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Old 01-11-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
the_dark_knight
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The correct answer is AJ Green, he'll be better then both in the long run.
"better" or different?

I'll go with different. Julio is a more accomplished blocker (an underrated aspect of a WR) plus he's more physical, and just a different type of WR. Can't hate on AJ for the year he had, but statistically Julio per game was better than Green. But Green stayed healthy for the most part where Julio did not, so that's a + for Green.

I honestly think both are going to be phenomenal and I don't think either team got the 'worse' WR, but I think they are just different and both will end up in the top tier of WRs. Much like Harrison vs TO vs Moss. 3 different WRs who were all, all-time great talents at the position.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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I think Thomas is going to be a better more versatile Marshall. Marshall was vertical threat for a pass happy Broncos in his last year, but that doesn't make him a very good vertical threat. His speed limits how much he is going to burn you deep and it isn't like Burress where he just destroys defenders in jump balls. Marshall has always been best on short routes where you give him a chance to get a lot of YAC, which is one of the reasons you seem him get close to 100 catches every year. I think Marshall is probably a bit stronger after the catch and breaks tackles with more ease but Thomas makes up for it with being a superior deep threat. He has elite speed (when healthy I think he's closer to 4.3 than 4.4 speed), and better vertical ability. Thomas is surprisingly not the dominant blocker that you would think coming Georgia Tech and possessing his size. He really needs to work on being more physical at the line, and he still needs to develop his route running. Against KC you saw how a physical corner can totally throw the guy off his route and shut him down, that can't happen when he's such a relied upon guy.

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Old 01-11-2012, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) View Post
Marshall isn't a "possession" guy, at least he wasn't in Denver. He's not the fastest guy, but that doesn't make him a possession receiver. He had tons of plays in Denver that were at least as impressive athletically as DT's last week.



Specifically at 0:25 is the play that most sticks in my mind. Then there was the GW TD against the Cowboys in his last year in Denver. The Denver version of Brandon Marshall was an ELITE receiver, as good as anyone now not named Calvin, Larry or Andre.
Marshall has really declined since his days in Denver.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Marshall isn't a "possession" guy, at least he wasn't in Denver. He's not the fastest guy, but that doesn't make him a possession receiver. He had tons of plays in Denver that were at least as impressive athletically as DT's last week.



Specifically at 0:25 is the play that most sticks in my mind. Then there was the GW TD against the Cowboys in his last year in Denver. The Denver version of Brandon Marshall was an ELITE receiver, as good as anyone now not named Calvin, Larry or Andre.
I disagree completely. Every time I watched Marshall, even in the Denver days, I never really came away thinking he was super explosive. Nothing in that video changes my mind either. He's an athletic guy, and being a more of possession receiver doesn't make him a bad player(although I think he's fairly overrated at this point), but I don't see a guy who was ever as explosive as the two guys we're talking about.

Statistics are a dirty way to make an argument, but if you run 4.57 and average like 12 yards a catch for your career, you are what you are.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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I love Thomas, but at this point he's got a lot of learning to do. He's got the athletic ability but he's so far behind on the route precision that will allow his athletic ability to shine. He's got the deep route covered, and everyone saw his speed on display in a big way on that 80 yard touchdown.

The difference to me is that Julio just has a gear that BeyBey doesn't have. Not only is he a better route runner, and more physical, he's faster too. He may not have shown it on a broken foot with a 4.39 @ the combine, but watching him pull away from defenders vs watching BeyBey slightly pull away. It's just totally different realm of elite speed.

Julio to me at this point has already surpassed where Thomas is, and he has a higher ceiling as well. I love the big play ability of both guys, and I think that Thomas can develop into a nice #2 WR in the NFL, I don't ever see him being that #1 type guy, which I think Julio has already started to become in Atlanta. He hasn't eliminated Roddy, but given a full offseason and him staying healthy, I think he'll end up being the better ATL WR.
I agree with everything here except Jones' speed being better than Thomas'. From memory I remember what plays you are talking about, but I don't remember the defensive backs that Jones pulled away from. DT was being chased down by some of the fastest DBs in the NFL right now on that 80 yard run. At best, I would say their speed is equal, but I don't think Jones is faster than DT.

I also don't get why everyone is already so quick to calling Jones a top 5 WR. I mean...it's obvious that Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, and Andre Johnson take the top 3...and there are many WRs that are arguable for the last 2 spots in the top 5. Not saying I can't see Green and Jones both being top 5, I just think people should stop rushing to conclusions so quickly after half a season, considering Jones missed a lot of games and disappeared for some.

That's another thing I want to ask. Talent-wise there aren't many knocks on DT except for his drops and his route running. However, Jones drops a lot of the same passes and they both have a history in dropping passes in clutch moments. DT's route running can be blamed on the GT system, but it's probably the easiest thing to improve for a WR in the NFL...people had the same "poor route running" comments on Calvin Johnson when he came out. Injury-wise, Jones has just been as "injury prone" as Thomas. DT has just been unlucky and he's clearly made a full recovery from his injuries. The biggest knock on Jones that I can see is that he disappears for some games. I watch the games and I'm not sure if he just hasn't acclimated to the NFL completely yet or if he doesn't run with a high motor. It seems as if he's running his route, just because he's suppose to run his route, not to get open and block out the DB. I can see why people rank Julio higher...he's had more success earlier in his career.

My point is, Julio Jones had a great WR across from him, a good QB, and overall a better offensive team surrounding him than Thomas. The week Thomas finally came back was when Tebow was just starting to take over the offense. They both needed time to acclimate with the system and to each other, and it has really shown at the end of the season how much more in tune they are with each other. While I don't like Tebow as a QB, I have to admit that he's been improving a bit, those throws in the wild card game were spot on for Thomas, but Thomas also showed his ability to burn a very fast/pro-bowl caliber CB, track balls, and catch with his hands. I also think people need to consider that Thomas is basically having his rookie season with a new offensive scheme and a new QB with a completely different skill set than before, and he didn't have an off-season with Tebow.

Basically, I think Jones and Thomas are very similar players and their success can be very similar. I see that Jones is currently the more complete WR with the better team surrounding him, which makes him the safer choice for success. But Thomas only needs to improve his route running and have a full off-season with Tebow, or get a real QB, to reach where Jones is at, which I think is very possible.

I don't know...I just think he's a dark horse for a breakout season next year and that people aren't giving credit where credit is due. And this is coming from a huge Raiders fan.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Marshall has really declined since his days in Denver.
He's still an 80 reception guy, too, which is crazy. But yeah, he's nowhere near the game breaker he was in Denver. You could almost think it's just a side effect of him not being with Cutler anymore, but he actually probably had his best year statistically with Orton. Thomas though has miles upon miles to go before he's half as good as Denver Brandon Marshall. Was a circus catch machine and a huge play just waiting to happen.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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I agree with everything here except Jones' speed being better than Thomas'. From memory I remember what plays you are talking about, but I don't remember the defensive backs that Jones pulled away from. DT was being chased down by some of the fastest DBs in the NFL right now on that 80 yard run. At best, I would say their speed is equal, but I don't think Jones is faster than DT.
I call BS. Ike Taylor and Mundy are some of the fastest DBs in the NFL?
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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He's still an 80 reception guy, too, which is crazy. But yeah, he's nowhere near the game breaker he was in Denver. You could almost think it's just a side effect of him not being with Cutler anymore, but he actually probably had his best year statistically with Orton. Thomas though has miles upon miles to go before he's half as good as Denver Brandon Marshall. Was a circus catch machine and a huge play just waiting to happen.
As a Denver fan watching Cutler and Marshall regress makes me feel a lot better about not having these attitudes on our roster. I take a lot more pride in my team knowing they have a team mentality rather than a selfish one.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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You had a lot to say there, but I can verify that on multiple occasions that Julio pulled away from DBs that were just as fast as a guy like Taylor, who is not one of the fastest DBs in the NFL by any stretch of the imagination. Julio showed his speed not only on his 80 yard touchdown catch, but on those crossing routes where he out runs 3 different DBs with angles on that play.

Speed wise I know in shorts they're similar, but carrying pads, I'd easily take Jones over DT for speed.

I'm not speaking for others when I say this, but when I speak of them as top 5 WRs, I'm talking about once they've reached their potential, they are not there yet. They have a top 5 WR skillset, but still have a lot of time to prove it and do it.

DT is good, and I like him, but in my opinion he's not even in consideration to be a top 5 WR when compared to guys who are up and coming in his age range, To me it's clearly AJ and Julio having 2 of those future spots locked up, but I don't think Calvin will be knocked off that #1 spot for quite some time, he makes a decent QB look like a great talent.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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I call BS. Ike Taylor and Mundy are some of the fastest DBs in the NFL?
The closest guys to him were Taylor and Mundy. Taylor is fast, Mundy is probably average. But he didn't give any other DB in that backfield a chance to even slightly catch up, even very quick/fast guys like Polamalu. He broke away from Ike Taylor easily. He also wasn't very open to begin with, he just blocked out Ike Taylor and Tebow threw it where Mundy couldn't get it. He also had stiff arms/attempted arm tackles on him during that run and that slows you down considerably. Considering he's not even a year removed from his achilles injury and it was still nagging him only a few months ago, I think people are underrating his speed.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Something always was off about Marshall to me (and not the obvious, his brain).

It's weird, he's one guy that seemed like he made it look more difficult than he was. The most spectacular low YPC and low TD guy(relative to elites) ever....

Good receiver, never as explosive as some thought.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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It should be no question Julio is, was, and always will be the better receiver. I'm just glad DT has come out, and when healthy(ugh) is a game changer. I had him pegged as a bust after his injury plagued first year.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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You had a lot to say there, but I can verify that on multiple occasions that Julio pulled away from DBs that were just as fast as a guy like Taylor, who is not one of the fastest DBs in the NFL by any stretch of the imagination. Julio showed his speed not only on his 80 yard touchdown catch, but on those crossing routes where he out runs 3 different DBs with angles on that play.

Speed wise I know in shorts they're similar, but carrying pads, I'd easily take Jones over DT for speed.

I'm not speaking for others when I say this, but when I speak of them as top 5 WRs, I'm talking about once they've reached their potential, they are not there yet. They have a top 5 WR skillset, but still have a lot of time to prove it and do it.

DT is good, and I like him, but in my opinion he's not even in consideration to be a top 5 WR when compared to guys who are up and coming in his age range, To me it's clearly AJ and Julio having 2 of those future spots locked up, but I don't think Calvin will be knocked off that #1 spot for quite some time, he makes a decent QB look like a great talent.
Personally, I think Taylor is quite fast, what makes it seem like he isn't is his hips aren't very fluid so when he turns he slows down considerably. But I agree with everything else you said. I think Green and Jones both have a higher ceiling than DT, but everyone is making DT's ceiling seem like it's at above average at best, when I think he has top 10 talent if he improves his route running, stops getting injured, and has a QB instead of a FB throwing to him.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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I disagree completely. Every time I watched Marshall, even in the Denver days, I never really came away thinking he was super explosive. Nothing in that video changes my mind either. He's an athletic guy, and being a more of possession receiver doesn't make him a bad player(although I think he's fairly overrated at this point), but I don't see a guy who was ever as explosive as the two guys we're talking about.

Statistics are a dirty way to make an argument, but if you run 4.57 and average like 12 yards a catch for your career, you are what you are.
During his Denver career, he was able to get open deep when they went to him, but most of the time, he ran underneath routes. He was a lock 100 receptions, and any time you're thrown to that often, it's going to drive your average down(unless you're Calvin Johnson). And I really don't care how explosive DT is in shorts on a track, Brandon Marshall was every bit as explosive on the field. You can't rack up as many YAC as he did without being able to distance yourself from defenders. Even when he broke tackles to get those yards, he still ran away from the ones who didn't get him.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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During his Denver career, he was able to get open deep when they went to him, but most of the time, he ran underneath routes. He was a lock 100 receptions, and any time you're thrown to that often, it's going to drive your average down(unless you're Calvin Johnson). And I really don't care how explosive DT is in shorts on a track, Brandon Marshall was every bit as explosive on the field. You can't rack up as many YAC as he did without being able to distance yourself from defenders. Even when he broke tackles to get those yards, he still ran away from the ones who didn't get him.
I feel like he's basing his assessment off of Marshall's play now with the Dolphins. If that is the case, then I agree, he is not as explosive as he once was. Watching his highlight from Denver, and watching him now in Miami feels like watching 2 different players as far as explosiveness.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Something always was off about Marshall to me (and not the obvious, his brain).

It's weird, he's one guy that seemed like he made it look more difficult than he was. The most spectacular low YPC and low TD guy(relative to elites) ever....

Good receiver, never as explosive as some thought.
The low TD thing was something that really plagued the whole team. All the Denver fans can tell you about how bad the playcalling was in the red zone under Mike Shanahan. It was weird to have one of the best offenses yardage wise that just stagnated inside the 20. The year Shanahan left, even working with an inferior QB in Orton, he was able to top 10 TDs for the first(and only, so far) time in his career. I'll definitely concede the point that he was never on the very top tier, where Andre, Fitz and Megatron are now, but he was just below.

I still think his YPC was pushed down just based on how he was utilized. He was the go to guy, and the safety valve, and had a lot of hitches run for him. There are plenty of instances of him getting open deep for scores, he just ran shorter high percentage routes because he was capable of turning those easy completions into larger gains, which he often did. Even being really pass heavy those years, even with a Jay Cutler, the offense wasn't really that vertical.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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I think people are forgetting how terrible Cutler was in the redzone early in his career. He had like double digit end/redzone picks or something when he was in Denver, and because Marshall dropped quite a few redzone touchdown passes this year they think that its always been that way.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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The closest guys to him were Taylor and Mundy. Taylor is fast, Mundy is probably average. But he didn't give any other DB in that backfield a chance to even slightly catch up, even very quick/fast guys like Polamalu. He broke away from Ike Taylor easily. He also wasn't very open to begin with, he just blocked out Ike Taylor and Tebow threw it where Mundy couldn't get it. He also had stiff arms/attempted arm tackles on him during that run and that slows you down considerably. Considering he's not even a year removed from his achilles injury and it was still nagging him only a few months ago, I think people are underrating his speed.
Taylor is fast in Madden, he's not fast on the field. Sorry, he's just not.

You wanna talk about slowing down, the stiff arm actually sped him up by pushing off the other guy and it boosted his speed. Did he let him catch up, no, but he didn't really pull away. Watch Julio's touchdowns, he doesn't just pull away, he absolutely devastates the defenders to the point that when he shows them his heels they can't even continue. When I see a guy pull away like Julio did on several plays this year, where he's pulling away by yards instead of feet, it's just a different level.

It's not that DT isn't fast, he is, and he's very fast out of pads. But sometimes it doesn't translate, and that's where someone like Julio stands out. He carries his pads as if they're just part of him and doesn't lose speed in pads, where some drop a full tenth or more, Julio seems to play as fast as his timed speed.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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During his Denver career, he was able to get open deep when they went to him, but most of the time, he ran underneath routes. He was a lock 100 receptions, and any time you're thrown to that often, it's going to drive your average down(unless you're Calvin Johnson). And I really don't care how explosive DT is in shorts on a track, Brandon Marshall was every bit as explosive on the field. You can't rack up as many YAC as he did without being able to distance yourself from defenders. Even when he broke tackles to get those yards, he still ran away from the ones who didn't get him.
...which makes him more of a possession receiver. He was/is better at working underneath and picking up yards after the catch because of his size and how tough he is to tackle in the open field.

You're making it out like it's a dirty word. It really isn't. I'm just going to have to flat out disagree with him being explosive too. I don't worry about Brandon Marshall burning me deep at all and his statistics reflect that....nor does the film. I would agree with you about the way he was utilized if it changed when he went to Miami. It really hasn't. His numbers are better, but Miami sending him down the field has really exposed the fact that his hands run really hot and cold too.


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Something always was off about Marshall to me (and not the obvious, his brain).

It's weird, he's one guy that seemed like he made it look more difficult than he was. The most spectacular low YPC and low TD guy(relative to elites) ever....

Good receiver, never as explosive as some thought.
Yeah, this is basically where I am too. Good player, but I wouldn't have ever called him an elite receiver, even when he was putting up numbers.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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im taking julio every single time and its not even remotely close. Julio was one of the best non calvin WR prospect ive ever seen (AJ too) both easily had top 5 grades....thomas was the first WR taken just because Dez was an ass.

He'll never be anything close to what julio will be imo, even though he made ike taylor look like a fool, im not buying into it
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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The low TD thing was something that really plagued the whole team. All the Denver fans can tell you about how bad the playcalling was in the red zone under Mike Shanahan. It was weird to have one of the best offenses yardage wise that just stagnated inside the 20. The year Shanahan left, even working with an inferior QB in Orton, he was able to top 10 TDs for the first(and only, so far) time in his career. I'll definitely concede the point that he was never on the very top tier, where Andre, Fitz and Megatron are now, but he was just below.

I still think his YPC was pushed down just based on how he was utilized. He was the go to guy, and the safety valve, and had a lot of hitches run for him. There are plenty of instances of him getting open deep for scores, he just ran shorter high percentage routes because he was capable of turning those easy completions into larger gains, which he often did. Even being really pass heavy those years, even with a Jay Cutler, the offense wasn't really that vertical.
IMO the biggest problem with Marshall in the vertical game during his time in Denver is that he was never particularly great catching the ball over his shoulder. Great hands facing the ball (short and intermediate routes), but nowhere near as good as the elite guys when running with it. With guys like Moss, Megatron, etc. if they are going deep in single coverage you always throw it and you always expect they will come down with it. I never felt that way with Marshall.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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"Despite his inexperience and lack of consistent play in college,[2] the Pittsburgh Steelers selected Taylor in the fourth round (125th overall) in the 2003 NFL Draft.[6] The selection was made based primarily on Taylor's rare combination of size and speed leading up to the draft, he was timed as fast as 4.18 seconds in the 40-yard dash. However, most NFL coaches and general managers still failed to see his potential.[3][5]"


Thomas DUSTED a player that ran a 4.18 at one point.. i dont care if he is a little older, Taylor was sprinter speed fast
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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"Despite his inexperience and lack of consistent play in college,[2] the Pittsburgh Steelers selected Taylor in the fourth round (125th overall) in the 2003 NFL Draft.[6] The selection was made based primarily on Taylor's rare combination of size and speed leading up to the draft, he was timed as fast as 4.18 seconds in the 40-yard dash. However, most NFL coaches and general managers still failed to see his potential.[3][5]"


Thomas DUSTED a player that ran a 4.18 at one point.. i dont care if he is a little older, Taylor was sprinter speed fast
Please just stop. Ike Taylor is not Deion Sanders. He is not that fast.

I hope that was simple enough for you.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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"Despite his inexperience and lack of consistent play in college,[2] the Pittsburgh Steelers selected Taylor in the fourth round (125th overall) in the 2003 NFL Draft.[6] The selection was made based primarily on Taylor's rare combination of size and speed leading up to the draft, he was timed as fast as 4.18 seconds in the 40-yard dash. However, most NFL coaches and general managers still failed to see his potential.[3][5]"


Thomas DUSTED a player that ran a 4.18 at one point.. i dont care if he is a little older, Taylor was sprinter speed fast
Not sure if srs...
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Taylor is fast as hell.

Or he was, at one point.

Either way, Demaryius Thomas is definitely a top-notch athlete.
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