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Old 02-06-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
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Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
I believe in Eli...
I believe he can touch the sky...
I believe in a thing called Eli
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance he can get a touchdown
Can he make it 'fore the clock runs down?

I believe in a thing called EEEEEEEELIIIII-III
Ooooo, oooooo

I drunkenly developed that one last night after a commercial with the guy from the Darkness in it.

Anyway, back to Eli. The dude has TWICE now, led game winning TOUCHDOWN drives to win Super bowls in the final minute. He didn't get it to the 30 and let arguably the greatest kicker of all time get him his SBs. He got into the endzone and took the trophy. And Jimmy, you're saying 4 plays out of however many thousand in his career are what's making us even have this argument. I respond by saying, that's oversimplifying things, and Eli's part in the Tyree catch was, IMO, more impressive than Tyree's. I thought he was sacked for sure.

But if we really want to play that game, we can look at Tom Brady. If Vinatieri misses a kick, if the Patriots D wasn't all-time great at the beginning of the decade, we might be looking at a guy without rings. Obviously, those things didn't happen, and Brady has his three rings. We could play what-if until we're blue in the face, but the bottom line is Eli went and led those game winning touchdown drives, getting his team into the endzone in the final minute to win two super bowls. Non-elite QBs don't do that.

It really just comes down to watching him play. Just look at the SF game. Non-elite QBs don't respond the way he did to all that pressure. Hell, most of the other elite guys probably play a lot worse than Eli did against the constant pressure he was facing. He got hit what, 20 times? That would rattle almost anyone. But Eli just kept battling through the rain and was able to help lead his team to victory. Obviously Kyle Williams, Jacquan Williams and Devin Thomas played a huge part in deciding that game as well, but any team winning the SB gets those kind of timely plays(although maybe not usually as insane as those two).

You can use career numbers to prove he's not on the level of the absolute ATGs, at this point, for his career, but it does nothing to tell us if, right now, he is an elite player at his position. I, for one think he is, based on the reasoning I laid about above. He has tremendous poise, leadership ability, can make every throw and do it accurately, he's intelligent... I really don't know what else to look for. Sure, his regular season numbers aren't as pretty as the 3 guys who are above him, but his record speaks for itself. When the chips are down and you need a big drive, Eli is as good as they get.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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I tried to read as much of this thread as I could but a lot of the posts are just unappealing blocks of text so forgive me if someone has already said what I am about to.

People often use SB wins as a crutch to say how great a player is one way or another. I hate using Super Bowl wins to justify if a player is Elite or not. Sure we have great QBs that have won many Super Bowls (Brady, Montana, Elway etc.) but we have seen great QBs that have never won one (Kelly and Marino) and others that have won one but would never be considered great. The point is that I don't think there are many people out there that would make the argument that Eli or Big Ben is a better QB than Marino based upon SB wins alone.

With that said in the discussion of whether Eli is Elite or not I have a hard time deciphering. I think that after the performance he had down the stretch of the regular season and the playoffs that Eli is an Elite QB. In my opinion he is right on the line either way and has to maintain that level of play next season to solidify his position amongst the best.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) View Post
I believe in a thing called Eli
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance he can get a touchdown
Can he make it 'fore the clock runs down?

I believe in a thing called EEEEEEEELIIIII-III
Ooooo, oooooo

I drunkenly developed that one last night after a commercial with the guy from the Darkness in it.

Anyway, back to Eli. The dude has TWICE now, led game winning TOUCHDOWN drives to win Super bowls in the final minute. He didn't get it to the 30 and let arguably the greatest kicker of all time get him his SBs. He got into the endzone and took the trophy. And Jimmy, you're saying 4 plays out of however many thousand in his career are what's making us even have this argument. I respond by saying, that's oversimplifying things, and Eli's part in the Tyree catch was, IMO, more impressive than Tyree's. I thought he was sacked for sure.

But if we really want to play that game, we can look at Tom Brady. If Vinatieri misses a kick, if the Patriots D wasn't all-time great at the beginning of the decade, we might be looking at a guy without rings. Obviously, those things didn't happen, and Brady has his three rings. We could play what-if until we're blue in the face, but the bottom line is Eli went and led those game winning touchdown drives, getting his team into the endzone in the final minute to win two super bowls. Non-elite QBs don't do that.

It really just comes down to watching him play. Just look at the SF game. Non-elite QBs don't respond the way he did to all that pressure. Hell, most of the other elite guys probably play a lot worse than Eli did against the constant pressure he was facing. He got hit what, 20 times? That would rattle almost anyone. But Eli just kept battling through the rain and was able to help lead his team to victory. Obviously Kyle Williams, Jacquan Williams and Devin Thomas played a huge part in deciding that game as well, but any team winning the SB gets those kind of timely plays(although maybe not usually as insane as those two).

You can use career numbers to prove he's not on the level of the absolute ATGs, at this point, for his career, but it does nothing to tell us if, right now, he is an elite player at his position. I, for one think he is, based on the reasoning I laid about above. He has tremendous poise, leadership ability, can make every throw and do it accurately, he's intelligent... I really don't know what else to look for. Sure, his regular season numbers aren't as pretty as the 3 guys who are above him, but his record speaks for itself. When the chips are down and you need a big drive, Eli is as good as they get.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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No he didn't, his team did. His ******* team did. Look up the stats, all the stat lines are eerily similar.

Football is a team sport. The Giants won the Superbowl because of a multitude of things, including the best WR and DL combo in the world.
Your argument is silly. You're trying to break down a QB based on a few plays that did or didn't happen. So what Asante dropped an interception? This happens hundreds of times during the course of a season for even the most elite QB's. Just because you decide to exemplify one instance during 4000 plays that the ball was almost intercepted doesn't mean it defines his career.

Missed plays happen. You can't think "what if" in these situations because it circular reasoning that never ends. It didn't happen. That's all the matters.

And your whole argument about the team stuff is silly too. Everyone relies on team play to succeed, even if you're considered an elite QB like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. Would Tom Brady be considered one of the greatest of all time had he not had a mastermind head coach and superb defense? Would he be considered clutch and elite had he not had an amazingly clutch kicker? Or what if there wasn't the tuck rule?

All seemingly pointless things to consider. Would Peyton Manning already be considered the best QB of all time if he had the Ravens or Patriots defense for the past decade? Maybe, because it means he probably would have had more Super Bowl rings. But there's no way of knowing. You can only base your evidence on what DID happens or was has happened.

Your argument using stats is far more valid, but there are still always flaws to that as well. I'm one of those people who has never thought that winning rings meant you're automatically better than someone else. Eli has proven to be one of the most clutch QB's in the league. He's put up great numbers and proven to be one of the smartest and toughest QB's around. Is he a HOF right now? No. Is he an elite QB right now? Possibly. But both of these arguments hinge on his success going forward.

You're trying to base a large portion of your argument on things that could be argued for just about any QB. Eli may have had an elite receiving corps, but he also may have elevated the play of that WR corps just as much through his own play. He also had a ****** O-Line. He also carried his team to the playoffs almost the entire year when the defense was a major liability.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm not gonna add anything to the convo, I mean everything has pretty much been said already, for both sides.

But I do find revisionist history to be funny. Now Eli has the best WR core in the league. Funny, I could have sworn the Packers had that. Not to mention everyone was killing the Giants (including myself for a short while) for not re-signing Smith, or Boss (I was ok with letting Boss go). I highly doubt anyone thought we had the best weapons in the league when the season started. Hell, to think that even now is silly.

It was always something. First it was "all he does is throw it high to Plax!111"

Then it was "oh he has great WRs!!111"

Then after he lost those WRs, it was "Oh he has even betterzz WRs!!11"

Not to mention the "it's all the runz gamez!!!"

or "he haz the best olinez!!11"

All of which were never true. All the pieces around Eli has constantly been changing. The one constant was Eli himself. Great qbs make their weapons look better than they are. Eli has done that his entire career.

What is Shaun OHara and Rich Seuburt doing right now? I thought those were big losses? Yeah, they were so dominant no team in the league wanted to even touch them, and forced them into retirement.

What did Toomer do when we let him go? Go on to get a 1000 yard season? No, he retired, bc no one wanted him anymore.

What did Plax do? That chapter isn't over yet, but right here right now it's not looking too hot.

What did Shockey do?

What did Steve Smith do?

What did Boss do?


See a trend here?

Eli won a SB with Jake Ballard at TE, a guy who literally runs a 5.0 40, 3 very good WRs, absolutely no run game (dead last in the league), a below average oline, and a defense that was wildly inconsistent all season long until Fewell smartened up towards the end of the season.

And guess what? He'll lose more pieces this offseason. It happens every year, every team has roster turnover. And it won't make a difference. Bc it's always been Eli running the show. Everything around him can and will change over time, but he won't.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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I thought Eli was an elite quarterback before the season started. I was really puzzled with the controversy that the media was trying to stir up about Eli Manning being an elite quarterback or not. I feel like a lot of good quarterbacks that used to be good wouldn't be in today's NFL if they didn't have monster statistics. Troy Aikman, Steve McNair, Mark Brunell, etc.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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I thought Eli was an elite quarterback before the season started. I was really puzzled with the controversy that the media was trying to stir up about Eli Manning being an elite quarterback or not. I feel like a lot of good quarterbacks that used to be good wouldn't be in today's NFL if they didn't have monster statistics. Troy Aikman, Steve McNair, Mark Brunell, etc.
Fantasy football....
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Eli is never gonna be accepted like an American darling because he's not good looking, has a cry baby face, talks like he has a short tongue and is conceited about himself.

That said, he's elite.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Fantasy football....
Still trying to decide if fantasy football is good for the NFL. Or rather, the integrity of the game. Especially with the new rules in place that favor the offense.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Eli is never gonna be accepted like an American darling because he's not good looking, has a cry baby face, talks like he has a short tongue and is conceited about himself.

That said, he's elite.
...and that whole draft day fiasco. but yes, he's elite.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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that awkward moment when Kevin Boothe starts on your Oline in the super bowl and Eli gets the **** kicked out of him and has no running game.

that even more awkward moment when someone is using LUCK (and not Andrew) to say that Eli isn't elite. If you're using luck in any argument you should just stop right there and re-evaluate your thought process about everything.

People also need to realize, we've got 2 top 10 QB's of ALL TIME playing now, in Brady and Peyton. (peyton's not technically playing now, but still). Rodgers and Brees are well on their way (and also play in very QB happy offenses). Because Eli's not in a glorified spread offense or a top 10 QB of all time means he's not "elite" right now? I call bull ****.

Also, QBR is the most useless at worst stat of all time. Throw that crap out the window.

Also, also, saying Eli's TD numbers aren't that great is silly. Brandon Jacobs is the Giants all time rushing TD leader. Why? Because instead of helping Eli pad his stats inside the 5 with TD's, we just plow it with Fatass Twinkletoes Jacobs.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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Imagine the NFL today if...

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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a defense that was wildly inconsistent all season long until Fewell smartened up towards the end of the season.
It was inconsistent since so many studs were hurt.

Amazing how good Fewell looked when his best players started coming back from injuries. At the end of the season, the giants D started playing to potential as one of the league's best defenses.

BTW, Tom Coughlin is great and the idiots who get on him for losing when his players are hurt make me laugh.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Imagine the NFL today if...

Imagine today if Eli didn't cry and have his daddy get the bad man to trade him to the team he wanted to play for.

"Daddy, it's not fair, I WANNA PLAY FOR THE GIANTS!"

"OK, Eli, let me see what I can do. Just let me do all of the talking for you."

That behavior right there is one reason that I have with Eli. What a baby. Just like horse-face.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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It was inconsistent since so many studs were hurt.

Amazing how good Fewell looked when his best players started coming back from injuries. At the end of the season, the giants D started playing to potential as one of the league's best defenses.

BTW, Tom Coughlin is great and the idiots who get on him for losing when his players are hurt make me laugh.
Fewell needed to adjust too. He just runs way too much zone. We're not a zone defense yet he forced it on the unit. When we started ripping off wins at the end of the season, he ran a lot more man coverage.

Even in the SB, we ran zone way too much until after NE scored 17. We basically ran zone for the entire first half and the first drive of the 3rd quarter. Once they scored 17, Fewell went to a lot more man coverage, and they didn't score for the rest of the game.

Health was a huge factor, but Fewell's willingness to run man coverage instead of his Tampa 2 was a huge factor as well.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:22 PM    (permalink
DraftSavant
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Fewell needed to adjust too. He just runs way too much zone. We're not a zone defense yet he forced it on the unit. When we started ripping off wins at the end of the season, he ran a lot more man coverage.

Even in the SB, we ran zone way too much until after NE scored 17. We basically ran zone for the entire first half and the first drive of the 3rd quarter. Once they scored 17, Fewell went to a lot more man coverage, and they didn't score for the rest of the game.

Health was a huge factor, but Fewell's willingness to run man coverage instead of his Tampa 2 was a huge factor as well.
They were doing a lot of interesting cover 3 concepts that I liked out of big nickel.

Basically, they were running a Tampa 2 invert. MIKE taking deep middle, CBs taking deep 3rds, with SAM and the two safeties playing buzz/hook/curl/force.

Actually worked pretty nice since NE had absolutely nobody that could get vertical, and were basically trying to feed Hernandez, Welker, and Woodhead underneath.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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That behavior right there is one reason that I have with Eli. What a baby. Just like horse-face.
Take that back!

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Umm...both are going to the HOF...

And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.

Again, it's not really a question of if Eli will make it. He's pretty much a lock for the HOF now, it's a question of whether he deserves to make it. I won't argue that, bc quite frankly, his career isn't over yet, so we can't really say if he deserves it or not yet bc his final chapters have yet to be written.

But he's basically a lock to make the HOF at this point regardless of his future bc of the precedents set before him.
Precedents change over time though. It's going to be harder for him to make the HOF if he doesn't have at least another few dominant seasons. He doesn't necessarily need to win another Superbowl, but that will lock him for sure.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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They were doing a lot of interesting cover 3 concepts that I liked out of big nickel.

Basically, they were running a Tampa 2 invert. MIKE taking deep middle, CBs taking deep 3rds, with SAM and the two safeties playing buzz/hook/curl/force.

Actually worked pretty nice since NE had absolutely nobody that could get vertical, and were basically trying to feed Hernandez, Welker, and Woodhead underneath.
You're talking about the first half right? I actually wanted us to jam them more. Those free releases made Brady's presnap reads way too easy in teh first half.

Everyone is killing Brady, but I think it's unfair. The guy has absolutely no WRs outside of Welker running 5 yard routes, his best weapon was a decoy (Gronk shouldn't have played, he hurt them more than he helped them), and a TE who was basically the offense last night. His oline isn't exactly the 90 Cowboys either and they were going against a vastly superior dline. What more could the guy do? I thought he did everything he could.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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i think hes now may a good case for himself, but its super funny how 7-8 weeks ago Eli was right where hes always been around the top 10 in QBs, Coughlin was about to get fired, and the giants were about to miss the playoffs after falling right on their face for half the year. He has some heroics in him thats for sure...but i think its laughable how a few weeks goes by and now all of the sudden eli is on aaron rodgers level and coughlin is a HOF coach.
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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:shrug: I guess it depends on what you define as dominance. I think Eli's been consistently dominant since around 2008. It's not a flashy/numbers system for quarterbacks. Hell, Brunell's highest TD output in that system was 20 - in warm weather Jacksonville with two really good and smart receivers who ran that offense perfectly.

Coughlin always, always, always, always will try to achieve balance within his offense and is conservative by nature in the redzone. That has and always will stifle his QB's statistical production.

What people don't see statistically is how difficult that system is for a quarterback to run - let alone run completely at the LOS like Eli does.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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You're talking about the first half right? I actually wanted us to jam them more. Those free releases made Brady's presnap reads way too easy in teh first half.

Everyone is killing Brady, but I think it's unfair. The guy has absolutely no WRs outside of Welker running 5 yard routes, his best weapon was a decoy (Gronk shouldn't have played, he hurt them more than he helped them), and a TE who was basically the offense last night. His oline isn't exactly the 90 Cowboys either and they were going against a vastly superior dline. What more could the guy do? I thought he did everything he could.
I think it was a halftime adjustment once they realized Gronk couldn't challenge them vertically at all. I didn't really notice it in the 1st half - saw way more base Cover 2/3/Quarters.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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I think it was a halftime adjustment once they realized Gronk couldn't challenge them vertically at all. I didn't really notice it in the 1st half - saw way more base Cover 2/3/Quarters.
I gotta watch it again. I was so into the moment I wasn't as focused on the Xs and Os the first time around.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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i think hes now may a good case for himself, but its super funny how 7-8 weeks ago Eli was right where hes always been around the top 10 in QBs, Coughlin was about to get fired, and the giants were about to miss the playoffs after falling right on their face for half the year. He has some heroics in him thats for sure...but i think its laughable how a few weeks goes by and now all of the sudden eli is on aaron rodgers level and coughlin is a HOF coach.
to be fair, all season Giants fans were saying how eli was easily top 10 and moving up fast by carrying the offense but we were just labeled as homers.

and is someone saying Eli's stats suffer because of the conservative playcalling and the system and giving him credit for what he does at the LOS? LOLZ GOOD ONE HOMER. LET ME GUESS, ALL HIS PICKS ARE DROPPED BALLS AND WIND AND BAD ROUTES TOO AMIRITE?
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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I gotta watch it again. I was so into the moment I wasn't as focused on the Xs and Os the first time around.
Yeah, I was pretty sober for this SB, so I was Xs and Os out all game. Thought it was a pretty fascinating game schematically, actually.
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