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Old 03-05-2012, 08:18 AM    (permalink
descendency
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
When Tony Dungy shows me his medical degree, I'll consider his medical opinion on when exactly Manning's neck became an issue.
God told him. No medical degree required.

edit: I have to wonder if anyone has a list of former Saints players (under the Gregg Williams D) that were recently released/traded/allowed to walk.

I bet the "source" is on that list.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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Yeah I'm not buying the whole 'everyone does this' thing. The same argument was made for NE back in the day and even though alot of people basically confirmed yeah we did this, nobody cared. Saints got caught like the Pats did and gotta pay the piper.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
When Tony Dungy shows me his medical degree, I'll consider his medical opinion on when exactly Manning's neck became an issue.
Not a whole lot better, but I've heard Archie say the same thing. Peyton too I think. I'm guessing at some point a doctor was talked to.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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I don't know about linking this to Manning's problems; but if we're going to make that sort of speculation, it looks equally bad that Favre went from having one of his top-5 seasons to being completely inept just a few months later. Everybody assumed that time caught up with him (and I still do assume that -- the guy was a grandfather, for crying out loud) but the media could easily spin this as "the Saints bounty system essentially ended the career of the NFL's Iron Man" or some such drama. If I were a journalist, I'd make that connection and write that story just to get more pageviews.

I think that the real story is going to be Payton's relationship with Ornstein, and Ornstein's apparent contributions to bounties. This could get a lot worse before it gets better.

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Old 03-05-2012, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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Evidence just keeps going further and further back for Gregg Williams. He did it clear back when he was with the Oilers.

So, from Oilers to Titans to Bills (per Coy Wire) to Redskins (per Matt Bowen) to the Saints (per this whole investigation.)

So I guess like any big scandal, as more evidence comes out, things get more grim by the day.

To recap:

Williams' teams have had bounty systems since the early 90s. Regardless of your opinion on the "intent to injure vs. playing hard" side of it, the bounties themselves are against NFL rules no matter what they're paid out for. (You could pay a guy $100 per batted pass for example, which injures no one, but is still against the rules.)

Sean Payton apparently knew about it, but did nothing to stop it. Not horrible by itself, but he'll still receive some punishment. Where Payton's real problem comes in is that his agent, Mike Ornstein, reportedly put up his own bounty money on two occasions. Since he was technically a "marketing agent," I could see the NFL finding that to be dangerously close to gambling and could dish out even more heavy handed punishment against Payton. (Ornstein is actually already in jail for scalping Superbowl tickets and selling fraudulent game worn jerseys...not going to help anyone's case here.)

And Mickey Loomis also reportedly lied and attempted to mislead the NFL investigators who were on this case. He also apparently lied to owner Tom Benson about it who promised the NFL full cooperation.

**** is just getting worse all the time. Depending on just how true and how serious some of this is, could the NFL hand out a "death penalty" to the Saints? Obviously they wouldn't kill the organization, but heavy fines, banning the GM and head coach, and taking away a year or twos worth of draft picks would probably cripple them badly.

All around a bad situation. And the "everyone does it" argument works about as well here as it would in a real court of law. Which is "not at all."
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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Just out of interest, are tackles round the neck legal in the NFL? Obviously horse-collars are frowned upon but I'm curious about otherwise...
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
Evidence just keeps going further and further back for Gregg Williams. He did it clear back when he was with the Oilers.

So, from Oilers to Titans to Bills (per Coy Wire) to Redskins (per Matt Bowen) to the Saints (per this whole investigation.)

So I guess like any big scandal, as more evidence comes out, things get more grim by the day.

To recap:

Williams' teams have had bounty systems since the early 90s. Regardless of your opinion on the "intent to injure vs. playing hard" side of it, the bounties themselves are against NFL rules no matter what they're paid out for. (You could pay a guy $100 per batted pass for example, which injures no one, but is still against the rules.)

Sean Payton apparently knew about it, but did nothing to stop it. Not horrible by itself, but he'll still receive some punishment. Where Payton's real problem comes in is that his agent, Mike Ornstein, reportedly put up his own bounty money on two occasions. Since he was technically a "marketing agent," I could see the NFL finding that to be dangerously close to gambling and could dish out even more heavy handed punishment against Payton. (Ornstein is actually already in jail for scalping Superbowl tickets and selling fraudulent game worn jerseys...not going to help anyone's case here.)

And Mickey Loomis also reportedly lied and attempted to mislead the NFL investigators who were on this case. He also apparently lied to owner Tom Benson about it who promised the NFL full cooperation.

**** is just getting worse all the time. Depending on just how true and how serious some of this is, could the NFL hand out a "death penalty" to the Saints? Obviously they wouldn't kill the organization, but heavy fines, banning the GM and head coach, and taking away a year or twos worth of draft picks would probably cripple them badly.

All around a bad situation. And the "everyone does it" argument works about as well here as it would in a real court of law. Which is "not at all."
The NFL would be stupid to do something so drastic as a "death penalty" type punishment. For a league that is thriving largely based on the parity model and fans' belief that their team could be next even in a worst to first type fashion, it just seems stupid to handicap a team so severely.

Personally, I'd say the franchise tag is untouchable. The CBA ramifications are too tricky to even bother, and that's good b/c the fanbase gets punished way too severely with a lousy QB.

Big $$$ fines in the 'hood of 2M (team + players + coaches) with a pair of draft picks (2nd this year, 1st next?) and the potential for suspensions for coaches & players (4-8 games?) would be my guess, though potentially more for Williams since it's clearly following him throughout his career.

I'm not terribly interested in the back & forth of it, but I still feel it warrants note that every mention of this on any network is not pay for performance, but simply "Bonus $$ was paid for injurying players." (<-- soon to be an actual smiley??)
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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The bigger issue was already mentioned. A 3rd party (or at least second party) was funding this under the table.

If that gets out into the mainstream, the NFL will have no choice but to eliminate quite a few people from the mix.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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The bigger issue was already mentioned. A 3rd party (or at least second party) was funding this under the table.

If that gets out into the mainstream, the NFL will have no choice but to eliminate quite a few people from the mix.
Yeah, that's the part I meant when I talked about the harshness level of a death penalty.

A marketing agent doing it is bad, bad news. In the NFL's eyes, someone like that isn't all that far from gamblers doing it.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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I say take away the Rams 1st this year for hiring him :)
WHAT THE ****....Oh, it's fenikz saying this...hmmm...Arizona Cardinals fan...NFC West...I get it.

Nevermind!!
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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Should have taken the Saints franchise tag away which likely would allow Brees to hit FA. :D
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Should have taken the Saints franchise tag away which likely would allow Brees to hit FA. :D
I know you are kind of joking but that wouldn't work. The NFL needs to establish a baseline for this kind of violation, something repeatable. Taking the tag away the year the team in question the year they need to franchise their QB would not have the same impact on a team that wasn't going to use the tag, or was planning to use it on a kicker.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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So how much would someone get for tearing someone else's ACL?

I wonder how much Kimo Van Olhoffen got.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how the NFL will be able to come down on the players. They would ultimately have to prove that the added incentive of the bounty actually changed the outcome of a given football play, or more specifically a player's approach to a given football play. Short of having players admit to it, a very hard task.

Coaches and other management types, on the other hand, will be beaten to a pulp by the NFL as the promise or act of reward (or however you want to call it) for pre-defined results is easily proven.

Roger Goodell will absolutely crush Williams (I think lifetime ban) and the Saints organization. I can see Payton and Loomis suspended for at least a year if they had knowledge of these acts. Goodell is going to look at this as a massive tarnish on his legacy as commissioner, and he will punish people for compromising it.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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So how much would someone get for tearing someone else's ACL?

I wonder how much Kimo Van Olhoffen got.
Didn't he retire soon after that hit? Must've gotten paid bigtime.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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WHAT THE ****....Oh, it's fenikz saying this...hmmm...Arizona Cardinals fan...NFC West...I get it.

Nevermind!!
Yeah, I nearly went went through my computer when I read that at first. Yes, I have anger issues. But its him, so he is joking.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Saints bounty pay chart has been released:

Knockout =$1,500
Cart-Off = $1,000
Missed Tackle= $2,000
Blown Coverage = $3,000
Dropped INT = $3,500
Jumping Offsides = $4,000
Failure to stop Alex Smith Bootleg = $10,000
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Damn Bert, looks like we had the same idea at the sametime.

GET THE **** OUTTA MY HEAD
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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Damn Bert, looks like we had the same idea at the sametime.

GET THE **** OUTTA MY HEAD
It's what we do at the FBI.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Apparently Madden 13 will improve their coaching bonuses over previous Madden.

Now, if your team has Gregg Williams, players will receive +1 hit power and will be allowed to take cheap shots without penalty.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Someone in here correctly called it that ESPN would use "bounty-gate". I really hate that you're right. How ******* stupid.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i still have no idea why anyone watches that channel, it's not like this is new or remotely surprising. espn is to sports what an mtv jersey shore marathon is to music.
Pauly D makes some awesome tunes YO!
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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I still find PTI mildly entertaining. It's the only thing I'll watch on the channel though.
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