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Old 01-26-2012, 03:50 PM    (permalink
Dallas357
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Default If the Giants win, Is Tom Coughlin a HOF coach?

Absolutely. Best back against the wall coach of all time.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Herm Edwards and Mark S from espn were talking about this. If he wins, another superbowl, TC is def. a HOFer. He is tied with Tuna in NY in superbowls, and he has no intent of leaving for another job. So he basically doesn't have the adult ADHD like tuna had in job jumping. If TC wins, he is 100% a HOFer especially coaching in NY.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Not to mention, he did a pretty damn incredible job with an expansion team. He just got overextended in JAX, especially towards the end, where he was handling GM and playcalling duties as well.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Maybe. He is at least up there with Shanahan and Holmgren if he gets it done. But you then look at guys like Tom Flores or Jimmy Johnson who also has two Super Bowls, and htey hasn't been close to getting in.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Really, though, can you imagine being a fly on the wall of a coaches meeting for the Parcells Giants in the late 80s/early 90s?

Parcells is the boss, Belichick the DC, Coughlin the WR coach, Crennel the ST coach, and Al Groh the LBs coach.

Ridiculous.

Also, not enough is made over how good Coughlin is at developing quality WRs.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy Johnson,Holmgren and Tom Coughlin( if he wins) should be in the HOF, Shanahan is so overrated.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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No. Just no.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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lol remember when people thought jeff fisher was a better coach. You know, with his 6 winning seasons out of 17! that was hilarious
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Herm Edwards and Mark S from espn were talking about this. If he wins, another superbowl, TC is def. a HOFer. He is tied with Tuna in NY in superbowls, and he has no intent of leaving for another job. So he basically doesn't have the adult ADHD like tuna had in job jumping. If TC wins, he is 100% a HOFer especially coaching in NY.
Mr Coughlin might be tied with Mr Parcells for Super Bowls, but Coughlin isn't even in the same class as Parcells. Everyone knows Parcells built multiple teams into powerhouses, before being fired and having someone else basically destroy his work.

I don't really know what constitutes a Hall of Fame coach. My gut says, if the metric is the same as a player, he's not a first ballot HoFer, but he's going to probably get in.
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Coughlin's teams are always very strange. The Giants have played down to their competition in the regular season for a number of years now, but turn it on in the playoffs. This team was one play from sitting at home and Coughlin being fired this year (Tony Romo 4th quarter pass, blocked kick), and now they're in the Super Bowl.
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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No. Just no.
I love the brilliant arguments and reasons brought up. Really a well thought out post full of sound reasoning and logic
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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Coughlin's teams are always very strange. The Giants have played down to their competition in the regular season for a number of years now, but turn it on in the playoffs. This team was one play from sitting at home and Coughlin being fired this year (Tony Romo 4th quarter pass, blocked kick), and now they're in the Super Bowl.

thats not a coughlin thing, thats a giants in general thing. My grandpa always said they play half a game and watch half a game and you just gotta hope they do enough in their one half to squeak one out. Really, theyve been that way for as long as i can remember, brutally and randomly inconsistent, all the way back to when we had the incredibly evil kerry collins at qb. **** him.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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He's a good coach, but "good" doesn't get you in the Hall of Fame. Here are the coaches who actually are in the HoF:

George Allen 1966-1977
Paul Brown 1946-1962
Guy Chamberlin # 1922-1927
Jimmy Conzelman # 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48
Weeb Ewbank 1954-1973
Ray Flaherty # 1936-1949
Joe Gibbs 1981-1992
Sid Gillman 1955-1969, 1971-1974
Bud Grant 1967-1983, 1985
George Halas # 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67
Earl (Curly) Lambeau # 1919-1953
Tom Landry 1960-1988
Marv Levy 1978-1982, 1986-1997
Vince Lombardi 1959-1967, 1969
John Madden 1969-1978
Earle (Greasy) Neale 1941-1950
Chuck Noll 1969-1991
Steve Owen # 1930-1953
Don Shula 1963-1995
Hank Stram 1960-1974, 1976-1977
Bill Walsh 1979-1988

That list of HoF coaches is why Coughlin isn't getting in. Until this thread, nobody has ever even considered placing Coughlin in that elite group. The vast majority of HoF coaches have been guys who fundamentally changed the game during their era, which is something that Coughlin hasn't done.

So I sincerely apologize if I sound like a jerk, but RCAChainGang was right in saying: "No. Just no." I look at that list, and I would even go so far as to say "Hell no."

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WCH View Post
He's a good coach, but "good" doesn't get you in the Hall of Fame. Here are the coaches who actually are in the HoF:

George Allen 1966-1977
Paul Brown 1946-1962
Guy Chamberlin # 1922-1927
Jimmy Conzelman # 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48
Weeb Ewbank 1954-1973
Ray Flaherty # 1936-1949
Joe Gibbs 1981-1992
Sid Gillman 1955-1969, 1971-1974
Bud Grant 1967-1983, 1985
George Halas # 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67
Earl (Curly) Lambeau # 1919-1953
Tom Landry 1960-1988
Marv Levy 1978-1982, 1986-1997
Vince Lombardi 1959-1967, 1969
John Madden 1969-1978
Earle (Greasy) Neale 1941-1950
Chuck Noll 1969-1991
Steve Owen # 1930-1953
Don Shula 1963-1995
Hank Stram 1960-1974, 1976-1977
Bill Walsh 1979-1988

That list of HoF coaches is why Coughlin isn't getting in. Until this thread, nobody has ever even considered placing Coughlin in that elite group. The vast majority of HoF coaches have been guys who fundamentally changed the game during their era, which is something that Coughlin hasn't done.

So I sincerely apologize if I sound like a jerk, but RCAChainGang was right in saying: "No. Just no." I look at that list, and I would even go so far as to say "Hell no."
It depends on if you look at Madden as a "coach" or "contributor." Him getting into the HOF as a "coach" really lowered the bar, IMO.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****, I didnt realize that Don Shula was an NFL HC for that long. You would NEVER see that nowadays.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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No. He's a good coach, but not an all time great. 2 Super Bowls is a giant step, but shouldn't make a hall of fame lock. (Although 3 would be impossible to argue against)

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****, I didnt realize that Don Shula was an NFL HC for that long. You would NEVER see that nowadays.
Dude coached Johnny Unitas AND Dan Marino. Crazy.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Lightning doesn't strike twice often. If Coughlin lucked into these wins, I need to find out his favorite numbers and buy a lottery ticket.

Bellichick is likely a lock for the HoF, and if we're working under the assumption that the Giants win, then Coughlin will have beat him twice in the biggest game of their lives.
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:10 AM    (permalink
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It's not a matter of luck. Nobody is saying that. Coughlin is a good coach. He's in his second Super Bowl and he coached Jacksonville to the AFC Championship Game in their second year as a franchise.

He's a very good coach, but we're talking about an elite group where being "very good" isn't good enough (unless you're John Madden, which brings us to...)

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It depends on if you look at Madden as a "coach" or "contributor." Him getting into the HOF as a "coach" really lowered the bar, IMO.
I personally view him as a contributor, and I agree that him being a "coach" does lower the bar. He was one of the most important personalities in the game, and football wouldn't be as popular without him, but his coaching resume isn't on par with his HoF peers.

At a bare minimum, Tom Coughlin is not getting into the Hall of Fame until quite a few years after Jimmy Johnson gets in, and there's no serious talk of Johnson getting in. As somebody else mentioned, Tom Flores also has two Super Bowl victories, and nobody thinks he's ever getting in.

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Old 01-27-2012, 07:26 AM    (permalink
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Not yet, but TC is going to coach until death drags him away, kicking and screaming. So if he can win his second SB and add 5+ years of playoff wins to those SB wins and run with the Jaguars. He can join the list of guys that deserve to get in eventually. Offensively him and Gilbride have crafted a wonderful system if you've got the horses to run it, but he has been too loyal to co-ordinators, got over his head in the last years in Jacksonville and the inconsistencies of the giants will be held against him, although his giants have been more consistent than many giants squads that weren't coached by T, or Parcells.

Edit: sorry for any typoes, typing on my phone.
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Old 01-27-2012, 08:03 AM    (permalink
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I love the brilliant arguments and reasons brought up. Really a well thought out post full of sound reasoning and logic
I get that it's a thread with 'your' head coach as the topic but your post also lacks brilliant arguments and reasoning. Try not to be so sensitive that you wasted a half of a second of your life to read what he said, and maybe just maybe, bring up your perspective. I guess that's a lot less cool than being a dick though.

I'm not justifying his post in the least bit, I think it's post-whoring to be honest but I couldn't ignore the hypocrisy.

Honestly, what's the 'benchmark' to get in to the HOF as a coach? Coughlin has been very good but I wouldn't put him up there with the greatest of all time, which is essentially what the HOF is. Two Super Bowls as a QB would seem to do the trick, but two Super Bowls as a Head Coach seems to be worlds different. I think there's more credit to be given to how this team was built rather than how it was coached.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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the fun thing is, I don't think Coughlin's a HOF coach, even with a giants win next sunday. I just think people saying things without justifying them is annoying. it's a pet peeve of mine. you couldn't ignore the "hypocrisy" while I couldn't ignore the...I'm not sure what word to describe it....ignorance maybe? idk, but that's just how I saw it
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Mr Coughlin might be tied with Mr Parcells for Super Bowls, but Coughlin isn't even in the same class as Parcells. Everyone knows Parcells built multiple teams into powerhouses, before being fired and having someone else basically destroy his work.

I don't really know what constitutes a Hall of Fame coach. My gut says, if the metric is the same as a player, he's not a first ballot HoFer, but he's going to probably get in.
We are talking about a guy who overcame a lot more than Tuna and that reflects the different eras. Parcells can get away with being brutal to players. One example was calling Terry Glenn, "she", lol. He can be a pain in the butt to the media guys and call them out for stupid questions.

Coughlin since day 1 was hated when he was basically less hostile or abrasive than Parcells was. Players disliked that style since they came from Fasshole style country club atmosphere. He had to deal with guys like Shockey, Burress, AND Me-iki all under mining him and the players around the team.

I remember emailing Ralph V one beat writer, and they didn't like him because he made their job harder. Win a superbowl AND everything has changed.

I remember articles saying, coughlin was a bad hire. NO FREE AGENTS will ever come to play for us. Um, we signed Burress, Mckenzie, AP, Rolle, and so on.

It was Coughlin, Reid, Parcells and Gibbs when Coughlin was hired, and I remember reading, Coughlin will be the first to get fired.

If we somehow win this super bowl, he is without a doubt a HOFer and I think Giants fans may like Coughlin more than Parcells. I know I do! I loved the hire to begin with and I like him as a coach. Only negative I disliked was his coordinator hires. Other than that, he is a great, great coach.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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We are talking about a guy who overcame a lot more than Tuna and that reflects the different eras. Parcells can get away with being brutal to players. One example was calling Terry Glenn, "she", lol. He can be a pain in the butt to the media guys and call them out for stupid questions.

Coughlin since day 1 was hated when he was basically less hostile or abrasive than Parcells was. Players disliked that style since they came from Fasshole style country club atmosphere. He had to deal with guys like Shockey, Burress, AND Me-iki all under mining him and the players around the team.

I remember emailing Ralph V one beat writer, and they didn't like him because he made their job harder. Win a superbowl AND everything has changed.

I remember articles saying, coughlin was a bad hire. NO FREE AGENTS will ever come to play for us. Um, we signed Burress, Mckenzie, AP, Rolle, and so on.

It was Coughlin, Reid, Parcells and Gibbs when Coughlin was hired, and I remember reading, Coughlin will be the first to get fired.

If we somehow win this super bowl, he is without a doubt a HOFer and I think Giants fans may like Coughlin more than Parcells. I know I do! I loved the hire to begin with and I like him as a coach. Only negative I disliked was his coordinator hires. Other than that, he is a great, great coach.

he is not a great great coach. thats quite a stretch imo.

Look at the talent on this team for a second...there are some serious players here all over the O and D, yet we were 9-7? we fell apart to the redskins...twice? great coached teams dont get whacked by a ****** team twice in a possibly super bowl season.

i think hes a solid coach who is getting more credit than he deserves after getting more blame than he deserved before. fewell finally fixed his D f-ups and the team started rolling. The only thing i really think is great about coughlin is that he really has developed WR's pretty well as someone said earlier. not sure how much credit he gets for the rest.

overall, hes a hall of very good coaches with andy reid and maybe holmgren or someone like that but hes not a hall of fame guy the way bellichick is.
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Old 01-27-2012, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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he is not a great great coach. thats quite a stretch imo.

Look at the talent on this team for a second...there are some serious players here all over the O and D, yet we were 9-7? we fell apart to the redskins...twice? great coached teams dont get whacked by a ****** team twice in a possibly super bowl season.

i think hes a solid coach who is getting more credit than he deserves after getting more blame than he deserved before. fewell finally fixed his D f-ups and the team started rolling. The only thing i really think is great about coughlin is that he really has developed WR's pretty well as someone said earlier. not sure how much credit he gets for the rest.

overall, hes a hall of very good coaches with andy reid and maybe holmgren or someone like that but hes not a hall of fame guy the way bellichick is.
Coughlin's on a different level than Reid as he's a much better in game coach. He manages his timeouts very well, he has a great record in challenges, his teams have regularly made good halftime adjustments which has lead to many of our late game wins. He's an excellent coach who hasn't put together a hall of fame resume yet, but will soon.
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