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Old 01-23-2012, 02:43 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.
Except that quote that you want would contradict what I'm saying. Let me repeat myself. "No one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning it as much as some do."

As for your second point it's still a foolish way to compare QBs when what Peyton's asked to do to get the Colts into the playoffs is drastically different from what Eli's been asked to do every season before this one. That's why you can't just compare their playoff performances and say Eli's been the better QB.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Except that quote that you want would contradict what I'm saying. Let me repeat myself. "No one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning it as much as some do."

As for your second point it's still a foolish way to compare QBs when what Peyton's asked to do to get the Colts into the playoffs is drastically different from what Eli's been asked to do every season before this one. That's why you can't just compare their playoff performances and say Eli's been the better QB.
Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them anyway you want, it is OK by me.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them any way you want, it is OK by me.
So you're just intentionally choosing to be stupid and ignorant at this point?
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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This topic makes me :D

Best SB matchup ever for an anti-Peyton troll like myself.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them any way you want, it is OK by me.
Well the way you evaluate QBs is awful.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.
I think people are starting to overrate Eli now. Rarely ever is he talked about a top 4 or 5 QB in the NFl and now if he wins a second Superbowl he is a HOFer? This is the same problem I have with people putting Ben R in the Hall of Fame. Just because you are a top ten 10-15 QB and are on a good team that wins the Superbowl does not make you a Hall of Famer. I know someone gonna mention a player like Terry Bradshaw but players like that were horrible elections based more on team success then the player being a great player.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I think people are starting to overrate Eli now. Rarely ever is he talked about a top 4 or 5 QB in the NFl and now if he wins a second Superbowl he is a HOFer? This is the same problem I have with people putting Ben R in the Hall of Fame. Just because you are a top ten 10-15 QB and are on a good team that wins the Superbowl does not make you a Hall of Famer. I know someone gonna mention a player like Terry Bradshaw but players like that were horrible elections based more on team success then the player being a great player.
Such an awesome team that they didn't win their division last year and barely won it this year, right?

One of the league's worst teams at running the ball and stopping the opponent on 3rd down. Such an awesome team he's on.

I know, I know. We can't call Eli elite - what would that do to the Rivers fanboys? Now that is a REAL elite QB.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.
This isn't some tall tale here...

have you seen the team this year without him?

Have you seen how abysmal the OL has been during his tenure?

Have you seen how low the defense ranks every year with the exception of two DEs who essentially put up gaudy stat #s by not factoring into any kind of run support?

Have you seen that without him the WR corps is pretty terrible?

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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
The point being that it is more difficult for a QB to do this with a **** team around him, meanwhile it can be very easy for a **** QB to do it with a good team. See Dilfer, see Bradshaw, see Big Ben (not that they are all **** QBs but you get the point... wel maybe not YOU)

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Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network
you've said all that you need to say.


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that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them anyway you want, it is OK by me.
It most certainly is not.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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This isn't some tall tale here...

have you seen the team this year without him?

Have you seen how abysmal the OL has been during his tenure?

Have you seen how low the defense ranks every year with the exception of two DEs who essentially put up gaudy stat #s by not factoring into any kind of run support?

Have you seen that without him the WR corps is pretty terrible?
I've made the point before, but the dropoff this year from the Colts was really no different in terms of win differential as the year the Patriots lost Brady. And, make no mistake, if the Giants lost Eli they'd probably be around 7-8 wins worse, too.

BTW, the o-line in Indy was really good until Tarik Glenn retired.



Quote:
The point being that it is more difficult for a QB to do this with a **** team around him, meanwhile it can be very easy for a **** QB to do it with a good team. See Dilfer, see Bradshaw, see Big Ben (not that they are all **** QBs but you get the point... wel maybe not YOU)



you've said all that you need to say.




It most certainly is not.
The HOF has actually made it pretty clear that playoff success is their most important criteria for induction. As it should be. ****'s harder in the playoffs. You ball out on the big stage, it's worth more.

When you're comparing two elite players, why should postseason success not be a factor?

I just don't know what more you could ask from Eli. He's got a coach who stresses balance - even when the running game isn't working. He does everything at the LOS - changing runs, protections, pass routes, etc. He's made CLEAR AND CONSISTENT progression every single season in his career. Every year, he comes back and does something else better.

:shrug:

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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I've made the point before, but the dropoff this year from the Colts was really no different in terms of win differential as the year the Patriots lost Brady. And, make no mistake, if the Giants lost Eli they'd probably be around 7-8 wins worse, too.
I think the tools are their if they brought in a FA for the year. The team would be competitive.

Quote:
BTW, the o-line in Indy was really good until Tarik Glenn retired.
Glenn and Saturday were about the only bright points on that OL. Peyton making the right protection calls has pretty much saved them (I also want to give credit to Saturday here)


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The HOF has actually made it pretty clear that playoff success is their most important criteria for induction. As it should be. ****'s harder in the playoffs. You ball out on the big stage, it's worth more.
I think Pro's as he put it think differently and it certainly isn't the only factor that goes into HoF selection

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When you're comparing two elite players, why should postseason success not be a factor?
It should be but you still have to look at context.

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I just don't know what more you could ask from Eli. He's got a coach who stresses balance - even when the running game isn't working. He does everything at the LOS - changing runs, protections, pass routes, etc. He's made CLEAR AND CONSISTENT progression every single season in his career. Every year, he comes back and does something else better.

:shrug:
I'm not trying to knock Eli, he is coming into his own, but I think your talking possible HoF QB versus a guy who deserves to be in the conversation of top all time QBs (top 5, top 10, GOAT, take your pick)
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Another thought:

I ask those that think SBs are the biggest factor; are you saying that Peyton shouldn't be in the HoF?

If you say he shouldn't, your an idiot and you need not read further.

If you say he should regardless; then does the fact that he doesn't have the SBs yet will be a HoF not speak to his greatness?

Then ask yourself would Eli be in if it weren't for the SBs?

So who is the better QB? I think we all know the answer...
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Another thought:

I ask those that think SBs are the biggest factor; are you saying that Peyton shouldn't be in the HoF?
Strawman. Nobody is making the Trent Dilfer argument. We're saying that when comparing elite players' careers, postseason success absolutely factors in.

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If you say he shouldn't, your an idiot and you need not read further.
Nobody is saying that. Peyton's regular season production and consistency has been transcendent.

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If you say he should regardless; then does the fact that he doesn't have the SBs yet will be a HoF not speak to his greatness?
Of course it does. Again, nobody is saying that Peyton Manning isn't an all-time great QB.

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Then ask yourself would Eli be in if it weren't for the SBs?
Begging the question.

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So who is the better QB? I think we all know the answer...
Define "better."

This is a difficult discussion because we cannot judge either's career in it's entirety yet.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady postseason QB rating - 85.5
Eli Manning postseason QB rating - 87.5
Peyton Manning postseason QB rating - 87.6
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady postseason QB rating - 85.5
Eli Manning postseason QB rating - 87.5
Peyton Manning postseason QB rating - 87.6
Vinny Testaverde QB rating- 81.0
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady postseason QB rating - 85.5
Eli Manning postseason QB rating - 87.5
Peyton Manning postseason QB rating - 87.6
Peyton's is 88.4

http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../gamelog/post/

Eli is 87.5 and Brady 87.6 going into the Super Bowl.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
Peyton's is 88.4

http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../gamelog/post/

Eli is 87.5 and Brady 87.6 going into the Super Bowl.
Not sure why I got a different number from http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0_playoffs.htm
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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They are probably different because one set is all time and the other is just this season?
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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Such an awesome team that they didn't win their division last year and barely won it this year, right?

One of the league's worst teams at running the ball and stopping the opponent on 3rd down. Such an awesome team he's on.

I know, I know. We can't call Eli elite - what would that do to the Rivers fanboys? Now that is a REAL elite QB.
Yeah because Eli's 16 interceptions this year and 25 last year really helped his team so much?I guess to you it is all the team Eli was a saint. I never said he was not elite I said he was not a HOFer.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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From sheer talent/statistical standpoint Eli isn't on his brother's level. Peyton is arguably the greatest passer of all-time and throughout his tenure in Indianapolis their success as a team has been predicated on the passing game. He's broken passing records and has lit up scoreboards for a decade.

Peyton did have very talented receivers (Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Pollard) and a solid run game, but if their passing game failed the team failed. He never had a dominant defense and one of the few times that side of the ball stepped up in the postseason he won a Super Bowl. The Colts were never a consistently balanced team, which is why they failed so many times in the playoffs.

However, factoring in wins, postseason success, clutch play, etc Eli is on his brother's level and is elite. Eli is a different style of QB. He's an opportunistic player that takes advantage of clutch situations. When his defense puts him in position to score he usually comes through. When his team is trailing and needs a big play he usually comes through. When it's time to put a game away he usually comes through.

Despite Eli's numbers this year I don't hold him in the same league as Brees, Rodgers, Peyton and Brady in terms of pure passers. The Giants started their hot streak at the end of the season when the defense turned a 180. They are dangerous because of their balanced attack in all 3 phases. Granted, Eli didn't have very good OL play this year and his run game was inconsistent.

I don't believe Eli's strength is carrying an offense every week to victory. I believe Eli's strength is taking advantage of big opportunities. He understands what his role is and executes it. He knows that right now his defense is on a roll and he doesn't put his team in bad situations by turning the ball over.

He's a very intelligent QB that knows how to manage a game and pick his spots to attack. I don't believe that saying he's an opportunistic is a shot against him. I believe it's a big compliment. The Giants in 2006 and the Giants this postseason are the true definition of a team. They are balanced and they pick each other up.

When Eli received his big extension a couple years ago I ripped him for not being an elite QB on this board. I said that he wasn't a guy who could carry a team every week and that was my reasoning.

I'm here to eat some crow after what I've seen in the playoffs. I know Giant fans have stood up for him time and time again, but I now understand what they were saying and agree with them.

Eli is an elite QB in his own right. He may be a little different than the big statistical QB's, but that shouldn't be counted against him. When the chips are down and a play needs to be made Eli is a guy you can give the ball to and have confidence that he'll deliver.

Every QB needs help in order to win. We saw what happened to the one-dimensional Packers this year. We've seen what has happened to the Saints. We saw what happened to the 49ers in the playoffs when their offense couldn't make a play in crunch time.

The great teams achieve some sort of balance. It's not always 50/50, but what impresses me about the Giants is that they just find a way to win. On Sunday it was the Special Teams that made two huge plays, one of which lead to the winning field goal.

Eli is a leader and he is a franchise QB. He may not be the most efficient QB and he may not light up a scoreboard, but the guy just wins games. Does he need some help? Sure, but Rodgers and Brees weren't able to carry their teams to victory in the playoffs either. It's a team game and there's no doubt that if I was need of a QB to build around Eli would be on the top of my list.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Yeah because Eli's 16 interceptions this year and 25 last year really helped his team so much?I guess to you it is all the team Eli was a saint. I never said he was not elite I said he was not a HOFer.
It could be argued that the only reason the Giants stayed afloat was because of Eli. Their defense was **** for most of the year, his OL play was inconsistent and he really didn't have a consistent run game to rely on.

Despite all this pressure he managed to keep his INT's down and increase his TD's. He also gave his team a chance to get into the playoffs.

He does have a pretty damn good set of receivers, but Eli was the most valuable piece to that team this year.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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Eli has arguably the most talented group of receivers in the NFL (Excluding TE, of course). Nicks, Cruz and Manningham is disgustingly good. Not to mention, Bradshaw out of the backfield isn't too shabby either.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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[quote=sweetness34;2840216]From sheer talent/statistical standpoint Eli isn't on his brother's level. Peyton is arguably the greatest passer of all-time and throughout his tenure in Indianapolis their success as a team has been predicated on the passing game. He's broken passing records and has lit up scoreboards for a decade.

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This is a myth, the rules today favour the passing game so much that any records set over the last decade in passing are rather meaningless when compared to previous generations. Never mind the fact that they also used to play a 12 game schedule.
Peyton did have very talented receivers (Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Pollard) and a solid run game, but if their passing game failed the team failed. He never had a dominant defense and one of the few times that side of the ball stepped up in the postseason he won a Super Bowl. The Colts were never a consistently balanced team, which is why they failed so many times in the playoffs.

This is another myth, New England, New Orleans, the Giants, and Green Bay were among the worst defenses in the NFL, it is pretty rare when one team can dominate on both sides of the ball.
The Colts stunk this year because Peyton was injured but were already showing a real decline under the HCing of Caldwell so it came as no surprise that they tanked with him as their HC.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Eli has arguably the most talented group of receivers in the NFL (Excluding TE, of course). Nicks, Cruz and Manningham is disgustingly good. Not to mention, Bradshaw out of the backfield isn't too shabby either.
Yeah, but are they good because Eli is throwing them the ball and can thread a needle. Tom Brady's WR's have also generally flopped when they go to another team, so is it the QB who makes the receivers or the receivers who make the QB. Just a thought.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Eli has arguably the most talented group of receivers in the NFL (Excluding TE, of course). Nicks, Cruz and Manningham is disgustingly good. Not to mention, Bradshaw out of the backfield isn't too shabby either.
We always have turnover though. Funny how now it's disgustingly good, when prior to season it was a big issue. No Steve Smith AND no Kevin Boss meant bad news.

The truth is.. players come and go, but 1 player is constant and that's Eli. Accorsi had a boner for Eli when he scouted him at Ole Miss, and saw how he could make everyone else around him better.

Just look at the turner over offensively.


Burress
Toomer
Smith
Boss
Shockey
Hedgecock
Tiki
Shaun O'hara
Rich S. LG


Now we are back at the super bowl with a totally different Wr corps. We have a lot of change, and basically 1 guy has been the constant fixture. And the biggest thing is for a team that is a running team and likes to control the TOP, we stunk this year. And by stunk, I mean dead last in the NFL. On top of that we had an idiot DC, who would put us behind the 8 ball every game. So now basically the offensively game plan goes out the window and we have to put the whole game on Eli's shoulder.

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Old 01-25-2012, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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We always have turnover though. Funny how now it's disgustingly good, when prior to season it was a big issue. No Steve Smith AND no Kevin Boss meant bad news.

The truth is.. players come and go, but 1 player is constant and that's Eli. Accorsi had a boner for Eli when he scouted him at Ole Miss, and saw how he could make everyone else around him better.

Just look at the turner over offensively.


Burress
Toomer
Smith
Boss
Shockey
Hedgecock
Tiki
Shaun O'hara
Rich S. LG


Now we are back at the super bowl with a totally different Wr corps. We have a lot of change, and basically 1 guy has been the constant fixture. And the biggest thing is for a team that is a running team and likes to control the TOP, we stunk this year. And by stunk, I mean dead last in the NFL. On top of that we had an idiot DC, who would put us behind the 8 ball every game. So now basically the offensively game plan goes out the window and we have to put the whole game on Eli's shoulder.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It's funny how perception changes over the course of 6 months.
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