Offseason Discussion Thread - Page 78

bigbluedefense · 06-23-2012, 04:33 PM

Eli <3

I was watching NFL network earlier and saw the Giants/Cowboys game from 1994. Great game. Seeing LT (the real LT) give it his all one last time before he retired and beast it, that was great to watch. Great smash mouth football game btw a team who was on the decline (The Giants) and a team on the rise in Dallas.

And most importantly, every time I watch old games I pay attention to the Xs and Os of the game to see how much it truly "evolved"

The truth is, it hasn't evolved much at all. Players make plays. The Xs and Os aren't all that different. Formations aren't all that different. Routes, passing concepts, pass protections, coverages, it's all the same ****.

Players gotta play. I'm slowly accepting that over the years. Play calls are play calls. And players have to execute them. That's all there really is to it. Adjust to your players strengths, play a scheme that maximizes their talents, and just execute. If you can't execute, it's on you, not on the coach.

stlouisfan37 · 06-23-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosebud

Eli's in the elite tier of QBs with Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Peyton if Peyton's healthy. If someone wants to put him on par with any of those guys it's not nearly as absurd as you're suggesting. Eli played in the most vertical offense in the league that has some of the highest potential for colossal error because of the depth of the option routes, without a running game, behind a poor OL, and with a defense Perry Fewell was doing his damnedest to put in a position to fail. He still played a phenomenal season, repeatedly stepping up and carrying his team through the big moments and added a second ring to his resume. He's younger than Brees and so should have a longer career from here on out and has been consistently improving every season he's been in the NFL. I rank Brees ahead of Eli for career accomplishments, but if you asked me to pick between the two of them, I would rather have Eli, for a single game, for a single season or for the rest of their respective careers.

I appreciate your opinion, and your reasoning behind choosing Eli over Brees has some logic behind it, which I respect. It's nice to hear this as opposed to "he sucks because he's a whiny little *****." I personally think Eli is a 2nd tier QB, but that is also my opinion.

Rosebud · 06-23-2012, 09:11 PM

Care to defend that opinion?

Razor · 06-24-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stlouisfan37

It is obvious that you don't like Drew Brees, which is totally fine. Everyone has players they don't like. I don't like Ben Roethlisberger at all. I think he is a real piece of work who uses his celebrity to get his way and doesn't carry himself with an ounce of integrity. Having said that, I still acknowledge that he is a very good football player. What you are doing is allowing your personal feelings towards Drew Brees influence how you feel about his play on the field, which takes all objectivity away from your arguments.

To take an honest look at the numbers, last season Brees had one of the greatest seasons ever. His completion percentage was higher than any of the quarterbacks you mentioned, whether at home or away. He threw for more passing yards than any of them, whether home or away. He threw more touchdowns than anyone else as well. And, while Brady and Rodgers did throw for more touchdowns on the road, throwing 17 td's vs 8 ints in away games is a far cry from average. Really, the only category where he fell short of Rodgers and Brady was in int's. Other than that one category, his numbers were well above theirs, but you are going to focus on the one category and drop his field of work two rungs because of it. That is not being objective. That is the sheer definition of bias in my book.

Furthermore, to say he is on par with Eli is just a farce. His completion percentage was a full 10% higher than Eli's. 500 more passing yards, 17 more TD's and less int's. His body of work for his career is far superior to Eli's as well. Your opinion does not reconcile with the rest of the football-watching world.

I'm pretty sure that if I am letting my personal feelings getting in the way of objectively assessing Drew Brees as a player I wouldn't call him a fantastic QB when he's at home. What I've done (besides airing my opinion of Brees as a person) is that I've called him out on his performances on the road and his tendency to throw dumb INTs. Even Saints fans can't disagree on that. And wrt. Eli vs. Scarface I think Rosebud took care of that for me.

PackerLegend · 06-26-2012, 12:19 PM

Another Lion player arrested for DUI.... well I guess I should have posted something that is news we didn't know. ITs Aaron Berry btw.

A Perfect Score · 06-26-2012, 12:36 PM

I've got a legitimate question for Bears fans. Why exactly hasn't the team moved Matt Forte? You've got Michael Bush, who is more then capable of handling the load, for an extremely marginal price for the next several years. The offense is transitioning to one based less around Forte and more around Cutler (The Brandon Marshall acquisition, the drafting of Alshon Jeffery, etc.). It just seems like the perfect opportunity to move him rather then pay him. They could probably get a late first/early second for him...I have no idea why the Bears haven't sent his ass packing yet.

BeerBaron · 06-26-2012, 12:37 PM

Maybe we've tried and just didn't get a deal worth taking? Who really wants to pay Forte the elite money he wants? He turned down a Jamaal Charles level deal months ago and certainly isn't worth what Peterson/Chris Johnson are getting.

Just let him sit. I would have honestly taken a 2nd for him...I'm guessing that if we did shop him, no one offered that.

A Perfect Score · 06-26-2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Maybe we've tried and just didn't get a deal worth taking? Who really wants to pay Forte the elite money he wants? He turned down a Jamaal Charles level deal months ago and certainly isn't worth what Peterson/Chris Johnson are getting.

Just let him sit. I would have honestly taken a 2nd for him...I'm guessing that if we did shop him, no one offered that.

I didn't want to piss off any Bears fans, but it seems like a legitimate question. Forte is many things, but he isn't a dynamic player. Very solid overall and there's no question he's a damn fine football player, but I wouldn't consider him a gamebreaker. It just seems to me that with Bush in the fold and Cutler suddenly possessing a bevy of potential weapons (I love Marshall and Jeffery outside with Hester out of the slot/backfield), moving Forte for a nice draft pick next season is the best option for the future. Save money, get a pick to draft a god damned offensive lineman, and move forward from there.

BeerBaron · 06-26-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Perfect Score

I didn't want to piss off any Bears fans, but it seems like a legitimate question. Forte is many things, but he isn't a dynamic player. Very solid overall and there's no question he's a damn fine football player, but I wouldn't consider him a gamebreaker. It just seems to me that with Bush in the fold and Cutler suddenly possessing a bevy of potential weapons (I love Marshall and Jeffery outside with Hester out of the slot/backfield), moving Forte for a nice draft pick next season is the best option for the future. Save money, get a pick to draft a god damned offensive lineman, and move forward from there.

Earl Bennett is going to be the biggest slot beneficiary of the improved play outside. He can be a slimy underneath threat in that role and Cutler has great chemistry with him. (Too both neither was healthy at the same time for much of last year.)

Razor · 06-26-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Maybe we've tried and just didn't get a deal worth taking? Who really wants to pay Forte the elite money he wants? He turned down a Jamaal Charles level deal months ago and certainly isn't worth what Peterson/Chris Johnson are getting.

Just let him sit. I would have honestly taken a 2nd for him...I'm guessing that if we did shop him, no one offered that.

You'd have to think that someone would bite if he could be had for a second. I don't think they're shopping him, but instead they're hoping that he'll come back when the season arrives and get a deal done - or tag him again. If I'm Forté I'm only signing the tender if not getting tagged again is part of the deal like it was with Asante Samuel prior to the 2007 season.

BeerBaron · 06-26-2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

You'd have to think that someone would bite if he could be had for a second. I don't think they're shopping him, but instead they're hoping that he'll come back when the season arrives and get a deal done - or tag him again. If I'm Forté I'm only signing the tender if not getting tagged again is part of the deal like it was with Asante Samuel prior to the 2007 season.

It won't be. That Asante Samuel instance was one of....no more than a couple instances of that happening ever? Meanwhile, we've seen dozens of players tagged over the years with many at risk of being re-tagged again.

Razor · 06-26-2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

It won't be. That Asante Samuel instance was one of....no more than a couple instances of that happening ever? Meanwhile, we've seen dozens of players tagged over the years with many at risk of being re-tagged again.

It's just not a smart move. I get that not many NFL players are rocket scientists, but if they really want to hit FA and get their worth signing the franchise tender is a bad way to go. At least if they're signing it at face value.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-26-2012, 01:25 PM

You're pretty much forced to sign the tender. Not really any way around it anymore.

Razor · 06-26-2012, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

You're pretty much forced to sign the tender. Not really any way around it anymore.

Iirc you still don't have to report before week 10 so if the teams wants your services before that you can always negotiate the terms. That would also mean missing out on the first ten pay check, but if that's a sacrifice you're willing to make I say do it. I don't usually like when people wants a ton of money, but Forté has really carried that offense and hasn't bitched (at least to my knowledge) too much about his rookie deal. This is a guy that deserves to get paid like a top ten back...

K Train · 06-26-2012, 01:28 PM

i think the problem is he wants to get paid like a top 1 or 2 back

Razor · 06-26-2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K Train

i think the problem is he wants to get paid like a top 1 or 2 back

In that case he needs new advisors.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-26-2012, 01:46 PM

The fines are ridiculous for holding out now. I'm pretty sure they start once the teams camp starts.

BeerBaron · 06-26-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

The fines are ridiculous for holding out now. I'm pretty sure they start once the teams camp starts.

For as much as I hate the NBA's soft cap/guaranteed contracts and MLB's.....whatever hell system that is....arbitration?.....I can admit that the NFL players are absolutely SCREWED by their system.

They really only have themselves to blame because they agree to this ****, but it's a hard system to navigate. You basically need to stumble into free agency as a quality player or else you get hit with the tag and are stuck.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-26-2012, 02:00 PM

Franchise tags aren't the worst thing in the world if you can stay healthy. In the NFL that's obviously a huge if but you would do well money wise on that system but yeah the players are the ones who agreed to this so there's not much they can do now.

Complex · 06-26-2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K Train

i think the problem is he wants to get paid like a top 1 or 2 back

He wants to be paid like Foster and Shady.

Micheal Bush is not capable of carrying the workload or hasn't proven he can. IIRC the last 5 games or so he averaged below 4 or 3 YPC.

Vikings4ever · 06-26-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Perfect Score

I didn't want to piss off any Bears fans, but it seems like a legitimate question. Forte is many things, but he isn't a dynamic player. Very solid overall and there's no question he's a damn fine football player, but I wouldn't consider him a gamebreaker. It just seems to me that with Bush in the fold and Cutler suddenly possessing a bevy of potential weapons (I love Marshall and Jeffery outside with Hester out of the slot/backfield), moving Forte for a nice draft pick next season is the best option for the future. Save money, get a pick to draft a god damned offensive lineman, and move forward from there.

I'd say Forte's pretty dynamic. He's got good speed, is a nice receiver out of the backfield (50+ receptions all 4 years of his career), and is very dangerous in the screen game.

The biggest knock on him is the lack of power running between the tackles and at the goal line.

Rosebud · 06-26-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Franchise tags aren't the worst thing in the world if you can stay healthy. In the NFL that's obviously a huge if but you would do well money wise on that system but yeah the players are the ones who agreed to this so there's not much they can do now.

Especially with a guy like Forte, two years of getting tagged gets him more guaranteed money than the long term deal he wanted. That means he only needs to stay healthy for one year for it to work out for him. In a situation like that the franchise tag maybe hell on the nerves, but actually pays the player more.

K Train · 06-26-2012, 03:50 PM

it just seems like you can get a "dynamic" back like forte in the second or third round of any draft....MJD, forte, rice, mccoy, charles, tate, ryan williams, demarco murray, maybe pead and james can keep the streak going. rounds 2 and 3 just seem to be money.

forte is an excellent receiving RB...but quite a few of ^ those guys are too. i just wouldnt tie up too much money in a RB with them being so easy to find lately

b316 · 06-26-2012, 03:53 PM

Also gotta remember can't break the bank on 1 or 2 players, with the cap barely going up this year and next year seems the same thing.

Look for a team like the eagles to be releasing a few players.

WCH · 06-26-2012, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosebud

Especially with a guy like Forte, two years of getting tagged gets him more guaranteed money than the long term deal he wanted. That means he only needs to stay healthy for one year for it to work out for him. In a situation like that the franchise tag maybe hell on the nerves, but actually pays the player more.

And both the Bears and Forte's handlers have basic math skills, and know this. The whole situation makes me think that neither side expects Forte to have two more high-quality years in him before the wheels fall off.

How many times have we seen RBs just suddenly wear out and stop producing?