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Old 02-06-2012, 12:08 AM    (permalink
PoopSandwich
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Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
Well that's silly. How much time do you have? I will start naming all the things that separate Elway from Manning. 5 superbowl appearances. 7 seasons with a QBR over 80, as opposed to 4 for eli. No help his entire career up until the age of 95. sacked 519 times to eli's 194 despite far superior release timing and mobility. Never had a pro-bowl receiver until his 10th year in shannon sharpe, never had a pro bowl WR tillthe emergence of rod smith in 1997, 2 years away from his retirement. All time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. 46 career 4thquarter comebacks to eli's 23. 64% career win percentage not including the playoffs to eli's 57% career win percentage. go home, troll. The reason my argument that eli isn't tier 1 or a HOF'er was so small in the first place is that eli has nothing to even talk about aside from 2 rings and 2 elite seasons.

perception and reality show that eli manning can't hold elway's jock, or rodgers (future HOFER, like Manning and Brady)

If manning can put together more than 2 90+ QBR seasons or another ring he's in. Jim Plunkett was practically ass, and to this date, he has 1 less 80+ QBR season than manning.

manning, unlike elway, has NOTHING that separates him from the pack of QB's that have won multiple superbowls. No longevity, just a clutch gene for 2 seasons.
Eli is 31, has two super bowls, and has put together one of the most clutch seasons in NFL history. You are using stats, not your eyes, this is where you fail.
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"If something happens, and it's the Cleveland Browns, I'm going to pour my heart out for the Dawg Pound and try to win a Super Bowl for Cleveland," he said. "I don't care if they've had 20 starting quarterbacks since 1999. I'm going to be the 21st and the guy that brought them the Super Bowl." - JFF
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by whatadai View Post
this is what makes me not call eli elite...

today i watched brady and was wowed by his throws and disappointed by his receivers.

today i watched eli and was disappointed by his throws and wowed by his receivers' abilities to still catch them.
Were we watching the same game? Eli made some terrific stick throws into tight windows that were perfectly placed. I don't recall a single play all game where his receiver bailed him out on a poor throw by making an amazing catch.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Big Ben is overrated as ****
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:09 AM    (permalink
Jimmy
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Originally Posted by DraftSavant View Post
Elway: 57% passer. 1.3 TD:INT ratio. Only 2 SBs.

Not elite.
Quote from earlier. elway brings stuff to the table besides 2 rings, eli does not.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
Well that's silly. How much time do you have? I will start naming all the things that separate Elway from Manning. 5 superbowl appearances. 7 seasons with a QBR over 80, as opposed to 4 for eli. No help his entire career up until the age of 95. sacked 519 times to eli's 194 despite far superior release timing and mobility. Never had a pro-bowl receiver until his 10th year in shannon sharpe, never had a pro bowl WR tillthe emergence of rod smith in 1997, 2 years away from his retirement. All time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. 46 career 4thquarter comebacks to eli's 23. 64% career win percentage not including the playoffs to eli's 57% career win percentage. go home, troll. The reason my argument that eli isn't tier 1 or a HOF'er was so small in the first place is that eli has nothing to even talk about aside from 2 rings and 2 elite seasons.

perception and reality show that eli manning can't hold elway's jock, or rodgers (future HOFER, like Manning and Brady)

If manning can put together more than 2 90+ QBR seasons or another ring he's in. Jim Plunkett was practically ass, and to this date, he has 1 less 80+ QBR season than manning.

manning, unlike elway, has NOTHING that separates him from the pack of QB's that have won multiple superbowls. No longevity, just a clutch gene for 2 seasons.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Eli is 31, has two super bowls, and has put together one of the most clutch seasons in NFL history. You are using stats, not your eyes, this is where you fail.
so did terrell davis. what else does eli offer. nobody has told me that yet.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Umm...both are going to the HOF...

And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.

Again, it's not really a question of if Eli will make it. He's pretty much a lock for the HOF now, it's a question of whether he deserves to make it. I won't argue that, bc quite frankly, his career isn't over yet, so we can't really say if he deserves it or not yet bc his final chapters have yet to be written.

But he's basically a lock to make the HOF at this point regardless of his future bc of the precedents set before him.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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NOT ENUF STATZ aaaaa
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DraftSavant View Post
NOT ENUF STATZ aaaaa
more like not any stats.

literally all ive seen stats wise from ANYONE is that he has 2 rings and 2 mvp's.

that's it. thats all.

TD has 2 rings too, and should have had 2 mvps. he's not HOF worthy.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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so did terrell davis. what else does eli offer. nobody has told me that yet.
Terrell Davis is a ******* running back your blind homerism is unbelievable.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.
Terrible logic. If i had the time to research all the "every other player to do this has made it" scenarios in every sport, i could teach a fully credited course on it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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Terrell Davis is a ******* running back your blind homerism is unbelievable.
you do realize i'm saying that terrell davis is NOT HOF worthy correct? That i'm using him as part of my argument? That a QB doesn't get into the HOF just because he's a quarterback and he won 2 superbowls?
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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you do realize i'm saying that terrell davis is NOT HOF worthy correct? That i'm using him as part of my argument? That a QB doesn't get into the HOF just because he's a quarterback and he won 2 superbowls?
Um he sort of does.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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Terrible logic. If i had the time to research all the "every other player to do this has made it" scenarios in every sport, i could teach a fully credited course on it.
TD is a good player and probably could get voted into the HOF some day, but he is still a ******* running back. There are plenty of running backs that played on good teams and won super bowls that were major contributor but could have been replaced by most of the running backs in the league and the team would still be a super bowl team. How many QB's are as clutch as Eli and could be replaced and take the Giants to the super bowl? Maybe 3 or 4?

If it were ******* Trent Dilfer we were talking about it would be a different story. Eli Manning legitimately carried his team this year at points to get into the post season and then played great in the playoffs as well as the Super Bowl. He has beat Tom ******* Brady twice in the Super Bowl. You know how many other QB's have done that? None.

He knocked off an 18-0 team that was going into the Super Bowl as the best team in NFL history and then this year takes a 9-7 team through the playoffs and wins again. Yet he probably isn't worthy because you don't think his career stats are good enough.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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Big Ben is overrated as ****
Even as someone who passionately hates Ben, I have to disagree with that statement. While we're all throwing around the 'E word', I would also classify Ben as elite.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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TD is a good player and probably could get voted into the HOF some day, but he is still a ******* running back. There are plenty of running backs that played on good teams and won super bowls that were major contributor but could have been replaced by most of the running backs in the league and the team would still be a super bowl team. How many QB's are as clutch as Eli and could be replaced and take the Giants to the super bowl? Maybe 3 or 4?
Right, but TD is a league mvp, a 3 time all pro selection, 2 time offensive player of the year. eli can't touch that for his position. Funny how Elway didn't win a superbowl in his 90 year career until TD popped up.
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If it were ******* Trent Dilfer we were talking about it would be a different story. Eli Manning legitimately carried his team this year at points to get into the post season and then played great in the playoffs as well as the Super Bowl. He has beat Tom ******* Brady twice in the Super Bowl. You know how many other QB's have done that? None.


zomg eli has a few statistics that nobody else has! surefire hall of famer!

****, bill romanowski had 4 rings and multiple pro bowls. he is the only LB that fits that description that has not been elected to the hall of fame. Do you know why? HE WAS ABOVE AVERAGE HIS ENTIRE CAREER LIKE ELI.

RANDOM STATS THAT DO NOT TIE INTO OVERALL CAREER PERFORMANCE DO NOT GUARANTEE A HALL OF FAME BID
Manning carried his team with the help of the best d-line in the game and the best WR core in the game, as well as 2 very nice complimentary backs. You act like it was all him. Please.
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He knocked off an 18-0 team that was going into the Super Bowl as the best team in NFL history and then this year takes a 9-7 team through the playoffs and wins again. Yet he probably isn't worthy because you don't think his career stats are good enough.
david tyree also knocked off a 18-0 team that was going to the superbowl as the best team ever. and victor cruz also did the same this year. they arent worthy because their career stats aren't good enough. and since that is literally your only argument, that's all i have to refute with.

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Old 02-06-2012, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Um he sort of does.
jim plunkett. jim mcmahon. phill simms. that's 3 of 11, moron. Eli is barely above those guys and far below the rest (minus roethlisberger) at a career level.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Right, but TD is a league mvp, a 3 time all pro selection, 2 time offensive player of the year. eli can't touch that for his position. Funny how Elway didn't win a superbowl in his 90 year career until TD popped up.

Manning carried his team with the help of the best d-line in the game and the best WR core in the game, as well as 2 very nice complimentary backs. You act like it was all him. Please.


zomg eli has a few statistics that nobody else has! surefire hall of famer!

****, bill romanowski had 4 rings and multiple pro bowls. he is the only LB that fits that description that has not been elected to the hall of fame. Do you know why? HE WAS ABOVE AVERAGE HIS ENTIRE CAREER LIKE ELI.

RANDOM STATS THAT DO NOT TIE INTO OVERALL CAREER PERFORMANCE DO NOT GUARANTEE A HALL OF FAME BID
You are the one using the majority of stats, I said Eli was clutch and beat possibly the best team in NFL history to win the Super Bowl, and it isn't like he's a scrub. If you don't think Eli is a hall of famer that's your bag baby but your argument sucks.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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Eli's a HoF in my book for sure now, and I think only being 31 he can easily reach 2 more Super Bowls by the end of his career. Eli is a top 5 QB in the NFL right now, and if he can have another 3 or 4 seasons like this year he could go down as the best Manning over his dad and Peyton.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
You are the one using the majority of stats, I said Eli was clutch and beat possibly the best team in NFL history to win the Super Bowl, and it isn't like he's a scrub. If you don't think Eli is a hall of famer that's your bag baby but your argument sucks.
and you're the one not even using stats that have relevance! the stats that i use add to my argument, whereas the 2 stats you use are just "he's one of few to ever do that, surefire lock!" so tell me why TD and Romanowski don't make the HOF? Do go ahead.

I mean you're effectively saying eli is clutch and that he beat the best team in nfl history (so did Jared Lorenzen and David Tyree! football is a team sport!)

He isn't a scrub. that is your argument. no he isn't, but he isn't close to a hall of famer talent wise.

That's my bag baby, at least i have a sucky argument. you don't even have one, just an opinion.

Seriously, why isn't bill romanowski in the HOF? Why isn't TD? Because they aren't quarterbacks? You've yet to refute anything or attack any central points, just contradiction. here's a little debate 101


Last edited by Jimmy : 02-06-2012 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
jim plunkett. jim mcmahon. phill simms. that's 3 of 11, moron. Eli is barely above those guys and far below the rest (minus roethlisberger) at a career level.
Jim Plunkett is the only one that started both games. That hasn't made the HOF. He wasn't that good of QB. He only had 3 season where he threw more TD than INTs.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Complex View Post
Jim Plunkett is the only one that started both games. That hasn't made the HOF.
One part of your argument, certainly fair. Plunkett is still proof that 2 SB's as a QB isn't a surefire lock. Manning is certainly better than plunkett career wise, but he can't touch the rest on that list. he is somewhere inbetween. i think you can agree with me. Roethlisberger is a better career QB in almost every significant stat element including win percentage 70% vs 57% and has as many rings. And he will need one more ring or several more great seasons, and people don't think he's a lock like Eli is.

So why is it that Eli is a lock, but Ben isn't, even though Ben is clearly better statistically, and in the 4th quarter? (BR has more 4th quarter comebacks and GW drives than eli)

because david tyree caught a ball of his helmet and because mario manningham caught a deep ball on the side line? because wes welker dropped a pass tonight and because asante samuel dropped an interception years ago?

If those 4 plays don't happen perfectly, eli manning is barely farther along in the hall of fame argument than Tony Romo or Phillip Rivers in any way shape or form. Try to find an argument against that, it doesn't exist.

So if you mean to tell me that 4 plays, just 4 plays, (over the course of a career of thousands of plays that were nothing more than tier 2) that came down to mere millimeters hadn't occured, that eli manning wouldn't be any farther along than craig morton? yet you still think he's a hall of fame lock?

anything can happen in football, it's a game of inches. but you can't let 4 plays that came down to inches determine the vast bulk of a player's hall of fame argument. that is my main point.

3 of those plays were lucky, 2 involved skill on eli's part, 2, (maybe 3, depending on what region you hail from) were gifts from the other team. and yet eli manning is a hall of famer because the world thinks 4 plays are more important than 3921 other pass attempts that prove he is nothing more than a tier 2 quarterback, and has played at a tier 2 level for only 2 of his 8 nfl seasons? are you kidding?

that's what 90% of this board is doing, and i want to vomit.

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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Nobody's yet to present me proof he has the talent! He has the championships. He doesn't have HOF talent, though. Like I keep saying to nauseous levels, 2 great seasons, and that's it. His whole career. 2 seasons. And as for elite talent, if he's elite the tier 1 list looks like this:
-------------------Brady, Manning


-------------------Rodgers

-------------------Brees


















-------------------- Eli
My argument had nothing to do with the HoF. It had to do with Eli now being an elite QB. So disregard the HoF talent and dissecting his entire career. But if you're saying that in order to be an elite player at any point in time, then you must be a future HoF'er, then I'd highly disagree with that. I don't think you are though.

I'd agree with your sub-tier. For me, since we're talking about players who are some of the best in the history of the game, you can't measure the tier based on ceilings. Regardless of Eli, Peyton and Brady would put some QB's who are already in the HoF into a lower tier, so for me, we have to establish it with a floor and just agree that transcendent players are just that. If I did it your way, then I'd be forced to put Peyton and Brady in the top tier, Rodgers and Brees in the second, and then so on, yet most would argue that Rodgers and Brees are elite QB's and belong in the best tier. So we agree that there is one elite tier, with the players in it having a varying level of eliteness. For me, Eli has just broken the cusp and has enough to break into the very back of the room, and his doing so has been a recent event considering over the past 4 seasons, he has put up four consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons, with his most recent being the most impressive, has thrown over 100 TD's, has won two Super Bowls, and has the physical talent of a No. 1 overall pick and mental dexterity to lead his team to victory in clutch moments. And these things are good enough for me to say, yeah, he's enough of a notch above Roethlisberger and Rivers to barely make the elite tier. I don't really have an issue with anyone who disagrees, and this can change if Eli comes out next year and bombs. But if we're talking as of February 2012, then I say yes.

As for the HoF talk, I'm not bothering with that. It's mostly projection as he's got several seasons left to play, and this will be a moot point if he continues to throw for 4,000 yards and 25 TD's season after season, and definitely if he wins another Super Bowl.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Roethlisberger is going to be a HOFer too.

the 04 qb class might end up being the GOAT. Especially if Rivers wins a ring in the future. Or Schaub.
I forgot Schaub was drafted in the 2004 NFL Draft. That guy is the most underrated QB in the NFL hands down. I hope he gets a ring. He's one of my favorite players. Wish he was a 49er.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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My argument had nothing to do with the HoF. It had to do with Eli now being an elite QB. So disregard the HoF talent and dissecting his entire career. But if you're saying that in order to be an elite player at any point in time, then you must be a future HoF'er, then I'd highly disagree with that. I don't think you are though.

I'd agree with your sub-tier. For me, since we're talking about players who are some of the best in the history of the game, you can't measure the tier based on ceilings. Regardless of Eli, Peyton and Brady would put some QB's who are already in the HoF into a lower tier, so for me, we have to establish it with a floor and just agree that transcendent players are just that. If I did it your way, then I'd be forced to put Peyton and Brady in the top tier, Rodgers and Brees in the second, and then so on, yet most would argue that Rodgers and Brees are elite QB's and belong in the best tier. So we agree that there is one elite tier, with the players in it having a varying level of eliteness. For me, Eli has just broken the cusp and has enough to break into the very back of the room, and his doing so has been a recent event considering over the past 4 seasons, he has put up four consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons, with his most recent being the most impressive, has thrown over 100 TD's, has won two Super Bowls, and has the physical talent of a No. 1 overall pick and mental dexterity to lead his team to victory in clutch moments. And these things are good enough for me to say, yeah, he's enough of a notch above Roethlisberger and Rivers to barely make the elite tier. I don't really have an issue with anyone who disagrees, and this can change if Eli comes out next year and bombs. But if we're talking as of February 2012, then I say yes.

As for the HoF talk, I'm not bothering with that. It's mostly projection as he's got several seasons left to play, and this will be a moot point if he continues to throw for 4,000 yards and 25 TD's season after season, and definitely if he wins another Super Bowl.
thanks for the well thought out argument. i just have a hard time grasping that when you look at the vast majority of his work, he is no farther along the tier list than Rivers or Romo. Yet because Asante Samuel dropped an interception and tyree made the helmet catch/ because Wes Welker dropped a pass tonight and eli made a great throw, he is elevated above them.

just because of 4 plays in a sample of 3921 career snaps not including running plays. i think that's atrocious.

eli will be in the HOF with another ring. With a bunch of 25 TD 14 int seasons and no ring, I disagree. That's Roethlisberger #'s, and nobody is calling his name to the podium unless he wins another ring.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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You can't spell Elite without Eli.
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