???

And the Rookie has just as good stats as the 3rd year guy! This definitely says something about Sanchez that he's not a franchise QB, but more of a statement that he's a journeyman QB. I don't buy the age difference (not with a rookie), because there is a HUGE difference between getting two years of experience in the AFC east playing the Patriots vs. playing Air Force or New Mexico (or whoever else TCU plays in conference).

To the statement about how Sanchez compares to Freeman, Flacco, Fitzy, and Vick... it's tough to really compare stats... Some teams throw a lot more. Some rely on their QB a lot. The Ravens have a great running game and Flacco either looks decent or terrible. I will agree that the jury is still out on him, as well as Freeman; but let's give Freeman one more year to see if he improves. The Bucs were pretty bad this year considering Freemans hype from last year, so I want to see if he improves next year.

Difference between Fitzy and Sanchez? Fitzy started to show improvement over the past couple years before the Bills collapsed. I would say when he's on, he's an average QB (still to be determined if he can be a legit QB or journeyman). I don't think Sanchez is even average or on Fitzy's level right now. I feel more comfortable with the ball in Fitzy's hands; while a lot less when Sanchez has the ball. It's not about that teams need a top 10 QB, but I think you at least need an average QB unless the rest of your team is completely stacked (which has happened more than a few times in the past decade). Sanchez has not improved in my opinion enough to even warrant an average QB spot. I believe he's in the bottom 1/3 of the league.

Sanchez hasn't shown the leadership ability, or the ability to consistently put his team in a position to win. I think a stacked Jets team failing to make the playoffs showed his weaknesses this year. He can't throw with pressure in his face from what i've seen of him. Anyone can throw the ball when times are going good and your line is giving you time; but only stable, at least average QBs are able to right the ship when things are going wrong. Sanchez hasn't shown this ability so far 3 years into his career, which makes me believe he's a journeyman at best. Obviously time is still very much on his side and he can prove me wrong and turn it around like many QBs do in their career... but I just don't see it happening with the way things currently have played out.

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Old 01-14-2012, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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Agree completely. How can someone honestly compare a ROOKIE to a 3rd year QB???

And the Rookie has just as good stats as the 3rd year guy! This definitely says something about Sanchez that he's not a franchise QB, but more of a statement that he's a journeyman QB. I don't buy the age difference (not with a rookie), because there is a HUGE difference between getting two years of experience in the AFC east playing the Patriots vs. playing Air Force or New Mexico (or whoever else TCU plays in conference).

To the statement about how Sanchez compares to Freeman, Flacco, Fitzy, and Vick... it's tough to really compare stats... Some teams throw a lot more. Some rely on their QB a lot. The Ravens have a great running game and Flacco either looks decent or terrible. I will agree that the jury is still out on him, as well as Freeman; but let's give Freeman one more year to see if he improves. The Bucs were pretty bad this year considering Freemans hype from last year, so I want to see if he improves next year.

Difference between Fitzy and Sanchez? Fitzy started to show improvement over the past couple years before the Bills collapsed. I would say when he's on, he's an average QB (still to be determined if he can be a legit QB or journeyman). I don't think Sanchez is even average or on Fitzy's level right now. I feel more comfortable with the ball in Fitzy's hands; while a lot less when Sanchez has the ball. It's not about that teams need a top 10 QB, but I think you at least need an average QB unless the rest of your team is completely stacked (which has happened more than a few times in the past decade). Sanchez has not improved in my opinion enough to even warrant an average QB spot. I believe he's in the bottom 1/3 of the league.

Sanchez hasn't shown the leadership ability, or the ability to consistently put his team in a position to win. I think a stacked Jets team failing to make the playoffs showed his weaknesses this year. He can't throw with pressure in his face from what i've seen of him. Anyone can throw the ball when times are going good and your line is giving you time; but only stable, at least average QBs are able to right the ship when things are going wrong. Sanchez hasn't shown this ability so far 3 years into his career, which makes me believe he's a journeyman at best. Obviously time is still very much on his side and he can prove me wrong and turn it around like many QBs do in their career... but I just don't see it happening with the way things currently have played out.
I don't mean to call you out here, there are certainly elements of truth here and very valid critiques, but I do feel that this is an example of what I'm talking about. You employ two different metrics to grade out sanchez. He put his team in position to win 2/3 years quite well. he was that average qb you speak of. this year the team didnt win, but statistically he was much better. he was top 5 in touchdowns, not bad, certainly not average. That his team wasn't top 5, or that he didn't somehow put them in position to win, is indicative not of his continuing failures, but that his team dynamic has changed. Thats beside the point though, because the meat of it is that either way, he takes the brunt of criticism. There are fair ways to criticize him, certainly there are, but I don't believe that this way, to combine two different sets of logic, is one of them. He's certainly at the least average, not bottom 3rd.

A side argument, if Alex Smith can lead his team past the Saints, I dont think there is any reason to think why Sanchez cant.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Sanchez could probably win a home playoff game with 5 turnovers too. That puts him in some special company.
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