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Old 03-28-2012, 12:14 AM    (permalink
jsagan77
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
what bias do YOU think I have? this should be fun.
Some sort of wierd sociological bias where you think there is some moral issue with what these two teams did. It blocks people from looking at a situation objectively and instead uses their own standards for determining if something is wrong or right. That's not the point here. You can have your opinion about it but the facts remain, no rules were broken and thats the point. Morals are not relevant here, the rules were followed and thats the only obligation these teams were mandated to follow--bottom line.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:35 AM    (permalink
TonyGfortheTD
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Oh bull crap. What they did was totally within the rules, you're bias opinion or anyone elses means nothing. The objective facts are they did nothing wrong, end of story. And fwiw The skins are cap guru's. Their lack of winning has been due to a plethora of other things.
Well considering it was made clear, several times, not to do what they did, looks like they did in fact do something wrong.

The rule is stupid, but that doesn't mean breaking it is justified.

It's pretty much been a Cowboys/Redskins tear repository in here, when the fans that have the right to actually complain are the Raiders. I mean, come on...they also got slapped for releasing Jamarcus ******* Russel.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TonyGfortheTD View Post
Well considering it was made clear, several times, not to do what they did, looks like they did in fact do something wrong.

The rule is stupid, but that doesn't mean breaking it is justified.


It's pretty much been a Cowboys/Redskins tear repository in here, when the fans that have the right to actually complain are the Raiders. I mean, come on...they also got slapped for releasing Jamarcus ******* Russel.
There was no rule.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scotty D View Post
There was no rule.
It was an order from the leader they appointed to govern their league, so it really doesn't matter.

and I'm sure there's a rule somewhere that states all officials should preserve integrity of the league. It seems 29 owners thought there was an integrity issue with what they did.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:47 AM    (permalink
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There was no rule.
DING DING. This is collusion to the infinite degree against the two most profitable teams in the league. This was a rogue commish trying to punish without much legal backing. Its a joke he should be fired for.
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:52 AM    (permalink
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This is not a legal issue.
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:58 AM    (permalink
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Of course it's not a legal issue. It's an issue to be overseen by the arbitrator whose duty is to rule on these cases.

So what happens if the arbitrator decides to punish ALL clubs who made questionable moves (Packers, Bears, +10)? Will all the teams who did load up get saddled with penalties while the teams that don't spend money will get more cap room?

Has to just be a happy coincidence that Mara is using the "good ol boys" club for a competitive advantage right?


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Old 03-28-2012, 06:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
DING DING. This is collusion to the infinite degree against the two most profitable teams in the league. This was a rogue commish trying to punish without much legal backing. Its a joke he should be fired for.

Can't really say he was rouge when the vote was 29-0 to support him.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:03 AM    (permalink
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If you really think Mara is doing this out of spite because it's the Cowboys and Redskins then you need to beef up on your NFL history. The Mara's could have killed the NFL as we know it today if they had wanted to.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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Can't really say he was rouge when the vote was 29-0 to support him.
No owner was going to vote against it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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If you really think Mara is doing this out of spite because it's the Cowboys and Redskins then you need to beef up on your NFL history. The Mara's could have killed the NFL as we know it today if they had wanted to.
I simply asked a question. You felt the need to irreverently defend Mara. Your logic is a tad broken. So because Mara didn't kill off the league (his money making source) he wouldn't seek a competitive advantage? I love the logic.

It is just a funny thought that the man behind the curtain punishes his division rivals and not all questionable moves. Hell since Mara claims it was a competitive advantage and "against the spirit of the cap" how about the teams that massively UNDERSPEND because there was not a floor. I didn't see him pointing a figure at the majority of teams for massively front-loading contracts or spending well below the salary floor which is a competitive advantage.

I understand as a Giant's fan you have to hold Mara's name in the highest.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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I simply asked a question. You felt the need to irreverently defend Mara. Your logic is a tad broken. So because Mara didn't kill off the league (his money making source) he wouldn't seek a competitive advantage? I love the logic.

It is just a funny thought that the man behind the curtain punishes his division rivals and not all questionable moves. Hell since Mara claims it was a competitive advantage and "against the spirit of the cap" how about the teams that massively UNDERSPEND because there was not a floor. I didn't see him pointing a figure at the majority of teams for massively front-loading contracts or spending well below the salary floor which is a competitive advantage.

I understand as a Giant's fan you have to hold Mara's name in the highest.
The Mara family could be a lot richer if they didn't split the NY pie into 32 pieces. They had the foresight to see that the NFL would be a stronger league as a whole if everyone had equal footing rather than a group of top teams. That was my point. The history of the family shows what they do is always in the best interest of the NFL and not themselves so to use that as an excuse needs to be defended.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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this is great. what competitive advantage, on the field mind you, is there to paying below the salary floor in an uncapped year? specific examples now.
In theory, legitimately low-budget teams could "cheat the cap" during the uncapped year by spending maybe $20 Million less than they would normally be required to, and that would be $20 Million that they could spend in future years, as a sort of equalizer.

Of course, there may be a perceived "ethical" difference between poor teams acting poor during an uncapped year, and rich teams acting rich during an uncapped year.

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further, do you not have any vague understanding of the difference between front loading a contract in a year in which you still have to be under the cap, versus doing it in a year where there is no cap? this really isn't that bloody difficult.
I don't think that front-loading is even the issue, but the extent to which the Cowboys and Redskins did it. The Packers front-load contracts on nearly every deal they negotiate, and they did it with the Tramon Williams deal during the uncapped year. They only spent $135 Million in 2010, though. The Cowboys spent $166 Million, which was $20 Million more than the next highest spender. The Redskins spent $178 Million.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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The issue with what you think is right Vs what i think is right is very culturally specific so yes, it doesnt matter what was said, only what was written. You're acting like what you think is right is the 100% only way someone can do something right. The skins and boys and everyone else did THE RIGHT THING based off the guidance they were given. This isnt make up the rules as we go club. This is a muli billiondollar business and what these guys are doing is down right vindictive.

So answer me this. Teams under spent, should they be punished? They hurt competative balance. The Bears frontloaded peppers contract. Isnt that essentially wat the skins are being punished for? Why werent they strung up?


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you do realize, of course, that the entire bloody league is guilty of collusion, thus the anti-trust exemption? i'm unsure why so many people are bound and determined to make this a legal issue, when the entire league is basically outside of the legal system as it is. it's like a bunch of 4 year olds crying because they don't understand why someone won't give them a cookie.



and that has what, specifically, to do with damix's post? nothing? cool.



sociological bias? that's hilarious/nonsense. so i have a bias for... doing the right thing? how inconvenient... yes, totally blocked from looking at it objectively, presuming that objectively is solely defined as 'from jsagan's point of view'. clearly the written rules WEREN'T the only obligation teams were supposed to be following, thus the penalties. i have no idea why that's such a difficult concept for you to understand.

but then, it's not possibly because you, as a redskins fan, have any bias towards the skins not being penalized (this is sort of a better definition of bias, since your initial suggestion of a sociological bias is so mind-numbingly idiotic that it's difficult to take seriously).



decides that all of the clubs who made questionable moves....

it's difficult to answer a question you didn't bother asking.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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What rules did these teams break by front loading contracts?


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so by spending less they got a $20 million credit for the future on the cap? again, no on field competitive advantage was gained. all the team were still bound by the cap coming out. you didn't get a better cap.



i don't think that's terribly relevant. as long as they're all playing by the same rules.



exactly this. front-loading in a capped year is entirely different. massively front-loading in an uncapped year places your team on an uneven playing field coming back into the cap. again, it's a massive (or could be, with a competent front office) competitive advantage.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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this is great. what competitive advantage, on the field mind you, is there to paying below the salary floor in an uncapped year? specific examples now.

can't think of any? i'm *shocked*.

further, do you not have any vague understanding of the difference between front loading a contract in a year in which you still have to be under the cap, versus doing it in a year where there is no cap? this really isn't that bloody difficult.
... Sorry you are this dense. I'll spoon feed you now :)

Competitive advantage at being WELL BELOW the salary cap in a given year is that you will have a SIGNIFICANT advantage (in terms of cap space) when the cap is brought back into play. You could also argue that yes by fielding a weaker team by spending less money would create an imbalance in the scheduling of teams. For example playing the Pirates rather than playing the Red Sox.

Simple enough or should I not be *shocked* that you couldn't reason that one out? See I can do it too. :)

I don't think my ability to understand front loading in a capped year vs uncapped year is the problem. I was making the point that at least 10 NFL teams mega-front loaded contracts in an uncapped year. How can I word this any other way to make this any more clear? ... Here's a picture.

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Old 03-28-2012, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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That's a picture worth a thousand words.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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But how do you go 50 million over?
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Jackson and Crabtree's contracts should not be part of this. Those were rookie contracts that were signed a full year or two before the uncapped year. Schuab as well, unless there was a restructure there. I'm not sure teams were warned at that point. But the Peppers contract should be looked at. At the very least the Bears should have been lumped in with the Raiders and Saints.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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and that has what, specifically, to do with damix's post? nothing? cool.
????? It showed that his post that the vote of 29-0 meant nothing.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Thats why the Steelers have no room to make moves, because they followed the warnings. Suck it BeerBaron.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Jackson and Crabtree's contracts should not be part of this. Those were rookie contracts that were signed a full year or two before the uncapped year. Schuab as well, unless there was a restructure there. I'm not sure teams were warned at that point. But the Peppers contract should be looked at. At the very least the Bears should have been lumped in with the Raiders and Saints.
There's a few contracts in that pic that were signed before that off-season that are irrelevant.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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There's a few contracts in that pic that were signed before that off-season that are irrelevant.
It doesn't matter when they were signed. It matters when the restructuring happened.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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It doesn't matter when they were signed. It matters when the restructuring happened.
True. I can't speak for the other teams, but I don't remember the Eagles restructuring Peters' contract in '10. (may just not be remembering it though) But even if they did, there is certainly basis behind his restructure (and some of the others). Most of those players are making roughly the same from '09-'10 (Julius Peppers' contract sticks out a little bit though... lol) and the years after. In those cases, there really isn't anything too outlandish or unjustifiable, like what happened with the 'skins and 'boys.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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It doesn't matter when they were signed. It matters when the restructuring happened.
Agreed. But Schaub for instance. His salary was so high because of what looks like a 10 million dollar roster bonus. However if that bonus was put in his contract in 2007, then it is completely irrelevant.
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