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Old 03-05-2012, 05:50 PM    (permalink
OzTitan
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Williams' teams have had bounty systems since the early 90s. Regardless of your opinion on the "intent to injure vs. playing hard" side of it, the bounties themselves are against NFL rules no matter what they're paid out for. (You could pay a guy $100 per batted pass for example, which injures no one, but is still against the rules.)
With this in mind then, will the punishment be proportional to violations of a rule about hidden payment schemes, or will it extend all the way to include intent to injure, or at least encouragement to injure? And if it does, how does the NFL address the possibility (probability?) that there are countless other ways existing in the NFL derived from every day incentives like keeping your roster spot, working for a new contract, and generally impressing your bosses which also encourage a mentality of knocking out key opponents, which is effectively achieving the same outcome?

Or is punishing offenders of a easily traceable and poorly thought out payment system enough for the NFL to save face, which is what they really care about?
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Saints' team meeting.

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Old 03-05-2012, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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A player who might be the snitch is Pierson Prioleau. Former Saints ST captain that was released last season who was apparently Gregg Williams' favorite but was cut.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Saints' team meeting.


If I weren't laughing so hard, I'd be angry with you.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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I bet it was Steve Gleason.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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I bet it was Steve Gleason.
Hardly. Gleason is still very tied to the organization and was released because of his medical condition.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Hardly. Gleason is still very tied to the organization and was released because of his medical condition.
ATL isn't very fond of Gleason.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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A player who might be the snitch is Pierson Prioleau. Former Saints ST captain that was released last season who was apparently Gregg Williams' favorite but was cut.
I'm hearing Bobby McCray

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Old 03-05-2012, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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The way I see it, the involvement of money here, although it may technically be the true violation at hand, isn't what the uproar is about at all. I have serious doubts the money really provided more incentive to defenders, and I suspect it was basically a glorified points system. Obviously noone but the most picky of media and fans really cares about a team breaking rules about a hidden payment system.

The real cause of the media and fan outrage is the notion a coach is communicating to his guys that he and their bosses would like to see them target offensive players in a way that might cause injury. There is some confusion here whether said coach is outright encouraging inducing injuries, or encouraging "making plays" which are very likely to do so. In any case, at best it is distasteful. The way the coach is communicating all this is via either running a payment "bounty" system, or just allowing one to occur amongst his players.

My concern is the NFL is more concerned with the media reaction and will look to punish those involved to the degree people expect for a 'injury creating bounty system', which it may very well be, even though the actual violation may be that of simply running a hidden payment-for-performance scheme outside the official performance bonus channels. It's not so much I think this is unfair for those caught, but rather, it seems to me there could be many more ways coaches around the league are communicating the same thing to their players, it's just they don't use a easily exposed money scheme to communicate it - after all, I think it can be said the money is hardly much motivation at all compared to motivation mechanisms already in the NFL.

This isn't about trying to prove every one else does it so who cares, it's about questioning the NFL's motivations here and whether there is a serious problem league wide that won't be so easily to detect and punish as this.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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The Redskins are now being investigated by the NFL as well.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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Fwiw I don't think anyone tried to hurt another player. With the exception of Favre but let be honest his ass kept coming back we did everyone a favor.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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I'm hearing Bobby McCray

That is hilarious.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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A player who might be the snitch is Pierson Prioleau. Former Saints ST captain that was released last season who was apparently Gregg Williams' favorite but was cut.
Why would a Gregg Williams favorite rat out Gregg Williams? It was probably someone who felt screwed by Williams and/or the Saints.
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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i still have no idea why anyone watches ESPN, it's not like this is new or remotely surprising. espn is to sports what an mtv jersey shore marathon is to music.
Wow what high standards.
They have NCAA hoops, NBA, All 4 Slams in tennis, almost all the slams in golf, and they have NFL games, yet you have no idea why anyone watched ESPN ever huh?

Even my wife HAS AN IDEA... why WE watch it.


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Can Peyton Manning's neck injury be traced to Gregg Williams? Williams was the Redskins' defensive coordinator on Oct. 22, 2006, for the Washington-Indianapolis game. Last fall, during an NBC telecast, Tony Dungy said Manning's current neck injury stems from that game. Manning's neck got wrenched and his helmet ripped off on a hit by two Washington defenders. We showed the highlight on our show. Manning, after being hit and crumbling to the ground awkwardly, lay there for a second, and when he rose, he stretched his neck and shook his right arm for a second, as if trying to get the feeling back in it.

Afterward, as I wrote last fall in this column, Dungy told me: "Earlier in the game, I'm outraged that there was a flag for roughing-the-passer on Dwight Freeney for just grazing the quarterback's helmet. So I'm yelling at the ref [Scott Green], 'Where's the flag! Where's the flag!' And I don't yell much, but I did then. So I didn't notice Peyton calling timeout and being shaken up. Peyton came to the sideline and said to [backup] Jim Sorgi, 'Jim, start warming up.' As the timeout went on, he said to us, 'I can stay in, but we need to run the ball here.' '' Which the Colts did, settling for a field goal deep in Washington territory.

"Then we sort of forgot about it at halftime, and Peyton seemed fine," said Dungy. "He lit it up in the second half. He was on fire [throwing for 244 yards and three touchdowns]. But that's the year we started cutting back on his throws at practice. I'm not putting two plus two together. I just figure he's getting older and he needs some time off, he's made enough throws. But now, as I look back on it, there's no doubt in my mind that this was the start of his neck problems.'' There's no evidence that Washington's defenders had a bounty out on Manning that night. But it's a question, surely, that begs to be asked. And if I were one of the league investigators interviewing Williams today, it's certainly something I'd explore.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1oIKIWVEu
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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Wow what high standards.
They have NCAA hoops, NBA, All 4 Slams in tennis, almost all the slams in golf, and they have NFL games, yet you have no idea why anyone watched ESPN ever huh?
I don't think he's talking about the channels; I think he's talking about the content between sporting events.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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**** is just getting worse all the time. Depending on just how true and how serious some of this is, could the NFL hand out a "death penalty" to the Saints? Obviously they wouldn't kill the organization, but heavy fines, banning the GM and head coach, and taking away a year or twos worth of draft picks would probably cripple them badly.

All around a bad situation. And the "everyone does it" argument works about as well here as it would in a real court of law. Which is "not at all."
If it becomes widely publicized that "outsiders" were involved in bounties, then I wouldn't be incredibly shocked if they're stripped of their SB title, in addition to everything that you mentioned. Like I said before, once it became known that outsiders were likely to be involved, this started looking like it could be the most blatant case of corruption since Hornung and Karras were caught betting on NFL games. A lot of information still has to come out, and like the Saints and their fans, so I hope this all blows over. It could get really bad, though.

Not only does the "everyone does it" argument not work, but I can just about promise you that not every NFL team has a career white-collar scam artist contributing money to their bounty pool.

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Old 03-06-2012, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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This is being so overblown honestly. This happens on every team on every level: nfl, college, and high school. I mean as I said before just a few years ago when i was in High School we were rewarded Crunch bars for decleaters. What do people think players get the stickers on there helmets for in college. What is the pancake stat. I dont see this as a big deal. I mean no player really is going to purposely go out and end a guys career with an illegal hit, because not only will fans critizize them, other teams will put an x on there back, and i gaurantee even there own teammates would lose respect for the guy. Guys play the game for glory and prestige and that only comes with clean hits not dirty ones. Guys can get hurt with clean hits its part of the game.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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Guys play the game for glory and prestige and that only comes with clean hits not dirty ones. Guys can get hurt with clean hits its part of the game.
It's the part of the game that makes you cringe, though. There's no worse feeling in sports than watching a person get carted off. To take such a situation and consider it a positive play is morally dubious at best and certainly is the last thing in the world that the league needs right now. Any outright reward system based on the injury of another human being is absolutely unacceptable. I don't see how it can be justified. Injuries are a terrible consequence of a violent game, not a cause for celebration. As a competitor, you want to knock the other guy in the dirt, not injure him.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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This is being so overblown honestly. This happens on every team on every level: nfl, college, and high school. I mean as I said before just a few years ago when i was in High School we were rewarded Crunch bars for decleaters. What do people think players get the stickers on there helmets for in college. What is the pancake stat. I dont see this as a big deal. I mean no player really is going to purposely go out and end a guys career with an illegal hit, because not only will fans critizize them, other teams will put an x on there back, and i gaurantee even there own teammates would lose respect for the guy. Guys play the game for glory and prestige and that only comes with clean hits not dirty ones. Guys can get hurt with clean hits its part of the game.
It's irrelevant. The Saints were stupid enough to get caught breaking a rule and deserve their punishment.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Look you have to play the game to light a guy up and hopefully put him on the sideline for that game legally. I mean i was taught to play like as if you were dealing with a bully. You dont start a fight with a bully hoping to land a good punch,no you better make sure that while your in the area he isnt getting up, cause if you make that mistake and dont finish him, its a gaurantee he isnt going to make the same mistake.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:23 AM    (permalink
mqtirishfan
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For the record, I think a "death penalty" for an NFL team is horrendously stupid. The league isn't going to contract, so all it would do is make the Saints weaker for a few years and make them hire new people and sign free agents instead of draft top talent. You can't force them to use fewer players or not sign free agents, so either the Saints would become a middle of the pack team or they'd bottom out in time for getting their draft picks back.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hoekd0250 View Post
Look you have to play the game to light a guy up and hopefully put him on the sideline for that game legally. I mean i was taught to play like as if you were dealing with a bully. You dont start a fight with a bully hoping to land a good punch,no you better make sure that while your in the area he isnt getting up, cause if you make that mistake and dont finish him, its a gaurantee he isnt going to make the same mistake.
Allow me to clarify. You go out there with the intention of hitting another guy as hard as you possibly can. I'm not disputing that in any way. However, if that guy ends up with a neck injury and has to leave on a cart, you don't consider it a positive. That's the worst possible outcome of a play, and it shouldn't be rewarded with a bonus.

For example, let's say two players make identical, legal hits on their opponents. In the first play, the opponent lands safely on his side and gets up right away. In the second hit, the opponent lands awkwardly because his leg was in the wrong spot. This system actually rewards the second player simply because the guy landed funny and tore his knee up. It's not wrong that a player injured another player on a legal hit, because that is an unfortunate part of the game. It is definitely wrong for a guy to then be given extra cash because of this, though.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:06 AM    (permalink
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It seems then that most of the players are all for getting money for tds, int, fumbles etc. and for things like decleaters, but just dont like the extra cash given for if the play is injured for it. I guess this is were i tend to agree too. Is this how everyone else feels as well. Its ok to get money for decleating a guy and it doesnt matter if he was injured or not. Does it matter if you target a specific player or just decleaters in general? I dont think it really has to be named legal hit or not because most likely goodell would give them a larger fine then the bounty would be anyway. If say its like $500 per decleater.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:09 AM    (permalink
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Also i think its very likely that it was a group or a specific agent that reported and narked out the saints due to them being left out of a large sum of money and not actually a player. Just my thought for now what you guys think?
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hoekd0250 View Post
It seems then that most of the players are all for getting money for tds, int, fumbles etc. and for things like decleaters, but just dont like the extra cash given for if the play is injured for it. I guess this is were i tend to agree too. Is this how everyone else feels as well. Its ok to get money for decleating a guy and it doesnt matter if he was injured or not. Does it matter if you target a specific player or just decleaters in general? I dont think it really has to be named legal hit or not because most likely goodell would give them a larger fine then the bounty would be anyway. If say its like $500 per decleater.
Except it isn't, it's against the rules.
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