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Old 03-25-2012, 03:05 PM    (permalink
phlysac
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Originally Posted by Brent View Post
I just want talent on the field. Watching ******* Brett Swain and Kyle Williams try to catch passes was grating. The most successful offenses have stupid amounts of talent on the field, we need that.
Completely agree. That's why I've changed my stance. It just makes sense to me. If Nate Byham is healthy, I'd much rather have 4 TE's on the roster that ALL clearly fit a needed role than 2 FBs of which one has ZERO role at all other than to let every single defensive player know that it's a run.

Role the dice with 1 FB and 4 TEs.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
So your sugessting going even younger? D-Line is solid. Cowboy doesn't miss games. RJF can back-up all 3 positions. When Ray Mac got hurt, RJF filled in and the defense didnt miss a beat. Dobbs and Tukafu are young guys who showed potential and will only improve. There is no 5-Tech, nor NT worth taking at 30. Now if we trade up and we somehow managed to be in a position to grab Poe, I would literally cream my pants. But its not much in the first round as far as D-Line goes that would be much of a improvement over what we already have.
I don't think the Niner's would become significantly younger if they drafted an early round DE. That wasn't the point of my comment anyway.

I think its possible that the depth the Niners brought in last year (Dobbs, Williams and Tukuafu taking on a larger role) doesn't necessarily mean they were players the team is comfortable with, but instead that the Niners had a lot of holes on the team and had to prioritize. I'm not saying I don't like those young players, but I would be extremely uncomfortable if RJF and one of them were playing for significant stretches of time. Smith and Sop are getting old and McDonald has some durability concerns. I think we are kidding ourselves if we don't think DL is a possible high pick this year.

Lets be honest, the Niners have a 7th round pick and 3 undrafted players sitting behind a pro bowl caliber line. Don't tell me the D wouldn't be impacted if we had more significant injuries next year.

BTW, Ray McDonald was injured at times last year, but he only missed one entire game...

I think there are some interesting 3-4 prospects in this year's draft, some in round one and others later on. Kendall Reyes and Devon Still are certainly possibilities at 30.

I just wouldn't rule it out. DL is my dark horse position for the first round pick.

I personally don't want Poe that much. He isn't a natural fit in a two gap scheme.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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Wished Fletcher Cox stood a chance to be there at 30. THEN I'd be all over the "DE at 30" bandwagon as well...




Love me some Fletcher Cox
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:42 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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I was firmly in the "Fleener is too much of a luxury" camp last month. With the addition of Moss and Manningham, 2 players were added that SIGNIFICANTLY stretch the field more than last year's roster. Adding Fleener at #30 doesn't prevent the likelihood of adding more outside speed to the roster in later rounds. I, personally would MUCH rather a combination of Fleener/Streeter than Hill and a 4th round TE.
I think your giving MM and Moss way too much credit. We dont know what we'll get out of Moss. And Im a firm beliver alot of MM production was by product in the run and shoot passing principles which he played under in NY. I would never think we've addressed our WR woes with the addition of those two.

Im just not in the Fleener camp, sorry. I dont see the value he brings to a offense that is already very TE-dependant in the passing game. Moving Walker to more of a H-Back role is still esentially a 3-TE set that wont have much staying power if you dont address the play-making ability on the outside. And no, I dont think MM and Moss have adequtely addressed that. I dont think people watched MM closely with the Giants and excatly how he performed there. I honestly thought Morgan had more potential in this offense than MM. Dont get me wrong, we got great value for MM and at worst, he improves production in the slot. But I don't see this big time playmaker on the outside everyone is painting him to be. I hope he proves me wrong and I'll happily eat crow but the two year deal tells me Baalke isnt so sure either.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Yeh I agree with the above post because NE coach was caught saying in the SB lets force MM to beat us, implying that he really isn't that good.

The 49ers should draft at least one WR, but if they don't because their guy isn't there then at least we have the veterans to fall back on. If they do draft a WR, then hopefully they will find a way to get him on the field. At least now we have depth, and we won't have to see Brett Swain on the field.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
I think your giving MM and Moss way too much credit. We dont know what we'll get out of Moss. And Im a firm beliver alot of MM production was by product in the run and shoot passing principles which he played under in NY. I would never think we've addressed our WR woes with the addition of those two.

Im just not in the Fleener camp, sorry. I dont see the value he brings to a offense that is already very TE-dependant in the passing game. Moving Walker to more of a H-Back role is still esentially a 3-TE set that wont have much staying power if you dont address the play-making ability on the outside. And no, I dont think MM and Moss have adequtely addressed that. I dont think people watched MM closely with the Giants and excatly how he performed there. I honestly thought Morgan had more potential in this offense than MM. Dont get me wrong, we got great value for MM and at worst, he improves production in the slot. But I don't see this big time playmaker on the outside everyone is painting him to be. I hope he proves me wrong and I'll happily eat crow but the two year deal tells me Baalke isnt so sure either.
You concerns about Manningham are valid. Usually WR's with the type of track record that Manningham has had aren't successful, but we also don't know what type of premium Harbaugh/Baalke place on TEs. IMO I think with the mismatches they create a player, like Fleener, is more valued to the staff compared to a WR. Greg Cossell had a few tweets on this earlier today:
Quote:
Asked about Fleener. Fluid route runner. Lateral quicks. Short area burst. Ability to attack vertical seams. Reminded me of HOU O. Daniels.

2 TE personnel, if both can catch, forces defense to declare. Do they play base, or nickel? Teams finally began treating Hernandez as WR.

Do receiving TE, even if not great LOS blockers, increase in value? Does Fleener, for instance, make sense for 49ers in 1st rd? Pair w/Davis
It also wouldn't surprise me if they feel that with the addition of Moss and Manningham that they have done enough to increase the speed on the outside along with what Vernon does down the middle of the field. Baalke also said at the draft he feels it is a pretty deep WR class:

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/02...rt-at-the-top/
Quote:
On Thursday at the NFL combine, though, general manager Trent Baalke said the wide-receiver pool is deep this year and a few of the more anonymous names will turn into productive pros.

“Some of those guys at the bottom end are going to end up being good players,” Baalke said. “You got to find out which of that group at the bottom of those 15 or 20 guys, which three or four are really going to springboard up and improve as a professional? That’s why we’re all here, to try to find that nugget that’s going to lead us to one of those guys.”
I liked Phlysac's point from earlier in the thread:
Quote:
Adding Fleener at #30 doesn't prevent the likelihood of adding more outside speed to the roster in later rounds. I, personally would MUCH rather a combination of Fleener/Streeter than Hill and a 4th round TE.

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Old 03-26-2012, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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I don't think we'll take a DE early. McDonald has 4 years left on his contract, Smith has 2. And if Smith plays at even half the level he played in during 2011, i can't see us not extending him. So any high pick at DE would ride the bench for at least 2 years, maybe more, unless there's a significant injury to one of our starters. I could see us taking a mid to late round DE for depth, but i think the staff will ask- do we like this players potential over RJF and/or Dobbs? Dobbs was really impressive in pre-season but non-existent in games. Are the coaches confident he can make that transition to the regular season next year?

I could see us taking a NT early, provided the value. Sopoaga's contract is up next year. And entering 2013 (the 1st year of a new deal) Sopoaga will be 32. I don't think they'll sink long-term money into him.

If i had to rank our draftable needs this year (but not necessarily that we draft in this same order), i'd say

1- OG
2- WR
3- C
4- NT
5- RB
6- TE
7- OLB (Pass Rusher)
8- S

NT is a wildcard though...do we like Ian Williams potential? Do we want RJF to be the future NT? (His contract is also up after 2012).
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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You make valid points WWBBD. And not because of Cosell, that guy talks out of his ass way too much for my liking. If Fleener is the pick, I would have no choice to get on board. Obviously that would mean Harbaalke valued his skill-set in this offense. But you dont neccesarily need a Fleener-type to do help the offense. Just a tall, natural pass-catching TE that could sit down and find the soft spots in a zone would be the perfect compliment to the skill-set of VD/Walker. A Jason Witten type would be perfect mesh with the uber athletic guys we already have. We have one of those already in Reuland. And another one of those guys can be added later.

And I think we have a better version of Hernandez in Walker. But NE lends more heavily on their passing offense and they use alot of spread principles, which allows Hernandez to get favorable mis-matches when he splits out wide. If Walker were in NE, he would have similar numbers/impact in their offense. I just think the way he was used here(left in back-field alot on 3rd downs to help in pass-protection), ppl tend to think he isnt as good as Hernandez, but he is.

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Old 03-26-2012, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
I think your giving MM and Moss way too much credit. We dont know what we'll get out of Moss. And Im a firm beliver alot of MM production was by product in the run and shoot passing principles which he played under in NY. I would never think we've addressed our WR woes with the addition of those two.
Ability to stretch the field, and ability to be a game-changing WR are mutually exclusive. I want game-breaking ability out of the WRs. However, what Manningham and Moss bring is simply the ability to force CBs to turn and run. That alone, will open the center of the field.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:11 PM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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Ability to stretch the field, and ability to be a game-changing WR are mutually exclusive. I want game-breaking ability out of the WRs. However, what Manningham and Moss bring is simply the ability to force CBs to turn and run. That alone, will open the center of the field.
I'm not sold on the ability of either to do acheive this though. Moss two years ago, absolutely....Moss now, remains to be seen. MM, I never viewed as a deep threat. He's not a guy who scares a DB with his foot speed. What I like about MM is he's a savy route runner and he can make some tough grabs, something we haven't had on the outside here in a good little while. There's a reason Nicks and Cruz came along and made more of a impact. They're better athletes along the outside to go along with having a better understanding of the scheme they were using. MM was going against nickel DBs most of the time, as he was the third option behind Nicks and Cruz. I know BBD has stated he feels MM will thrived in a more simplified scheme like ours but my worry is he'll get handcuffed by #1 DBs.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brent View Post
I just want talent on the field. Watching ******* Brett Swain and Kyle Williams try to catch passes was grating. The most successful offenses have stupid amounts of talent on the field, we need that.
I think Williams has plenty of talent. I dont think lack of talent was the underlying problem. Alot of it had to do with the scheme and play-calling. And a ultra-conserative approach to 3rd downs. Hopefully a complete off-season helps iron out some of the kinks in the scheme. Biggest problem was the lack of depth after guys like Morgan and Braylon were sidelined.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:11 AM    (permalink
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So you all have made some decent points about Fleener, so I made a mock to see how much I could stomach it. I THINK I would be okay with this one:

1. Coby Fleener TE, Stanford
2. Chris Polk RB, Washington
3. Brandon Washington OG, Miami
4. Tommy Streeter WR, Miami
5. Hebron Fangupo NT, BYU
6. Julian Miller OLB, West Virginia
7. Logan Herrell DE, Fresno St.

Still would prefer Hill in the first though. I just don't think they will grab him. The lack of a Niner scout at the Georgia Tech. pro day made me feel like they weren't interested.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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Going over some of the Pro Day results from various schools and Johnson Bademosi just jumped off the page. Great numbers. Was never that impressed with him on the field but seeing the success of two other Stanford products whose film I wasnt too high on in Sherman and Baldwin has me keeping a open mind this year. Hope Harbaalke made note of this and has Bademosi on their radar. At worst he's a prime canidate for some STs consideration since Spillman's role in the secondary is likely to increase.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by thediggler3030 View Post
So you all have made some decent points about Fleener, so I made a mock to see how much I could stomach it. I THINK I would be okay with this one:

1. Coby Fleener TE, Stanford
2. Chris Polk RB, Washington
3. Brandon Washington OG, Miami
4. Tommy Streeter WR, Miami
5. Hebron Fangupo NT, BYU
6. Julian Miller OLB, West Virginia
7. Logan Herrell DE, Fresno St.

Still would prefer Hill in the first though. I just don't think they will grab him. The lack of a Niner scout at the Georgia Tech. pro day made me feel like they weren't interested.
Would be very happy about the top-4
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Would be very happy about the top-4
Not a fan of Fangupo? The guy has major upside.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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Not a fan of Fangupo? The guy has major upside.
I don't think Fangio wants 2-gappers, either at 0 or 5 tech. He's short, short arms, yet doesn't get a ton of leverage. He's old. Mission work for 2 years out of highschool. 4 years of college plus a transfer year.

You're absolutely right about his upside. I'm just not "excited" about such a project at nose when we've barely even seen RJF and Ian Williams see the field yet.

I wouldn't be upset if he were selected though.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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I don't think Fangio wants 2-gappers, either at 0 or 5 tech. He's short, short arms, yet doesn't get a ton of leverage. He's old. Mission work for 2 years out of highschool. 4 years of college plus a transfer year.

You're absolutely right about his upside. I'm just not "excited" about such a project at nose when we've barely even seen RJF and Ian Williams see the field yet.

I wouldn't be upset if he were selected though.
Fair enough. His age is a concern. Who are some late rounders you're looking at?

I really like following some high upside late round guys and seeing where they end up. Though the Niners seem to draft unknowns at the end of the draft some I don't have a ton of hope that they will draft the guys I am looking at. lol.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:26 AM    (permalink
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Who are some late rounders you're looking at?
Considering how deep this WR class is, I am hoping that we can get T.Y. Hilton in the 6th. I love potential as a KR/PR and slot WR (Yes, I know that is not a need). Far more intriguing than keeping Kyle Williams around. And, because I am a total homer: Coryell Judie and Jeff Fuller. Though, the argument could be made that Terrence Frederick had a better season than Judie this past year.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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Considering how deep this WR class is, I am hoping that we can get T.Y. Hilton in the 6th. I love potential as a KR/PR and slot WR (Yes, I know that is not a need). Far more intriguing than keeping Kyle Williams around. And, because I am a total homer: Coryell Judie and Jeff Fuller. Though, the argument could be made that Terrence Frederick had a better season than Judie this past year.
I LOVE T.Y. Hilton. He reminds me of Emmanuel Sanders. I think he goes in the 4th or 5th at the latest though, and most likely the 3rd.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Here is a list of guys I see as a possibilty of being drafted @ 30, if they are there:

WR -- Wright, Hill, Jeffery (MAYBE)
TE -- Fleener
OG -- Konz, Zeitler

DT/DE -- Still
DE/OLB -- Branch, Perry

A couple weeks ago I would've had CB and RB, but they filled those in FA.

Anyone else I'm forgetting?
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Here is a list of guys I see as a possibilty of being drafted @ 30, if they are there:

WR -- Wright, Hill, Jeffery (MAYBE)
TE -- Fleener
OG -- Konz, Zeitler

DT/DE -- Still
DE/OLB -- Branch, Perry

A couple weeks ago I would've had CB and RB, but they filled those in FA.

Anyone else I'm forgetting?
Not "forgetting" people per se. We can only guess Baalke's board. Remember how shocked many/most of us were with the Culliver pick?

A name that is intriguing to me at #30 (whom I would've called you crazy last week) is Midwestern State LT Amini Silatolu.
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by edgrenade View Post
Here is a list of guys I see as a possibilty of being drafted @ 30, if they are there:

WR -- Wright, Hill, Jeffery (MAYBE)
TE -- Fleener
OG -- Konz, Zeitler

DT/DE -- Still
DE/OLB -- Branch, Perry

A couple weeks ago I would've had CB and RB, but they filled those in FA.

Anyone else I'm forgetting?
I would add Kendall Reyes.

The guy dominated at the Senior Bowl, surprisingly as a passrusher. Which just adds to the fact that he is dominant against the run.

He then blew up the combine with 36 bench press reps and then ran an unofficial 4.79 (4.95 official) 40 yard dash.

I think he has a higher upside than Still.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm a big fan of Reyes, I just figured he's more of a 2nd rounder
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:17 PM    (permalink
Brent
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I've come to terms with the pick being Fleener, and I'm quite okay with it.
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Old 03-31-2012, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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I've come to terms with the pick being Fleener, and I'm quite okay with it.
You never know though. I mean last year, how many of our picks did people correctly predict? Even when we were on the clock at 7 i was expecting Quinn or Prince. Aldon came out of nowhere. The only picks that you could maybe see coming were Kaepernick and Ronald Johnson.
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