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Old 03-02-2012, 11:58 PM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
Martin isn't in the same stratosphere athletically as Trent Williams.
Trent Williams wasn't really good himself. #Overrated.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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Raw in what way? What technical deficiencies do you see in his game?
Inconsistent, gets by on athleticism instead of technique, didn't dominate inferior competition.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
He's not gonna go #4 overall either. He'll probably be a top 15 pick though.
I pity the team that takes him in the top 25. I don't understand the appeal of a finesse tackle without great feet or athleticism. Against the two legit NFL caliber pass rushers he faced the last two years, he schooled by both Brooks Reed and Nick Perry.

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to play devil's advocate, he doesn't have good technique, not great use of hands. lots of things that get taught to players in the NFL that causes them to explode into all-pro players like Jason Pierre-Paul.
He's actually one of the most technically sound NT prospects I've watched. He plays with great leverage, uses his hands to separate and works laterally along the line while staying square to hold his gap responsibilities. Not the mention that he has one of the best counter moves of any player in this draft with his up-field rip into his inside spin.

Poe is a guy who I've been focusing on since early last year so I made a point of watching several Memphis games this year. It just is annoying that EVERY smaller school prospect who has a very good triangle numbers is automatically considered raw. You look at guys with Still and Worthy who would probably be just effective if they had nubs for hands but since they went to major programs they aren't described raw every time someone mentions their name. I'm not singling anyone out because it's everywhere but it's frustrating because it's just a form of lazy "scouting".


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Originally Posted by bucfan12 View Post
Trent Williams wasn't really good himself. #Overrated.
Jonathan Martin is pretty much a poor-man's Trent Williams in every way. And regardless of what you thought of Trent as a player, he's still arguably the most athletic offensive lineman in the league.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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Ok, so is Poe a better prospect than Haloti Ngata?
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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Inconsistent, gets by on athleticism instead of technique, didn't dominate inferior competition.
Before Tackle blew up my spot. I agree with a lot of what he said in regards to Poe. He was utilized as a finesse 3-4 DE used to control the gaps while being doubled on the regular. That defense was awful and still had a guy who had averaged some of the most TFLs per game over the last two years in Frank Trotter. Poe's ability to take on multiple defenders freed him among other players, even on a such weak defense. His ability to extend arms, use hands and control one/two OLs at once is greater than many other highly rated DL's over the last 5 years. What he was not asked to do is free lance and wreak havoc beyond the LOS, raw prospects do that with out doing the above referenced skills. If he can freestyle out there at times and has the ability to just go crazy then he can become a monster. His fundamental base is much greater than someone who needs 3-4 years to learn the game. He knows the subtle nuances of gap control, hand placement and not being engulfed by more than one defender. Things that take raw prospects years to learn.
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<TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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Ok, so is Poe a better prospect than Haloti Ngata?
No one said that, Ngata at Oregon had those gap controlling, hand placement abilities but also was allowed to cause that havoc beyond the LOS. As Tackle and I have discussed, when was Poe truly asked to just go nuts and cause havoc? It seems he was contained based upon the scheme and the shittiness of the rest of the D to control gaps, patrol the LOS rather than penetrate it to occupy blockers and allow that ****** to try to make plays.
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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I got my money of Zach Brown, Casey Hayward, Stephen Hill moving, Whiteney Marcilus INTO The First

And Dont'a Hightower, Dre Kirkpatrick and Courtney upshaw moving out (because of the Transitional DE's)
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:26 AM    (permalink
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No one said that, Ngata at Oregon had those gap controlling, hand placement abilities but also was allowed to cause that havoc beyond the LOS. As Tackle and I have discussed, when was Poe truly asked to just go nuts and cause havoc? It seems he was contained based upon the scheme and the shittiness of the rest of the D to control gaps, patrol the LOS rather than penetrate it to occupy blockers and allow that ****** to try to make plays.
I haven't watched as much Poe as you guys. Those were just my initial impressions. I just would have liked to seen some more production when he is playing the type of teams as Memphis did. I mean what are you drafting this guy to do exactly? Play 34 DE and stuff the run? Why draft him so high? He had one sack last year and it was against Southern Methodist. I believe he had 8.5 TFLs including that sack. Now I know stats for a DL don't tell the whole story. I just think that when you have to explain at length why a guy didn't make plays is when I start to question things.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:51 AM    (permalink
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My risers and where i think they'll end up going.

Stephen Hill - Mid first
Fletcher Cox - Mid to early first
Cordy Glenn - Mid to early first
Kendall Reyes - Late first to early second
Peter Konz - Mid first
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:54 AM    (permalink
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I haven't watched as much Poe as you guys. Those were just my initial impressions. I just would have liked to seen some more production when he is playing the type of teams as Memphis did. I mean what are you drafting this guy to do exactly? Play 34 DE and stuff the run? Why draft him so high? He had one sack last year and it was against Southern Methodist. I believe he had 8.5 TFLs including that sack. Now I know stats for a DL don't tell the whole story. I just think that when you have to explain at length why a guy didn't make plays is when I start to question things.
Richard Seymour had 1 sack his final year in college as well. Keep looking at stats...
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:16 AM    (permalink
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Michael Floyd will go top 7.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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Michael Floyd will go top 7.
The jags wont take him. Dolphins or Rams will get him IMO.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Before Tackle blew up my spot. I agree with a lot of what he said in regards to Poe. He was utilized as a finesse 3-4 DE used to control the gaps while being doubled on the regular. That defense was awful and still had a guy who had averaged some of the most TFLs per game over the last two years in Frank Trotter. Poe's ability to take on multiple defenders freed him among other players, even on a such weak defense. His ability to extend arms, use hands and control one/two OLs at once is greater than many other highly rated DL's over the last 5 years. What he was not asked to do is free lance and wreak havoc beyond the LOS, raw prospects do that with out doing the above referenced skills. If he can freestyle out there at times and has the ability to just go crazy then he can become a monster. His fundamental base is much greater than someone who needs 3-4 years to learn the game. He knows the subtle nuances of gap control, hand placement and not being engulfed by more than one defender. Things that take raw prospects years to learn.
I'm not a huge fan of Poe. I like certain aspects of his game. But he doesn't play like a guy who is 340 lbs+. He actually plays like a guy who is about 300 lbs. Against the quality of opponents he faced I would expect much more dominance, not just showing up on the stat sheet. He can defeat double blocks, congratulations, but that's what you're going to get in the NFL only with much better players. But he got single blocked too often as well. A guy his size playing against inferior competition should not be getting blocked by one person.

That being said he was put in a horrible situation. The way he was used at Memphis really didn't play to his skills. This is a guy who measured in at 6'3 346 lbs at the combine yet you see him running the arc against offensive tackles. I get that he's an athletic freak but don't take him outside the tackle box where he can do the most damage.

I don't see the consistent ability to anchor in the run game to be a dominant NT yet. He may be better in a Haolti Ngata type role, especially for a while.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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I saw this linked to Tony Pauline's twitter. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it is basically rankings compiled from teams' real draft boards throughout the NFL more or less. What is so interesting is that it backs up a lot of what I said in the original post of this thread - so that can mean one or both of these things: my info is legit, AND/OR they got the info from the same place of origin as me. Either way , this is great insight. You're welcome :P

http://www.draftinsider.net/blog/?p=6198

the combines are done and now we moves into pro-days. NFL draft boards are taking shape. So who are to top 33 players gracing draft boards. We’ve gotten some insight from around the league and this is how it stacks up for teams.


1.Andrew Luck-QB-Stanford
2.Robert Griffin-QB-Baylor
3.Dontari Poe-NT-Memphis
4.Melvin Ingram-OLB-South Carolina
5.Trent Richardson-RB- Alabama
6. Matt Kalil-OT-USC
7-Justin Blackmon-WR-Oklahoma State
8.Morris Claiborne-CB-LSU
9.Fletcher Cox-DT-Mississippi State
10.Quinton Coples-DE-North Carolina
11.David DeCastro-OG-Stanford
12.Dre’ Kirkpatrick-CB-Alabama
13.Michael Brockers-DT-LSU
14.Jonathan Martin-OT-Stanford
15.Michael Floyd-WR- Notre Dame
16.Cordy Glenn-OL-Georgia
17.Devon Still-DT- Penn State
18. Whitney Mercilus-DE- Illinois
19.Coby Fleener-TE- Stanford
20.Nick Perry-DE- USC
21.Luke Kuechly-LB- Boston College
22.Kevin Zeitler-OG- Wisconsin
23.Ryan Tannehill-QB- Texas A&M
24.Doug Martin-RB- Boise State
25.Jerel Worthy-DT- Michigan State
26.Bobby Wagner-LB- Utah State
27.Stephon Gilmore-CB- South Carolina
28.Kendall Wright-WR- Baylor
29.Dwayne Allen-TE- Clemson
30.Donta Hightower-LB- Alabama
31.Kendall Reyes-DT- UConn
32.Stephen Hill-WR- Georgia Tech
33.Riley Reiff-OG- Iowa

Notes



- Stanford has four players in the top 32.

- Courtney Upshaw and Mark Barron are not ranked in the top 32.

- Janoris Jenkins does not make the list.

- Reiterating what we posted from Indianapolis, more and more teams starting to grade Riley Reiff as a guard.

- This is not our list, rather a list from what a number of teams board(s) look like; don’t kill the messenger!!
I have grave doubts that it is information gotten from real NFL team's draft boards, one team is possible to crack if you have a great contact who trusts you but multiple teams, no way.

Here's Gil Brandt's top 100, I suspect it is pre combine, maybe even earlier, from the Dallas Cowboys. He has always had a solid contact within that organization after he worked for them for years.
Blackmon at #13 seems reasonable since the Cowboys don't have any needs at WR.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/090...ing-to-combine
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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I remember a few years ago we had that picture of the Cowboys draft board. Every teams' board is really different, and I don't think they're all as top secret as it seems. THere are dozens of people who access to stuff like that in an organization.

And like I said, the stuff from draftinsider's list backs up the stuff I heard before, so it's at least legit in that way.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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I've only heard of 2 incidents where insider information was likely obtained, Gil Brandt was the first and Rick Gosselin was the second. These 2 guys predict on a constant basis 28/29 correct first rounders which gives a lot of credence to their boards.
I think this stuff is guarded like top secret and anybody caught would lose their job and be blackballed from the NFL, so I cannot believe for a second that draftinsider's list is anything but their own concoctionn. Gotton from many team boards is just wishful thinking on their part since their final predictions don't come close to Brandt's or Gosselin's.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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believe what you want. i'm pretty sure my info is legit, and the fact that this thing came out on draftinsider.net just days after i got mine lends some creedence to it. No way is that their own concoction not based on inside info, b/c i heard similar things from a very legit source. ("This is not our list, rather a list from what a number of teams board(s) look like; don’t kill the messenger") draft boards change between now and april anyways, and teams don't always take the top guy on their boards.

brandt and gosselein are two of the best - and they both get their stuff from sources in the Cowboys' organization. However if you look at Gosselein's mock drafts, they always are terrible until his final one, which is always the most accurate one out there.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
believe what you want. i'm pretty sure my info is legit, and the fact that this thing came out on draftinsider.net just days after i got mine lends some creedence to it. No way is that their own concoction not based on inside info, b/c i heard similar things from a very legit source. ("This is not our list, rather a list from what a number of teams board(s) look like; don’t kill the messenger") draft boards change between now and april anyways, and teams don't always take the top guy on their boards.

brandt and gosselein are two of the best - and they both get their stuff from sources in the Cowboys' organization. However if you look at Gosselein's mock drafts, they always are terrible until his final one, which is always the most accurate one out there.
Gosselin's mocks are terrible prior to a few days before the draft because he doesan't get his contact's information till a week before the draft. Before that, he is on his own with the obvious results.

I look at your list and it doesn't ring true to me. Luck, RG111 and Kalil stand out as clearly the top 3 prospects in this year's draft, then there is a falloff to the next tier. Having Poe, Ingram and Richardson ahead of Kalil just doesn't seem possible so again I doubt the validity of this board.

Then I see Kuechly at #21, Wagner, Kendall Wright, and Dwayne Allen still in round 1, and Reiff at #32 and this board seems absurd. There just isn't a ring of truth to it.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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every teams board is quite different as we all know. Some teams tailor their boards to certain needs for example. Stuff like this that comes out at this time of year always seems a little crazy, if you look at the rankings of different scouts and draft experts you similar things. It doesn't mean that Ingram and Poe are gonna go in the top 5.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Dont'a Hightower is going to climb into the mid 1st round.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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every teams board is quite different as we all know. Some teams tailor their boards to certain needs for example. Stuff like this that comes out at this time of year always seems a little crazy, if you look at the rankings of different scouts and draft experts you similar things. It doesn't mean that Ingram and Poe are gonna go in the top 5.
Yeah, even if you could get complete access to every team's draft board, averaging the rankings of each player isn't going to give you anything close to a picture of what the draft is going to look at. Teams are looking for very different things in terms of defensive front seven players and offensive linemen (for example) depending on the schemes that they run. A guy like Cordy Glenn is going to project much better in a man-blocking scheme, whereas a guy like Peter Konz is going to project much better in an angle-blocking scheme and the the other scheme is going to look down on the other guy because it's a bad fit. Fletcher Cox projects better if you're looking at playing him at the 3-technique, whereas Michael Brockers looks better if you plan on playing him at the 5-technique. Alameda Ta'amu looks much better to 3-4 teams, and Luke Kuechly looks much better to 4-3 teams, etc.

Some people might not have a draftable grade on Janoris Jenkins because he's a character risk, some teams might not have a draftable grade on Janoris Jenkins because he's shorter than 5'10". Other teams might have him as the top rated CB.

The thing about Reiff only makes sense if you look at averaging draft boards, there were teams two years ago who had second or third round grades on Bryan Bulaga, but that didn't stop him from going at #23 because somebody liked him enough to take him in the first round, and it only takes one team. After all, I'm pretty sure there were teams with day 3 grades on Tim Tebow.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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yes, my points exactly.

also, if draftinsider.net was going to make this stuff up I doubt it would be as creative as this one with Ingram and Poe being ranked really high and no sign of Upshaw or Barron. That and the fact that it matches up with what I heard gives it creedence. And Tony Pauline thinks it's legit.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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Am I the only one who thinks Blackmon could have a Crabtree like fall. Most all of us have him as a top 5/6 pick in this draft, but I think if he doesn't impress with his 40 he could drop into the 7 or lower range. Miami could be a spot where he gets drafted if he falls, Philbin will want the elite talent level at WR he had in Green Bay and Blackmon and Marshall would be great to see.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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I could see Blackmon falling but I don't think it'd be very far. Probably near where Crabtree was picked.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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Am I the only one who thinks Blackmon could have a Crabtree like fall. Most all of us have him as a top 5/6 pick in this draft, but I think if he doesn't impress with his 40 he could drop into the 7 or lower range. Miami could be a spot where he gets drafted if he falls, Philbin will want the elite talent level at WR he had in Green Bay and Blackmon and Marshall would be great to see.
To further this point, I could see a scenario where Blackmon isn't the first wr selected. Even though Floyd had some character concerns, some teams might like his size and speed more intriguing. Strange things happen on draft day. No one thought DHB was a top 10 pick but it happens.
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