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Old 02-06-2012, 01:16 AM    (permalink
Jimmy
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Originally Posted by Ngatachance92 View Post
You can't spell Elite without Eli.
You can't spell Elite with Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, or Tom Brady. Or Dan Marino. Or John Elway. Or Joe Montana. Or....
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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I guess stats are important so I'll show you one.
Playoff Numbers
Eli Manning -16 TD 8 INT W/L=7-3 2 SB wins
Peyton Manning - 29 TD 19 INT W/L=9-10 1 SB win
John Elway - 27 TD 22 INT W/L=14-8 2 SB wins

Using your logic Peyton Manning, and Elway aren't as elite in the biggest games. While Eli Manning is way more elite in the playoffs using numbers of variables.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:32 AM    (permalink
Jimmy
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Originally Posted by MiWolves View Post
I guess stats are important so I'll show you one.
Playoff Numbers
Eli Manning -16 TD 8 INT W/L=7-3 2 SB wins
Peyton Manning - 29 TD 19 INT W/L=9-10 1 SB win
John Elway - 27 TD 22 INT W/L=14-8 2 SB wins

Using your logic Peyton Manning, and Elway aren't as elite in the biggest games. While Eli Manning is way more elite in the playoffs using numbers of variables.
that's not my logic at all. tell me how that is my logic, quote me or something.

Manning and Elway have the rings that eli does. (the only reason that eli is in this conversation to begin with, remember that he's an above average regular season QB at best)

but they have more then that, they have something eli does not have. they trump eli in every single element of quarterback play on a snap-by-snap basis, not just by playoff wins and losses. so does dan marino, who has no superbowls. how dare anyone put eli in the same shrine room as any of those 3.

you've just shown me a stat to show that Eli was better in the big game. without considering that both elway and peyton have played in twice the playoff games as eli. with elway having far less offensive help than eli in his first 3 appearances in the superbowl. with peyton having no defense ever. i use stats, but they don't have loopholes.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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and you're the one not even using stats that have relevance! the stats that i use add to my argument, whereas the 2 stats you use are just "he's one of few to ever do that, surefire lock!" so tell me why TD and Romanowski don't make the HOF? Do go ahead.

I mean you're effectively saying eli is clutch and that he beat the best team in nfl history (so did Jared Lorenzen and David Tyree! football is a team sport!)

He isn't a scrub. that is your argument. no he isn't, but he isn't close to a hall of famer talent wise.

That's my bag baby, at least i have a sucky argument. you don't even have one, just an opinion.

Seriously, why isn't bill romanowski in the HOF? Why isn't TD? Because they aren't quarterbacks? You've yet to refute anything or attack any central points, just contradiction. here's a little debate 101

I attacked central points that you don't think are central points, you instead resort to statistical analysis for everything, and then when stats refute your argument you say that stats don't tell the entire story in John Elway's case.

You have no balance to your argument at all, and therefore it is pointless to argue with you.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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thanks for the well thought out argument. i just have a hard time grasping that when you look at the vast majority of his work, he is no farther along the tier list than Rivers or Romo. Yet because Asante Samuel dropped an interception and tyree made the helmet catch/ because Wes Welker dropped a pass tonight and eli made a great throw, he is elevated above them.

just because of 4 plays in a sample of 3921 career snaps not including running plays. i think that's atrocious.

eli will be in the HOF with another ring. With a bunch of 25 TD 14 int seasons and no ring, I disagree. That's Roethlisberger #'s, and nobody is calling his name to the podium unless he wins another ring.
Yeah, but you can't fault lucky plays against him. Everyone gets those, and everyone gets their bad luck. Plus, in order for Tyree to make that catch, Eli had to make a play on his own to even give Tyree a chance to begin with by breaking the tackles of three New England defenders. Even Joe Montana had "The Catch" (although I think that was in the NFC Championship against the Cowboys, not the SB, but hopefully ya get what I'm saying). Sometimes, you need historic plays to succeed, and for QB's, succeeding and winning a Super Bowl is the great equalizer. It's just different for them, and a guy who can do that not once but twice can change his status and turn him into one of those QB's who you say, "Yes, he is capable of winning you a Super Bowl," which is a label that can turn a normally good player into a great player. That's just kinda the way things are, and I agree that if Eli had no rings, people wouldn't see him as elite.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
I attacked central points that you don't think are central points, you instead resort to statistical analysis for everything, and then when stats refute your argument you say that stats don't tell the entire story in John Elway's case.

You have no balance to your argument at all, and therefore it is pointless to argue with you.
no, you didn't. you didn't you just used the same argument over and over.

eli manning has won 2 superbowls. eli manning has 2 superbowl MVP's. every quarterback who has won 2 mvp's as a QB is in the hall of fame.

that is literally, in every way, shape and form the entirety of your argument. you have nothing else to bring to the table, you have nothing else to offer, and you cannot deny the fact that eli manning won at least 1 of his 2 superbowls because of freak plays.

we have been talking for 2 plus hours and you cannot do anything but say that.

your only response to this is that "that's not true, superbowls are super important"

it's a game of inches, but inches of freak plays during a superbowl do not decide if a player makes the hall of fame. inches add up to an argument if the inches gained were gained with skill over the entirety of a career, not 2 games.

you have nothing. stop it now. stop it. big games are important. big plays are huge. they may be the most significant part of a player's legacy. but they mean nothing if the rest of the legacy is literally on par with phillip rivers or tony romo.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:43 AM    (permalink
Jimmy
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Yeah, but you can't fault lucky plays against him. Everyone gets those, and everyone gets their bad luck.
Why not? 4 plays out of 4000 are the only reason he is even within a continent of canton. Do you know of any other players that have earned the vast majority of their canton eligibility because of a dropped interception by the oposition and a dropped pass by an opposing WR?

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Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
Plus, in order for Tyree to make that catch, Eli had to make a play on his own to even give Tyree a chance to begin with by breaking the tackles of three New England defenders. Even Joe Montana had "The Catch" (although I think that was in the NFC Championship against the Cowboys, not the SB, but hopefully ya get what I'm saying).
Right, but look at the rest of Montana's work. It's ******* art. I did credit manning for that Tyree play, if you look at my other posts. It just never would have occured if Asante Samuel hadn't dropped an INT that would have retardedly put him into hall of fame contention, because people use 1 play to judge the work of a career.

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Sometimes, you need historic plays to succeed, and for QB's, succeeding and winning a Super Bowl is the great equalizer. It's just different for them, and a guy who can do that not once but twice can change his status and turn him into one of those QB's who you say, "Yes, he is capable of winning you a Super Bowl," which is a label that can turn a normally good player into a great player. That's just kinda the way things are, and I agree that if Eli had no rings, people wouldn't see him as elite.
Winning superbowls certainly transforms the good into the great. It transformed Dilfer from one of the league's worst to someone who is remembered and considered below average but servicable.

But it shouldn't transfer eli manning from Matt Schaub status to Canton. Especially when the superbowls could have gone either way. That's a little silly.

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
in 2012, he is not on the brady, rodgers, manning (peyton variety) brees level.

he is tier 2. you tell me, is that elite?
Actually in 2012 to he drastically outperformed all of 4 of those guys in the playoffs...it's kinda how the giants won the superbowl...

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whose to say Eli isn't just as complimentary? Seriously.

The dude has a 1.58 to 1 TD-INT Ratio for his career and has never even eclipsed a 30 TD season without throwing 25 picks. Heck, he's never thrown more than 25 TD's without a minimum 14 INT's.

Matt Schaub is a better regular season QB with as many rings as marino, and you want to put Eli in the HOF because of 2 rings?
Basically anyone who watches the giants play? I don't think I care for this troll.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:50 AM    (permalink
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no, you didn't. you didn't you just used the same argument over and over.
Do you have any idea what irony is?

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eli manning has won 2 superbowls. eli manning has 2 superbowl MVP's. every quarterback who has won 2 mvp's as a QB is in the hall of fame.
Find where I say that, please. Do yourself a ******* favor and learn how to read posts, you generate these arguments up and read what you want to read.

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that is literally, in every way, shape and form the entirety of your argument. you have nothing else to bring to the table, you have nothing else to offer, and you cannot deny the fact that eli manning won at least 1 of his 2 superbowls because of freak plays.
Oh really, that is my entire argument.

I said:

He is an elite player, one of the most clutch players of all time, had one of the most clutch seasons of all time.

Quarterbacked against quite possibly the best team ever, an undefeated team at the time, and won.

Took a team that had no identity and caught fire and won another Super Bowl against one of the best quarterbacks and coaches ever.

I also shot down your ridiculous argument that his QBR is all that matters by comparing it to your legendary QB who has comparable stats (Eli actually has better.) and you counter argue by saying that the first time John Elway got help he won the super bowl. One could then take that argument and say well if John Elway was so ******* good why couldn't he do it with a lesser cast like Peyton Manning had to.

I also said that players like Trent Dilfer come along and get carried along, that is not the case, but your reading comprehension is so lack luster that you managed to completely skip that and continue on by fapping relentlessly to your stats instead of actually using your eyes to see what happens on a football field.

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we have been talking for 2 plus hours and you cannot do anything but say that.
No, see you are the one who just ignores everyone's point on why Eli is good and say that everyone only has one argument, when there have been plenty presented to you.

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your only response to this is that "that's not true, superbowls are super important"
You mean winning the biggest game in the entire sport garners some sort of recognition? No way.

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it's a game of inches, but inches of freak plays during a superbowl do not decide if a player makes the hall of fame. inches add up to an argument if the inches gained were gained with skill over the entirety of a career, not 2 games.
Coming from a fan who has never seen his team win a playoff game I'm pretty ******* sure I would take a fluke 2-0 win if it meant the Browns winning the super bowl and LeBron James as our QB.

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you have nothing. stop it now. stop it. big games are important. big plays are huge. they may be the most significant part of a player's legacy. but they mean nothing if the rest of the legacy is literally on par with phillip rivers or tony romo.
Except Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo can't do **** to win the big game, and haven't. Your argumentative skills are beyond pathetic, because you can tell me that I don't have an argument doesn't mean I actually don't have one. Also, an opinion is pretty much the same thing as an argument, it's ******* sports, this isn't an exact science. Believe it or not, we all have opinions, nothing is factual.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:51 AM    (permalink
Jimmy
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Actually in 2012 to he drastically outperformed all of 4 of those guys in the playoffs...it's kinda how the giants won the superbowl...
No he didn't, his team did. His ******* team did. Look up the stats, all the stat lines are eerily similar.

Football is a team sport. The Giants won the Superbowl because of a multitude of things, including the best WR and DL combo in the world.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:54 AM    (permalink
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No he didn't, his team did. His ******* team did. Look up the stats, all the stat lines are eerily similar.

Football is a team sport. The Giants won the Superbowl because of a multitude of things, including the best WR and DL combo in the world.
Well **** man, since you have the stats why did any of us bother to actually watch the games?
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
Were we watching the same game? Eli made some terrific stick throws into tight windows that were perfectly placed. I don't recall a single play all game where his receiver bailed him out on a poor throw by making an amazing catch.
Seriously, some of those throws, that he snuck into his receivers, made me momentarily mad that he even took those risks.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:57 AM    (permalink
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Well **** man, since you have the stats why did any of us bother to actually watch the games?
I'm just gonna start looking at the box scores after games instead of actually watching them, and I really don't care who wins the games to be honest. I just want to see who threw for the most yards, because this year throwing for 5k+ yards or having the best passer rating ever and putting up the big stats was a guaranteed super bowl championship.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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Do you think Eli isn't a lock for the HOF??

There are several QBs currently playing that probably end up in Canton when their careers are over. IMO this will be looked upon as the greatest era for HOF QBs in NFL history with so many Canton worthy QBs all contemporaries of each other.

It would sort of be like turning on your TV any random fall Sunday, and being able to see games with Marcus Allen, Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and Emmitt Smith all playing in the same season.

Brady/Peyton/Rodgers/Brees/Roethlisberger/Philip Rivers are IMO all future HOFers.

And so is Eli. Manning.
Of that group, only Brady, Eli and Big Ben have 2+ rings.

You take Eli off the Giants, and maybe they win 6 games a year. That's not a plug-and-play offense in NY, like in NE or GB where their backups have been successful running the same system.

Wait until you start hearing people discuss openly whether or not Eli is actually a better big game QB than Brady.(YES)
If I get to choose my QB in a championship game between Eli and Brady, I'm taking the guy who keeps stealing Tom Terrific's lunch money.

This is the second time Brady got chumped in the SB by a scrappy Giants football team.

Forget about arguing how 'elite' Eli Manning is.
I'm beginning to wonder how overrated Tom Brady might be.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:10 AM    (permalink
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I'm just gonna start looking at the box scores after games instead of actually watching them, and I really don't care who wins the games to be honest. I just want to see who threw for the most yards, because this year throwing for 5k+ yards or having the best passer rating ever and putting up the big stats was a guaranteed super bowl championship.
And it's not like he puts up bad numbers. He put up big numbers this year, absolutely ridiculous 4th quarter numbers and has consistently been one of the best 4th quarter, late in the half and 2-minute drive QBs in the NFL. He's a part of one of the league's most vertical passing games and sports one of the best and most accurate deep balls in teh NFL right now, has a brilliant grasp for reading defenses and running his retardedly complex offense. Has great pocket presence and just doesn't get rattled. I honestly wouldn't trade him for any guy in the league anymore. I used to say I wouldn't trade him for anyone but Tom Brady, but right now Eli's earned his spot in that top group. They are his peers.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:24 AM    (permalink
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This argument is a semantic debate of the label ‘elite’ at its core.

If we’re defining elite as the current best of the best, then I would err on the side that he’s not quite there yet. If the parameters are expanded out to quarterbacks that I’m supremely confident can carry my team come Sunday, then he’s been there for longer than most realize. At the end of the day, I think Eli’s actually been underrated most of his career. He’s a true franchise quarterback, not the recipient of a trite moniker handed out by the sports media to the majority of starting signal-callers. And he has cemented himself as a top five quarterback in the NFL with his recent performances. If that fits your definition of elite, then his status is inarguable. He’s elite. Case closed. If your definition is qualified with an even higher degree of exclusivity, then his status is open to some debate for now.

Overall, I think we’re witnessing some all-time great quarterbacking in the NFL, and I’m sure a good amount of it can be attributed to the offensive bias legislated from the competition committee. But, inflated or not, we’ve got a real handful of quarterbacks that are destined for Canton in the league right now. In comparison to the top of that tier, Eli lags a little. But he also has a lot of football left ahead of him to continue strengthening his résumé and I have little doubt that he will remain in this kind of class. In another era, I don’t believe this is such a hot-button issue.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:24 AM    (permalink
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that's not my logic at all. tell me how that is my logic, quote me or something.

Manning and Elway have the rings that eli does. (the only reason that eli is in this conversation to begin with, remember that he's an above average regular season QB at best)

but they have more then that, they have something eli does not have. they trump eli in every single element of quarterback play on a snap-by-snap basis, not just by playoff wins and losses. so does dan marino, who has no superbowls. how dare anyone put eli in the same shrine room as any of those 3.

you've just shown me a stat to show that Eli was better in the big game. without considering that both elway and peyton have played in twice the playoff games as eli. with elway having far less offensive help than eli in his first 3 appearances in the superbowl. with peyton having no defense ever. i use stats, but they don't have loopholes.
Are you ******** me.. The biggest games are where legends are made. The main argument when a player doesn't make the HoF is SB wins. Sure stats are important. But if Joe Namath can make it to the HoF based on a SB win where he guaranteed a win. John Elway's best statistical year doesn't beat Manning's best statistical year at all. If anything those receivers are the product of Manning. Using the argument that Elway never had an offense is negated with the Raven's SB win because they don't have an offense either.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:34 AM    (permalink
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Do you have any idea what irony is?
I think you're hinting at the fact that I continue to use my points and statistics over and over. I think I get a free pass, because my points actually make sense. more on that below.

what i said to piss you off:
Quote:
eli manning has won 2 superbowls. eli manning has 2 superbowl MVP's. every quarterback who has won 2 mvp's as a QB is in the hall of fame.
your response:
Quote:
Find where I say that, please. Do yourself a ******* favor and learn how to read posts, you generate these arguments up and read what you want to read.
You're actually right on this one. I just confused you with every other poster who is on your side, who used the 2 ring argument as their entire argument. All of the posts quoted below, with the exception of maybe 2 are the ENTIRE quote, and serve as the ENTIRE argument for that poster. But seriously, every other ************ is using this argument EXCLUSIVELY as their point.

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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Eli is 31, has two super bowls
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.
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Originally Posted by mellojello View Post
The guy has 2 SB's now, so does he get into the "elite" club?
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
He's going to Canton. It's almost a lock. Every qb who has 2+ SBs has gotten into Canton other than Jim Plunkett. And Eli's career is far superior to his so I'll be shocked if he doesn't wind up in Canton eventually.
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eli has played 8 seasons. he's won 2 rings. and he's been prety great in all others. so basically, he's won the whole ******* thing 25% of the years he's played...
but let's move on from that and move on to your much much much more complex, less one-sided argument

Quote:
Oh really, that is my entire argument.

I said:

He is an elite player, one of the most clutch players of all time, had one of the most clutch seasons of all time.
So your entire argument isn't exclusively that he has 2 superbowls and 2 mvp's... It's worse. It's exclusively that because "he" beat the patriots and because he had one of the most clutch seasons of all time that he deserves to be in Canton. You use a superbowl game that was won because Asante dropped an interception that, ironically enough, would have put him in Canton discussions (because people look past the work of a career), as the bulk of your argument, and you supplement it with ONE season of clutch. Wowee. Let us count all the times you resort to the same argument. I have resorted to the same argumentative tactics argument myself, but you have yet to refute my actual claims with anything more than your "central argument" that eli has won 2 superbowl rings as a clutch player this year and beat the best team of all time years ago. let's count the number of times you use this point and only this point to refute me.

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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Eli is 31, has two super bowls, and has put together one of the most clutch seasons in NFL history. You are using stats, not your eyes, this is where you fail.
Quote:
Quarterbacked against quite possibly the best team ever, an undefeated team at the time, and won.

Took a team that had no identity and caught fire and won another Super Bowl against one of the best quarterbacks and coaches ever.
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He knocked off an 18-0 team that was going into the Super Bowl as the best team in NFL history and then this year takes a 9-7 team through the playoffs and wins again. Yet he probably isn't worthy because you don't think his career stats are good enough.
He did this. He did that. He did this. No credit to the team when credit to the team is blatantly due.
Furthermore, David Tyree "wide-receivered" against the greatest team of all time, and won too! Does that make him Canton eligible? What about someone who had a larger role that year? Do they get any hall of fame love? Or are we just giving Eli the bulk of the credit because he's a quarterback? Isn't that a little odd to you? Never seen someone give so much credit to a player who got to where he was, not because he was elite all year, but because his team had chemistry and stepped up as a collective unit.

Quote:
I also shot down your ridiculous argument that his QBR is all that matters by comparing it to your legendary QB who has comparable stats (Eli actually has better.) and you counter argue by saying that the first time John Elway got help he won the super bowl. One could then take that argument and say well if John Elway was so ******* good why couldn't he do it with a lesser cast like Peyton Manning had to.
I'll use a little of your own venom for this response below. I will note that there is a slight difference between Elway and Manning, although I don't blame you for missing it. John Elway was a Hall of Fame lock with or without a superbowl, much like Dan Marino. Like I always say, Eli Manning is Phillip Rivers with 2 rings. Just a miniscule difference between Elway and Manning though. Glad you brought that up and provided such a terrible argument. Not false or wrong since there are no stats, but just a bad, poorly thought our argument. Eli can't touch Elway, want me to provide a grocery list why? Most 4th quarter comebacks ever? Stop there, even though there's 20 other things I could list? Thought so...

this is what you should do: read your own post below, and tell me where i exclusively use QBR as my argument.

Quote:
Find where I say that, please. Do yourself a ******* favor and learn how to read posts, you generate these arguments up and read what you want to read.
His QBR is all that matters in my mind, huh? What about all the other things that matter to me, like, I don't know, regular season stats, overall winning percentage, TD to INT ratio, regular season game winning drives, yards? You know, all those categories that would ******* humilate Eli if you were to ever compare his career work to actual Hall of Famers and future fall of famers...

Quote:
I also said that players like Trent Dilfer come along and get carried along, that is not the case, but your reading comprehension is so lack luster that you managed to completely skip that and continue on by fapping relentlessly to your stats instead of actually using your eyes to see what happens on a football field.
Eli Manning was carried along to a much lesser extent than Dilfer. Manning is far superior to Dilfer, but wouldn't have a superbowl without the best defensive line in the league and the best WR corps in the league. Practically every other great QB (Elway, Montana, etc.) has instances of being "carried along," but the difference between them and Eli is that they were great before they were carried along.

Quote:
No, see you are the one who just ignores everyone's point on why Eli is good and say that everyone only has one argument, when there have been plenty presented to you.
No I don't, I just mistook you for every other poster on this board whose argument is that Eli has 2 rings. Big deal. Your argument is worse. "He" beat the patriots (best team EVARRRRRRR) and "he" carried his team thru the playoffs this year.


Quote:
You mean winning the biggest game in the entire sport garners some sort of recognition? No way.
Once again, I think superbowls are the ultimate capstone to a great career. They are not mandatory, see Dan Marino, among others. They are VERY important. BUT they are not the only thing that matters. They should not be used to judge 90% of a player's canton resume. If they were, Bill Romanowski (4x champ, 2x pro bowler), Pepper Johnson (5x champ, 2x pro bowler), Marv Flemming (5x champ) would all be in Canton with as many pro-bowls as Eli, but TWO TIMES MORE rings.


Quote:
Coming from a fan who has never seen his team win a playoff game I'm pretty ******* sure I would take a fluke 2-0 win if it meant the Browns winning the super bowl and LeBron James as our QB.
I don't like you.


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Old 02-06-2012, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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I stopped reading half way through your post.

You just start generating these arguments based off of something I didn't say and run with it every time.

This time, resorting to me saying that Eli single handily beat the Patriots twice, and that my argument is weak because it is "exclusively" that he is a two time super bowl champion as a quarterback for a team while also putting up good numbers.

As for the picture at the bottom, good work. You have shown your maturity level throughout the entirety of this thread and I would expect nothing less from you at this point. Maybe if you post some more graphs with internet arguments and pictures from games where I wasn't old enough to even witness you could really knock my morale down and convince me you are right.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Seriously, some of those throws, that he snuck into his receivers, made me momentarily mad that he even took those risks.
Maybe it's because of watching Eli over the years...but I don't think he knew those risks were there. The problem with Eli was that he was never consistent, he would give you a great game then a dud. I never believed he would be able to get over that little hump to become "elite." He's always taken risks in the past and half of the time they turned out horribly. I know he's been doing it all season, but let me see him do it for another season consecutively before I start calling him elite. I remember when we were debating the same thing about Rodgers after his Super Bowl win last year when he's been a much better quarterback than Eli over the past 4 years, his consistency made it easy for me to call him elite, I need the same from Eli to call him that. I need the same consistency to believe he's finally passed that hump and those throws weren't due to luck and ****** DBs.

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Old 02-06-2012, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I believe in Eli...
I believe he can touch the sky...
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God damn it.

No offense, but your Raiders draft sucks.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Maybe it's because of watching Eli over the years...but I don't think he knew those risks were there. The problem with Eli was that he was never consistent, he would give you a great game then a dud. I never believed he would be able to get over that little hump to become "elite." He's always taken risks in the past and half of the time they turned out horribly. I know he's been doing it all season, but let me see him do it for another season consecutively before I start calling him elite. I remember when we were debating the same thing about Rodgers after his Super Bowl win last year when he's been a much better quarterback than Eli over the past 4 years, his consistency made it easy for me to call him elite, I need the same from Eli to call him that. I need the same consistency to believe he's finally passed that hump and those throws weren't due to luck and ****** DBs.
Eli's consistency wasn't really ever a problem. He was always great late in games or when running the two minute drill. Eli's problem has always been the system he works with.

The passing concepts are absurdly complex, so there's a lot of miscommunication because of receivers making the wrong read, the offense is very vertical which forces a lot of risk on Eli and gets really run heavy in the redzone, so that Eli didn't get the redzone TDs other great QBs rack up to offset the picks they get. Eli has consistently played great for years now and a couple bad games a year that all QBs have don't offset that.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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I like the idea that we're seeing an all-time high of HOF QBs playing. Is Eli elite? Yes. He has shown that he can carry his team when they need him to, and do it on the biggest stage in the NFL. Is Eli the best? No. Top 5? Debatable. But being between 4-6 in this current league is nothing to scoff at. So when it comes down to it, he is an ELIte QB.

On a side note, I have seen mention of comparing RBs not in the HOF to Eli. I don't care for the argument of Terrell Davis not getting in, but RBs are not as important as the QB position. I would imagine that it will be even harder for an RB to get in because of the premium placed on QBs and the fact that RBs can be plugged in for the most part.

I do have one question for Jimmy: I see that TD has been a semifinalist for the HOF (http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../DaviTe00.htm), so assuming that he eventually will get in, will your argument then change?
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Messageboards are so messageboard-y sometimes.

ALSO, WHO THE **** IS SAYING BIG BEN WON'T MAKE IT TO THE HOF? PRETTY SURE HE WILL, YOU FUCKNUTS.

And both are better than Rivers, who has been overrated because of fantasy football for basically 4-5 years now.

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Old 02-06-2012, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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Eli is very good. Overall, I don't think he is elite.

He is one the greatest QBs in NFL history in terms of being unflappable or clutch.

People act like he is the only reason that the Giant's won that game. The Giant's D, particularly their front line, did a great job. The Giant's also rushed very well in the game.

Eli also has some fantastic receivers.

This isn't to denigrate Eli, but he is not a robot back there like the elite guys.
He's closer to Rapistburger than to Rodgers or Brady.

Brady is one of the greatest ever. He's won SB's with chopped liver for WRs.

Brady did blow it last night in the 4th. Made some bad throws.
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