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Old 01-10-2012, 12:18 PM    (permalink
ATLDirtyBirds
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
It really isn't that hard to scheme around elite edge rushers if your interior is stout. We create so much space in the middle that our tackles are really only concerned with being beat to the inside, and Brees has a clean pocket to step into.

It's just a better way to spread your resources IMO. We can power both our running and passing game with our elite interior, and even though we broke the bank for Jahri Evans, and probably will for Nicks, but it will still pale in comparison to what some tackles make.

Watching Nicks and Evans work is a thing of beauty. They are awesome.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Thank you kind sir. You guys need a center terribly. Sullivan did not develop according to plan. Vikings should trade down for more picks. I would start the rebuilding your team around Ponder, Allen, and Greenway. Everything starts in the front 7, and ends with a tackle normally.

The Jets always struggle because Mangold gets hurt.
Actually John Sullivan was by far the Vikings best player along the O-line this year. They even went ahead and gave him an contract extentsion.

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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
I think oline in general has become overrated. Great qbs make everyone on offense better. Including the line.
I don't agree that the o-line has become overrated in general. I do however completely agree that the great QBs make the entire O-line look better. Thus If you have a great QB you don't necesarilly need a very good O-line.

However IMO it's the exact opposite if you are team without a great QB, or especially a team with a Young QB. In that case I think having a good o-line is an absolute must.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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The infamous "chemistry" must be mentioned.

I don't think having a stud any any spot is essential. But woe be the team with a great big stinker somewhere along the front, because teams will go right at any perceived weakness. Overall, I think defensive schemes exploiting a weak spot is a bigger concern than how many studs you have.

Center is definitely an underappreciated position, especially now that so many teams have moved to a 34.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Bills have Levitre(2nd Rd Pick), Wood(1st Rd Pick) and Urbik(3rd Round Pick) in the interior with Chad Rinehart and Colin Brown backing them up.

We start a 7th Rd guy at LT and a UDFA at RT. I think the interior has grown more important because of all the 3-4 Defenses being run now a days where it's imperative that you're able to hold up in the middle of the line.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Watching Nicks and Evans work is a thing of beauty. They are awesome.

I was worried after last season... they both had really down years after Evans got his huge deal.

Shout out to De La Puente though! He's been HUGE in solidifying our line play. It seems like it would be the easiest job in the world, pancaked between those two monsters, with Brees as your QB, but Olin Kreutz made it look incredibly difficult, and was really hurting us.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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LT is and will always remain the key to any OL that wants to throw the ball. Nothing has changed, teams put their best pass rushers at RDE and you had better be able to stop them or your passing attack will stall quickly.

A LT is basically on an island while interior OLmen block as a group with the OC double teaming whoever threatens the QB. Worse yet, the RDE attacks the QB's blindside and he rarely knows what is happening there and must trust his LT to do the job.

Take the Giants as an example, their defense started to step up when their RDE Pierre-Paul started to really come into his own and Green Bay will game plan their offense around stopping his pass rush.

You just have to look at how many LT's go early in the draft to realize that HC's and GM's take the position very seriously, OG's and OC's basically remain an afterthought, which can be filled later in the draft.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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Yep I've gotta agree with the rest of the Ravens fans saying that Yanda is out best OL. It's not even close really. Grubbs would come in 2nd for me, and Birk slightly edges out Oher for 4th. Birk's age is starting to show and I hope we find somebody else either in the draft or free agency instead of re-signing him. McKinnie is easily our worst OL and I'd say that LT is probably our biggest need. We could be in quite a predicament if/when Grubbs leaves this offseason.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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LT is and will always remain the key to any OL that wants to throw the ball. Nothing has changed, teams put their best pass rushers at RDE and you had better be able to stop them or your passing attack will stall quickly.
Clay Matthews, Osi Umenyiora, LaMarr Woodley, Jason Babin, Cliff Avril, Robert Mathis, Elvis Dumervil, Shaun Phillips, Chris Clemons, and Chris Long all play on the other side. You better be able to stop them or your passing attack will stall quickly.
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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49ers Line is no way in the top 15.

For a few weeks in the season it did look like things were what we'd hope with the investments. Smith was getting time he has never had. After 3 seconds he was looking to flip it to a checkdown or protecting the ball in case of sack but he had that extra second to keep looking down-field.
Ravens abused us and other teams took note.

And the line has something to do with the teams suckiness at getting hard 1 or 2 yard 1st Downs or Touchdowns.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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LT is and will always remain the key to any OL that wants to throw the ball. Nothing has changed, teams put their best pass rushers at RDE and you had better be able to stop them or your passing attack will stall quickly.
Sounds pretty old school to me though. Look at the top passing teams. Packers had about half a dozen guys play LT, Newhouse being the main guy. Saints have Bushrod. Light is quite possibly the worst lineman for the Pats. Steelers aren't good at tackle(they aren't good at guard either). Falcons aren't good at tackle. Lions are solid at tackle, but it's not like they are great.

It seems to me that there is no correlation between elite LT play and passing. In fact, given how bad the Browns, Eagles and Dolphins in particular are at throwing consistently, the reverse almost seems true.

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You just have to look at how many LT's go early in the draft to realize that HC's and GM's take the position very seriously, OG's and OC's basically remain an afterthought, which can be filled later in the draft.
You say that like they don't get things wrong or aren't stubborn and slow to adapt to change. Some of them still take RBs with top 15 picks.

I just find it interesting that the teams that have been the most successful over recent times really haven't put any priority on OT and perhaps even have focused on the interior.

Pittsburgh are a bad example, but their only highly drafted lineman is their center.

Ravens have a 1st on their RT, FA for C and LT(a hack who wasn't any good for the past 5 years) and a 1st and 3rd on their guards.

Patriots have a 1st at OG, FA at G and C and 1st and 2nd at OT. No denying though that the two best linemen are the two guards.

Packers are all over the place and Bulaga is their only top pick but again, it is the interior that is their strength.

The Bills are going to be an interesting one to watch, they've put a massive focus on the interior, could be the ultimate test for any theory, though they draft so horribly everywhere else that it makes it hard to judge.

Main point though is just because the NFL teams are doing it, doesn't mean they are still right. The game has changed a lot.

The Vikes are a great example, imo. We have had inept to downright awful tackle play for the past 8 years now. Our line basically has looked alright to good when we've had a strong interior and falls to god damned awful when the interior loses even one part. We haven't had an NFL average LT since I've been following, at best we've had an NFL average RT for a couple of years. Yet for a few years there when we had an elite C and then an elite LG we had a pretty decent passing attack(with average QBs at that in Favre and Culpepper). Now we didn't put that line together intentionally, it was almost by mistake that we built from the inside out(we gave a hack LT so much money we had to keep him, signed Hutch after getting spurned by others and lucked into Birk) but we still did it and it actually worked. Now our line basically just gets worse at the same rate that Hutch is slowing each year. Sullivan is actually solid in the middle as well.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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49ers offensive line can pretty much be ranked from left to right. Staley > Iupati > Goodwin > Snyder > Davis. Staley played a a Pro-Bowl level, though 2nd Team All-Pro might have been a stretch, this season and Iupati and Goodwin were both fairly solid to good. Snyder was pretty meh and Davis was bad to mediocre with moments of greatness.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Yep I've gotta agree with the rest of the Ravens fans saying that Yanda is out best OL. It's not even close really. Grubbs would come in 2nd for me, and Birk slightly edges out Oher for 4th. Birk's age is starting to show and I hope we find somebody else either in the draft or free agency instead of re-signing him. McKinnie is easily our worst OL and I'd say that LT is probably our biggest need. We could be in quite a predicament if/when Grubbs leaves this offseason.
Just piggy backing off this to say that I also love Yanda with the rest of my Ravens brothers. He is a monster guard and a great RT if needed.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Clay Matthews, Osi Umenyiora, LaMarr Woodley, Jason Babin, Cliff Avril, Robert Mathis, Elvis Dumervil, Shaun Phillips, Chris Clemons, and Chris Long all play on the other side. You better be able to stop them or your passing attack will stall quickly.
Osi doesn't usually play LE, he was just used there bc JPP has been a beast, and he is now a guy we move around more often in obvious passing situations.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Having your LT on an island really isn't an issue with the way a lot of offenses are designed now. Taking shorter drops, and stepping all the way up to hit short to intermediate passes in the middle of the field is a lot more prevalent than taking deep drops and standing back while your LT battles a DE out in the open.

The Saints are the premier passing team almost every year since Brees has been here, and our LT pass protection has been mediocre to solid at best, and we chip and help a lot, but it's really easily covered up by our scheme.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Just piggy backing off this to say that I also love Yanda with the rest of my Ravens brothers. He is a monster guard and a great RT if needed.
And Yanda was 2nd team All-Pro behind the Saints duo. Definite Top 5 guard in the NFL.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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Osi doesn't usually play LE, he was just used there bc JPP has been a beast, and he is now a guy we move around more often in obvious passing situations.
Fine, then switch him for Tuck or JPP. Really makes no difference...
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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49ers offensive line can pretty much be ranked from left to right. Staley > Iupati > Goodwin > Snyder > Davis. Staley played a a Pro-Bowl level, though 2nd Team All-Pro might have been a stretch, this season and Iupati and Goodwin were both fairly solid to good. Snyder was pretty meh and Davis was bad to mediocre with moments of greatness.
Davis is still getting a bad rap. He's played really well the last half, aside from the Ravens game (which I chalk up to poor communication with Rachal.)
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Sounds pretty old school to me though. Look at the top passing teams. Packers had about half a dozen guys play LT, Newhouse being the main guy. Saints have Bushrod. Light is quite possibly the worst lineman for the Pats. Steelers aren't good at tackle(they aren't good at guard either). Falcons aren't good at tackle. Lions are solid at tackle, but it's not like they are great.

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You haven't checked your facts, Packers have Clifton as their starting LT, a perennial All Pro, sure they had to make do every time he is injured but so does every team, Bulaga will likely replace him at LT when Clifton retires and he was a 1st rounder.
The Saints took Jammal Brown in round 1 to play LT, he just didn't pan out but it gave Bushrod time to learn how to play the position.
The Pats drafted a 1st rounder last draft, Nate Solder, to be the replacement for Light when he retires.
The Steelers consistently draft in the 28-32 range where finding a solid LT is extremely difficult.
The Falcons drafted Sam Baker in round 1 to play LT, he was just injured this past season.
It seems to me that there is no correlation between elite LT play and passing. In fact, given how bad the Browns, Eagles and Dolphins in particular are at throwing consistently, the reverse almost seems true.

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The Eagles are the only team with a franchise QB and Peters gives him all day to throw the ball, Vick just isn't very consistent.

You say that like they don't get things wrong or aren't stubborn and slow to adapt to change. Some of them still take RBs with top 15 picks.

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The list of GM's who have drafted LT's in round 1 is very, very long including the best in the game, suggesting that almost to a man they consider the LT position to be crucial to their team, far more so than intereior OLmen.
I just find it interesting that the teams that have been the most successful over recent times really haven't put any priority on OT and perhaps even have focused on the interior.

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The great passing teams draft very late because they tend to be the successful teams. This limits their ability to find a LT in round 1 but they still draft them whenever the opportunity provides one. They go so fast in the draft that it is extremely rare for a top team to get a shot at one.
Pittsburgh are a bad example, but their only highly drafted lineman is their center.

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That is because they draft so late not because they prefer to draft an OC over a LT. Their LT is a 3rd rounder which is about all you can expect from a team drafting late every year.

Ravens have a 1st on their RT, FA for C and LT(a hack who wasn't any good for the past 5 years) and a 1st and 3rd on their guards.

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They had high hopes Oher could play LT when they drafted him, just didn't pan out and they paid a lot of money for McKinnie, a former 1st rounder, in FA.
Patriots have a 1st at OG, FA at G and C and 1st and 2nd at OT. No denying though that the two best linemen are the two guards.

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No denying either that they consider the LT position crucial.
Packers are all over the place and Bulaga is their only top pick but again, it is the interior that is their strength.

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Clifton is a perennial All Pro at LT and Bulaga is a future All Pro, don't see where that suggests the interior is their strength.
The Bills are going to be an interesting one to watch, they've put a massive focus on the interior, could be the ultimate test for any theory, though they draft so horribly everywhere else that it makes it hard to judge.

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The Bills lack the money to retain any of their stars, they constantly leave through FA or trades. They had an All Pro LT in Peters but refused to pay him the going rate, as a result, their OL is mediocre at best.
Main point though is just because the NFL teams are doing it, doesn't mean they are still right. The game has changed a lot.

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Teams draft LT's extremely high in the draft all the time, sure, a lot of them end up not being good enough to play LT and are switched to the interior but it isn't because they want to put them there, it is simply because it takes far less talent to play on the inside of the OL.
Sure, the game has changed a lot but it changed to a passing league where the LT on offense is the second most important position on the offense.
Any study of the drafting of all 32 teams clearly has demonstrated this. You are mistaking wanting a LT and being able to find one at your draft position.

The Vikes are a great example, imo. We have had inept to downright awful tackle play for the past 8 years now. Our line basically has looked alright to good when we've had a strong interior and falls to god damned awful when the interior loses even one part. We haven't had an NFL average LT since I've been following, at best we've had an NFL average RT for a couple of years. Yet for a few years there when we had an elite C and then an elite LG we had a pretty decent passing attack(with average QBs at that in Favre and Culpepper). Now we didn't put that line together intentionally, it was almost by mistake that we built from the inside out(we gave a hack LT so much money we had to keep him, signed Hutch after getting spurned by others and lucked into Birk) but we still did it and it actually worked. Now our line basically just gets worse at the same rate that Hutch is slowing each year. Sullivan is actually solid in the middle as well.
The Viking had a 1st rounder playing LT for years. He may not have been the best but they still used a 1st rounder to obtain him and I strongly suspect they are praying Kalil falls to them in this years draft.

I see nothing to even suggest that LT has lost its importance, if anything, teams seem desperate to fill the position if the opportunity arises even with a high failure rate. The more the pass dominates pro football, the more important the LT position becomes.

To me you are just fudging with the facts to suit your argument, but I see absolutely nothing to suggest you are even remotely correct.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
Davis is still getting a bad rap. He's played really well the last half, aside from the Ravens game (which I chalk up to poor communication with Rachal.)
I wouldn't say really well or for the whole last half. He certainly improved but he was still the weakest part of the offensive line providing Rachal wasn't in.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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Your logic is somewhat flawed.

LT is the most difficult position to play on the line. A good RT is at best at an average LT. Look at Michael Oher who is a good solid RT but would be a below average starting LT.

It's a lot easier to find good interior lineman than tackles. In fact, I think you are often calling good LT's average and average LT's poor. I think Clifton, Light, and Backus are still above average LT's. Who's better? - Thomas, Long, Clady, D'Brick, Gross, Peters, Roos, Okung, D Brown. And?

Looking at the 8 teams left in the playoffs - I see one team with a top 3 LT (Denver) and second with a borderline top 5 (Houston) and three more with above average starting LT's (Saints, NE, GB). Not sure how that exactly fits much of a trend.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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Clifton Hardly played this year, and it all has been Marshall Newhouse left side. Sitton and Wells were our two best linemen this year. Bulaga played like an All Pro this season. We put a first into Derek Sherrod, because he was BPA. Most of the playoff teams have tackles who arent elite. Calls on the line have been more important because of the less practice time to gell as units this year.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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the only offensive lineman needed is big cliff:





that's good money
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:26 AM    (permalink
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I played offensive line for nearly 15 years including at the lower collegiate level and i am also a lifelong bengals fan. We do not have a top 5 OL as it stands right now and in fact that should be one of our big focal points going into this draft aside from secondary. We have one really good tackle in Andrew Whitworth and another who had a solid year but still hasn't quite reached his full potential in Andre Smith. I like him a lot but it remains to be seen whether or not they will resign him and in what capacity. I think we have a pretty good Center in Kyle Cook but he's nothing special and both of our Guards are nothing to write home about. Bobby is pretty good but his best days are certainly behind him and Nate Livings is barely an NFL starter IMO. We need to either move Andre inside and draft an OT or keep him there and draft a G in the early rounds of this draft without a doubt.

Also, to the guy above me^ that 225lb bench press "100x" is basically that guy bouncing it off his chest about two inches every time. I don't know if thats supposed to be serious, but for god's sake I hope it isn't.
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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I thought your original post said Grubbs and Yanda when I repped you. Now that I see it was Birk instead of Yanda I'm going to allow you to keep the rep towards a post with equal or greater value.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Well Rachal was benched after about a month to kickoff the season and replaced by Adam Snyder. In the first few games, the 49ers offensive line was terrible and allowing way too much pressure. It improved pretty much with Rachal left the lineup. And it's been "okay" since. The unit still isn't that great (Alex led the league in sacks), but it can get better with experience. Anthony Davis has been as inconsistent as it gets. Same with Goodwin.
Only because the Cardinals had to use 2 different QBs, Arizona allowed 9 more sacks than the 9ers
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