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Old 03-03-2012, 08:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by falloutboy14 View Post
They were given bonuses if players were carted off the field or knocked out of the game.
So then why the **** are people defending what the did? That is defintely a morality problem and should be punished properly.

Having said that i dont think the punishment should be too hard, people are saying a first round draft pick or three year bans. Thats just ridiculous.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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Silly arguments guys. We all want to see hard hitting but clean play on defense. Two completely sensible ways of coming at this.

1st: It is against NFL policy no matter what they characterized it so they are in the wrong regardless.

2nd: Point 1 can't be argued this is the more sensible premise. There would be ZERO outrage if players were given a bonus for "big hits". It was stated as "forcing a player to leave the game or carted off". They were NOT REWARDED FOR BIG HITS. They were rewarded for intentionally injuring an opponent.

The difference? You get paid on the result of the injury not by the result of the play. If you poke your opponent in the eye you get $1,500. If you lay the lumber of a crossing route and stop them on 3rd and short and he gets up and runs off the field... you get $0. Play 1 you probably get ejected and cost your team 15 yards. Play 2 you made an effective defensive play. See the problem?

The policy will get them punished harshly and rightly so considering it wasn't even advocating smart defense just dirty play.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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Saints v Warner in the 2009 playoffs.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-Warner-injury

.. and Favre a week later
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...INT-and-injury
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Leo View Post
That's classic.
Epic stuff.

njx9, the people who constantly ***** about things like fines for illegal hits, or head-hunting hits that they say are "just football", pretending that the game has gone soft, those are the people who should be ashamed of themselves. The game is not soft whatsoever. It's as brutal as ever out there. Stand on the sideline of an NFL game next year.

Just because the bloody Ryan Clarks and James Harrisons ***** about it on twitter doesn't mean the game is soft and it's easy to be a WR, RB, TE, QB today.... that's a crock.

There are bloody defenders going after knees, and heads out there. It ain't soft. You, and anyone else here who is playing that card, go out there once and we'll hand you the ball. You'd last one play.

Defensive players are bigger, faster, stronger than ever before, and they are trying to KO players, cleanly or not.

Louis Delmas is the dirtiest mofo out there today!

Anyway, Gregg Williams is the one who deserves the biggest penalty here, moreso than the Saints, or Redskins.
He was the common denominator here.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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Here's my two cents whole issue

The NFL are going to crack down extremely hard on the Saints. They broke the rules and they got caught. They deserve to be punished.

The whole grey area thing about injuring players and "bountygate" is simply a sideline issue for me.

They broke the rules of the salary cap by offering bonuses off the books. This in itself probably deserves financial penalties against the Saints and fines against leading participants and decision makers, ie Gregg Williams, Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis. All 3 had at least some knowledge of this violation and not enough was done to stop it.

The media are running with the whole injurying players part of it though. Due to the NFL's push for player safety this is the reason why harsh penalties will be levied. Roger Goodell is going to make an example out of the Saints for this.

The fact that offering the bonuses directly violates league rules means they deserve to be punished. Obviously the debate then starts as to what would be a fair punishment and really none of us are qualified to say.

The main debate in this thread seems to be around the integrity of the issue. The seems to be pretty much two sides.

1. The Saints went out to injure players. They're scum and should be banned from playing ever again.

2. Eh, that's how football should be played.

This scenario, as with pretty much everything in life though falls somewhere in the middle.

If you forget about the actual violation of league rules in regards to payments;

The Saints basically were rewarding players who made significant plays which enhanced their chances of winning the game. Forcing fumbles, getting INTs and knocking a star player out of the game are all ways to increase your chances against any particular opponent.

A blind side sack when the QB is readying himself to throw the ball may lead to him being driven to the turf with his shoulder extended and the force could cause a separated shoulder, or maybe even something as little as pain and discomfort. This is a very good play by the defender as he not only sacked the QB but he fairly knocked the QB out for at least a few plays.

Likewise if a shifty slot WR catches a slant across the middle and an ILB lowers the boom on his rib cage and cracks a rib it is described as a big hit which helps his team.

These are the types of positive plays that people will say the Saints were trying to reward.

However it simply isn't as cut and dry as that. Players can, and will, take this to the extreme. Where in the pay for performance plan does it state if you injure a player with a fair hit then you get paid, however if you injure a player with a cheap shot then you don't because it's against the rules??? It doesn't and therefore any player can make his own interpretation of this.

I think we can all agree that injuries happen in football because it is a violent sport played by some of the biggest, fastest and strongest men in the world. When full force collision happen between two big men something has to give. However when injuries happen due to other things, such as twisting a guys ankle after the play (Jabari Greer on Adrian Peterson for example) or aiming low at a guy's knees, or arm barring someone in a pile then it's a different story. Clearly the implied opinion of most people is that the Saints were actively encouraging this type of behaviour. Whether or not that is true we can't definitively say at this point. However due to the crack down on illegal hits/big hits to improve player safety you can bet your bottom dollar that Roger Goodell is going to punish the Saints as though they were actively encouraging directly breaking rules.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Here's my two cents whole issue....

However when injuries happen due to other things, such as twisting a guys ankle after the play (Jabari Greer on Adrian Peterson for example) or aiming low at a guy's knee (like Louis Delmas)

.....Roger Goodell is going to punish the Saints as though they were actively encouraging directly breaking rules.
So more on your two cents:
That's all logical, but now go out on a limb and tell us what you think the penalties to each party WILL be, and what you think they SHOULD be.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
So more on your two cents:
That's all logical, but now go out on a limb and tell us what you think the penalties to each party WILL be, and what you think they SHOULD be.
My guess for what they will be

Gregg Williams gets fined $250,000 and suspended 8 games
New Orleans Saints get fined $500,000 and forfeit their second round pick this year and their first round pick next year

I don't think Williams should be made the scapegoat. He is the defensive coordinator and his head coach and GM knew what was going on. If they really wanted it stopped they would have stopped it. Williams should be fined maybe $50k and suspended two games.
The Sainst broke the salary cap rules and should be maybe fined $150k and forfeit their second round pick this year.

IMO the offense isn't that serious. But with player safety rules increasing Goodell will bring the hammer down. I have a feeling Goodell wants his legacy as NFL Commissioner to be that of the guy who made the game safer and protected players. This is his chance to really enforce that view.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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My stance on the issue hasn't changed, and it won't change. I think what annoys me about this thread is the amount of misinformation being thrown around. Let's get a couple of things straight:

1. There is NO evidence that the Saints rewarded their players for making illegal plays, nor is there any evidence that they advocated taking cheap shots on opponents.

2. This ridiculous assumption that Greg Williams was the only coach enforcing this rule. Plenty of ex players and coaches are coming out saying this has been around forever and in multiple locker rooms.

The 49ers DB coach has a point system that rewards players for knocking players out of the game according to Paul Batino. How is that any different from this?

Have we not heard the Ravens openly talking about putting bounties out on Hines Ward? Have we not heard about the bounties out on Shawne Merriman?

The 2 games everyone is using as an illustration of bounty gate were vs the Cards and Vikings. Both starting qbs have come out and said it doesn't bother them.

And I dare anyone to go back and watch those games again, and show me where the Saints were cheapshotting either qb. Those were all good hard, clean hits. They were making good aggressive physical football plays.

What really annoys me is this holier than thou ******** that my team would never do this. Newsflash: this is prevalent in every locker room in the league. The Saints just got caught.

Everyone is just assuming that they were getting paid to cheap shot, to poke eyes out, etc, and that is just so ridiculously untrue. That's what I find annoying about this whole topic.

The level of ignorance on the subject matter. If you don't like it, fine, you don't like it. But as Antonio Pierce stated yesterday, you don't want to know what goes on in NFL locker rooms. This is prevalent everywhere, and has been for decades.

If you think defensive players aren't coached to try to hurt players when they hit them, then you clearly haven't been around the sport.

It's a violent sport. These guys knew what they signed up for.


I dare anyone here to show me where any of the players or coaches said "I'll give you $$ to go after Player A's knees after the whistle" or anything of that nature.

That wasn't the case. This whole issue is being blown way out of proportion. If you don't want this to go on, then put flags on them.

Defense was meant to be physical, to intimidate. Dick Butkus is a HOFer bc he wanted to rip your head off on every play. You think he gave a **** if you got hurt or not? That was the whole point.

His name was Mean Joe Greene. Not Nice Joe Greene.

This whole outrage is ridiculous, and just an example of how little we know about the NFL's dirty little secrets. What makes this sport great is the physicality that is displayed on the field. If you want to eliminate that by putting restrictions on these guys, then don't complain when the sport turns into flag football.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Here's an article discussing the Ravens bounty for Hines Ward. It also hits on Bart Scott putting "a little hot sauce" on Reggie Bush's ankle which caused him to go leave the game from an injury.

http://www.aolnews.com/2008/10/22/ra...d-bounty-talk/
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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I do find it quite laughable some of the people who are up in arms that the mean, nasty Saints deliberately tried to injure people and even openly discussed it.

If any fan of any team somehow thinks that this kind of thing doesn't go on at even a small level on their team then they are kidding themselves.

It may be a case of guys in a positional group put in some of their own money or have an agreement with each other. Say the LB corps say to each other the Saturday before the game "okay, whoever gets Peterson out of the game gets the money" and say they each throw in $200.

Every team does this in some shape or form. It's not nice but it's reality.

The thing with the Saints is it was known from the top of the organisation down, organised by a coach, and since the team knew of the payments they broke the salary cap rules.

As long as guys play within the rules up until the whistle then I have no qualms with injuries occuring.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Here's an excellent article written by 7 year NFL veteran Matt Bowen on a bounty system (Rams, Packers, Redskins, Bills)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...4015992.column
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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They should've just consulted this guy.



He knows a thing or two about bounties.

If somebody already posted this, DAMN THEM!
This picture has potential to be epic, someone needs to think of a good caption for it.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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BBD I don't think most people are outraged or even a little bit surprised by this news, but despite the prevalence of it in the NFL or how ingrained it is in the culture of the NFL it doesn't make it in any way an ethical or legal behavior.

When Jonathan Vilma puts $10,000 on the table and says that he'll give it the guy who knocks Brett Farve out of the game, even though he didn't say explicitly to do anything outside of the context of the rules, he still implied that players should take certain liberties to do this. Whether it's somebody taking a shot that they didn't need to after an interception, or hitting him when they could have pulled up, they provided an incentive system which encouraged others to take actions in an attempt to physically harm another player.

There is a risk that every player takes when they walk onto a football field. However, the players should do everything that they can to preserve the health of their peers, as long as it doesn't effect the performance of their job. Everybody has seen the kind of damage that football causes to former players health long term, so why is it ok to take measures to exacerbate those problems when the players don't need to? I like good physical football as much as the next guy, but having "knockout" pools crosses the line.

The Saints certainly aren't the ones who do this, and it definitely sucks for them that they were the first ones to get caught. However, like when the Patriots got caught, there really is no good defense for what they were doing, regardless of how small of an impact it has in the large scheme of things. It violates league policy, and is simply unethical behavior to engage in.

Let the league penalize the Saints whatever they see fit, and hopefully pools like this stop being a part of the league.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Actually, since 2006, when Payton took over. Guess I was wrong pretty much.
I was making a joke. Since both the Buccaneers and Saints franchises were not the "respectable" franchises "through the years" that you were commenting on. I suppose my sarcasm was not picked up on through text.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Pshhh Kobra Kai wasn't bad, all the dojos do it.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
My stance on the issue hasn't changed, and it won't change. I think what annoys me about this thread is the amount of misinformation being thrown around. Let's get a couple of things straight:

1. There is NO evidence that the Saints rewarded their players for making illegal plays, nor is there any evidence that they advocated taking cheap shots on opponents.

2. This ridiculous assumption that Greg Williams was the only coach enforcing this rule. Plenty of ex players and coaches are coming out saying this has been around forever and in multiple locker rooms.

The 49ers DB coach has a point system that rewards players for knocking players out of the game according to Paul Batino. How is that any different from this?

Have we not heard the Ravens openly talking about putting bounties out on Hines Ward? Have we not heard about the bounties out on Shawne Merriman?

The 2 games everyone is using as an illustration of bounty gate were vs the Cards and Vikings. Both starting qbs have come out and said it doesn't bother them.

And I dare anyone to go back and watch those games again, and show me where the Saints were cheapshotting either qb. Those were all good hard, clean hits. They were making good aggressive physical football plays.

What really annoys me is this holier than thou ******** that my team would never do this. Newsflash: this is prevalent in every locker room in the league. The Saints just got caught.

Everyone is just assuming that they were getting paid to cheap shot, to poke eyes out, etc, and that is just so ridiculously untrue. That's what I find annoying about this whole topic.

The level of ignorance on the subject matter. If you don't like it, fine, you don't like it. But as Antonio Pierce stated yesterday, you don't want to know what goes on in NFL locker rooms. This is prevalent everywhere, and has been for decades.

If you think defensive players aren't coached to try to hurt players when they hit them, then you clearly haven't been around the sport.

It's a violent sport. These guys knew what they signed up for.


I dare anyone here to show me where any of the players or coaches said "I'll give you $$ to go after Player A's knees after the whistle" or anything of that nature.

That wasn't the case. This whole issue is being blown way out of proportion. If you don't want this to go on, then put flags on them.

Defense was meant to be physical, to intimidate. Dick Butkus is a HOFer bc he wanted to rip your head off on every play. You think he gave a **** if you got hurt or not? That was the whole point.

His name was Mean Joe Greene. Not Nice Joe Greene.

This whole outrage is ridiculous, and just an example of how little we know about the NFL's dirty little secrets. What makes this sport great is the physicality that is displayed on the field. If you want to eliminate that by putting restrictions on these guys, then don't complain when the sport turns into flag football.
Sadly, the NFL is sliding down the slippery side of the mountain and soon enough it will be the NFFL - the National Flag Football League. As you, and several other forum members, have put it, this sort of behavior happens in every locker room in every NFL team stadiums across the country.

Read my latest blog entry if you want to hear what Kurt Warner and Damien Woody said about the Saints "Bountygate".

The worse of it all, because the Saints are the Saints and not one of the league's beloved franchises, expect Commissioner Goodell to try to make an example of the Saints - especially since allegedly the coach and front office knew about it and failed to take any action.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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I'm expecting fines, 2nd round draft pick forfeited, and some kind of suspensions of players. Probably 2-3 players for a game. Just personal speculation.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by diabsoule View Post
Here's an excellent article written by 7 year NFL veteran Matt Bowen on a bounty system (Rams, Packers, Redskins, Bills)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...4015992.column
Yeah very good piece.
Quote:
I'm not saying it's right. Or ethical. But the NFL isn't little league football with neighborhood dads playing head coach. This is the business of winning. If that means stepping over some line, you do it.

Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are a part of this game. It is an ugly tradition that was exposed Friday with Williams front and center from his time coaching the defense in New Orleans. But don't peg this on him alone. You will find it in plenty of NFL cities.
Again, just because something's going on, doesn't mean it's right.
There's plenty of muggings, rapes, assaults, crack-dealing going on today on street corners all over America. Doesn't mean it's right or shouldn't be cracked down on.

This great game of football will still be very violent even without bounties for injuring players. Hard hits are great, above the knees and below the heads.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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I hope they kick Williams out of the league. This ******** is the reason Peyton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries. What a scumbag.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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The main way you know this happens elsewhere is the reaction of guys like Favre and Warner, who both had bounties put on them.

Brett Favre

ďI'm not pissed. It's football, I don't think anything less of those guys. Said or unsaid, guys do it anyway. If they can drill you and get you out, they will.''

Kurt Warner

ďAnd Iím not going to tell you that I havenít believed that there was probably defensive players that got together and said, ĎHey, you know, a thousand bucks for the first guy to knock Kurt out of a football game.í Iím sure thatís been a part of our league for a long time.Ē
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
I hope they kick Williams out of the league. This ******** is the reason Peyton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries. What a scumbag.
To be fair Mario Williams didn't help.

Or Charlie Johnson, Ryan Diem or Jeff Linkenbach.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Intimidation is a big part of defense. You want your defense to be feared. You get into the offense's head. You don't want them going over the middle with no fear of getting lit up, you don't want the qb to throw the ball without any fear of getting hit.

Intimidation is a big part of defense. I don't think the Saints were telling their guys "go after knees, stomp this guy after the whistle, twist this guy's ankle"

I think they were just emphasizing physical play. Don't be afraid to light someone up. You get fined for sneezing on offenses now. So they basically said ok, we'll put away money as a defense for fines, and accept them and sacrifice some money for physical play.

I don't have a problem with that.
You've got to be ******* kidding me. No, they aren't making "illegal" hits, but to pay someone because they seriously injured a player?

Defense shouldn't lose aggression. But offensive players are people too. Like defensive players, these players live their whole lives devoted to playing in the NFL. From Pop Warner, to High School, to College, and then the day they are drafted when all of their dreams are finally realized.

And you want to reward players for ending another person's lifelong dream? It's quite sickening actually.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints Dome Patrol View Post
I was making a joke. Since both the Buccaneers and Saints franchises were not the "respectable" franchises "through the years" that you were commenting on. I suppose my sarcasm was not picked up on through text.
Yeah, kinda difficult to pick up sarcasm through text. Now, I'm hearing things could get as bad as Payton losing his job? Haha. this is getting better every minute.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/michae...tem/index.html

SI: The Saints "pay for injury" model could lead to battery and conspiracy charges; players may face tax evasion charges if they didn't report their bounty payments.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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I'm honestly shocked that this is even a story. Every team does this.
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