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Old 03-22-2012, 06:54 PM    (permalink
wicket
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teams have just become so much more proficient in scheming around the need of a great LT. The saints have become one of the best offensive teams in history by using dominant guards and clipping with the TEs. This doesnt really mean great LTs arent important, teams have just figured out ways to deal with it as long as there is a big positive somewhere on the OLine.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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teams have just become so much more proficient in scheming around the need of a great LT. The saints have become one of the best offensive teams in history by using dominant guards and clipping with the TEs. This doesnt really mean great LTs arent important, teams have just figured out ways to deal with it as long as there is a big positive somewhere on the OLine.
But we don't have a dominant guard either. Taking Kalil solidifies the entire left side.
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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The only thing I know for sure is that the Vikings will TRY to trade down. If they aren't able to they will have internal debates between Claiborne, Blackmon and Kalil and be happy with either.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I think there is no doubt the Vikings are going to take Khalil. The only reason they're saying this is, they know the Browns and Bucs have NO NEED for a LT and are both interested in Richardson or Claiborne. They're using the fact that Claiborne is probably high on Tampa's radar to generate a desperate move by Dominik. It happens every year. The Vikings went the wrong way of using this smoke screen by 1st saying: They want to trade down. Then, when that failed with the STL/WAS trade, they're trying to make it known they want Claiborne over Khlalil.

No team is really buying it. The Vikings will still take Khalil either way, just trying to get more picks because they have TOO many holes.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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I think there is no doubt the Vikings are going to take Khalil. The only reason they're saying this is, they know the Browns and Bucs have NO NEED for a LT and are both interested in Richardson or Claiborne. They're using the fact that Claiborne is probably high on Tampa's radar to generate a desperate move by Dominik. It happens every year. The Vikings went the wrong way of using this smoke screen by 1st saying: They want to trade down. Then, when that failed with the STL/WAS trade, they're trying to make it known they want Claiborne over Khlalil.

No team is really buying it. The Vikings will still take Khalil either way, just trying to get more picks because they have TOO many holes.
I completly agree, the Vikings are sending up smoke screens to see if someone will pay the King's Ransom to get to #3. I'm not even sure the team wants to move the pick, but it is in their best interest to explore their options. If they don't field calls, they can't find out what teams are willing to offer, if they don't find a deal overally enticing Khalil is a slam dunk.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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THey way they went about this smoke screen was all wrong. They announced it before the Rams/Skins deal they wanted to move down and get that ransom for the opportunity to draft RG III. The Rams got that package.

Now, the Vikings are probably taking the next best prospect, Claiborne, because every one knows they won't take Richardson, and entice Tampa to move up. I know Dominik values draft picks too highly to move up when he certainly knows theres no way, after a team drafts a QB the year before in round 1, and has NO OLINE, with an elite LT prospect on the board, they will pass on Khalil.

I just wish the Vikings were smarter. To me, it's a joke.
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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All of those teams LT's were playing better than Charlie Johnson did last year. It's not going to cost them $40m guaranteed for Kalil either. I accept that CB is a huge need, and that all those teams won the SB w/o a top 5 LT... but Claiborne does not appear to be Deion Sanders or Darrelle Revis. I think Kalil is BPA at a position of value and equal need.
Nobody has been Deion Sanders at CB since Deion, so that point is irrelevant. It's fun to try and peg a CB like Revis now but if anyone that year felt he would be this good he wouldn't have been there at pick 14 to begin with. People felt he would be a really good CB, same as Claiborne. He wasn't a slam dunk, can't miss revolutionary prospect who people felt would be a lock down CB but you don't have to be to end up elite.
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Old 03-25-2012, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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I agree that LT is an overrated position. That being said, you should stick to your draft board. If a team doesn't value LT very highly, then Kalil's rating should reflect that. Numerous retired GMs have said that they always screwed up when they decided to jump their draft board.

Also, the Packers and Giants started Chad Clifton and David Diehl at LT, respectively. Both have been Pro Bowl players. Spielman was obviously gambling that the beat writer wouldn't know that, or else the beat writer completely misunderstood the point that Spielman was trying to make.

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Old 03-25-2012, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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All I know is that Spielman's argument is IMO, totally correct. You have a chance to use the #3 pick on an elite player, hopefully their only chance for a very long time, why take Kalil just because conventional wisdom says they should? Pick the guy that will make the biggest impact. If Spielman thinks Claiborne is a true shutdown corner, there's no debate who the pick should be.

That's what leans me towards Claiborne or even Blackmon. The fact that Spielman is even aware of the anti-Kalil argument tells where his thought process is.
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Old 03-25-2012, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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I think there is no doubt the Vikings are going to take Khalil. The only reason they're saying this is, they know the Browns and Bucs have NO NEED for a LT and are both interested in Richardson or Claiborne. They're using the fact that Claiborne is probably high on Tampa's radar to generate a desperate move by Dominik. It happens every year. The Vikings went the wrong way of using this smoke screen by 1st saying: They want to trade down. Then, when that failed with the STL/WAS trade, they're trying to make it known they want Claiborne over Khlalil.

No team is really buying it. The Vikings will still take Khalil either way, just trying to get more picks because they have TOO many holes.
Agree and disagree. Yes, I think the Vikings are telliing everyone who will listen that they aren't sure who they want. And I agree that's intended to draw a trade, but I also think they REALLY DON'T know who they would take if they stayed. The way Spielman went through all the recent Super Bowls and who the left tackles were seems to indicate that they've really spent some time thinking about this. And when you give it some thought, he may have a point. David Diehl was a 5th rounder, Matt Light was a 2nd rounder, Chad Clifton was a 2nd rounder, Jonathan Scott was a 5th rounder who started at left tackle for the Steelers due to an injury to Max Starks, who was a 3rd rounder. Jermon Bushrod was a 4th rounder and Charlie Johnson (now the Vikings' starting left guard) was a 6th rounder.

All this begs the question: Do you really need a top 10 LT to win a Super Bowl? Maybe not.

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Old 03-25-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Let's put it this way: After Marques Colston was found in the 7th round, many thought they could find WRs anywhere.

You can't always go into that mind set. Sometimes you get an ABSOLUTE steal, but if you play that "Oh this guy was a 6th round pick, and look how good he is compared to so and so". That doesn't always happen.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Let's put it this way: After Marques Colston was found in the 7th round, many thought they could find WRs anywhere.

You can't always go into that mind set. Sometimes you get an ABSOLUTE steal, but if you play that "Oh this guy was a 6th round pick, and look how good he is compared to so and so". That doesn't always happen.
The point is that none of those later round guys are that good, just adequate. The teams were better off using their early picks on playmakers.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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The point is that none of those later round guys are that good, just adequate. The teams were better off using their early picks on playmakers.
Can you elaborate on that? I feel like I may not understand your suggestion that "none of those later round guys are good, just adequate."

That's a pretty absolute statement, and...


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Old 03-25-2012, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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When you get to the later rounds, usually it's just BPA. Some guys, out of what, 200 that are drafted on day 3, hit as sleepers and great players in the NFL.

You go into the draft and say" We can get our future LT in round 6 because the Saints did" is down right pathetic.

Tha'ts like saying you can get a Tom Brady in round 6 just because he went in the 6th.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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When you get to the later rounds, usually it's just BPA. Some guys, out of what, 200 that are drafted on day 3, hit as sleepers and great players in the NFL.

You go into the draft and say" We can get our future LT in round 6 because the Saints did" is down right pathetic.

Tha'ts like saying you can get a Tom Brady in round 6 just because he went in the 6th.
That's right. Tom Brady went in round 6 in 2000, and I think that the lowest drafted franchise QB since then was taken in the 3rd round. Even that might stretch the definition of "franchise QB."

You still go BPA in those later rounds, just like you should do in every round, and quality scouting departments can find good value in the later rounds -- especially at positions that are less valued than other positions.

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Old 03-25-2012, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Let's put it this way: After Marques Colston was found in the 7th round, many thought they could find WRs anywhere.

You can't always go into that mind set. Sometimes you get an ABSOLUTE steal, but if you play that "Oh this guy was a 6th round pick, and look how good he is compared to so and so". That doesn't always happen.
I don't think any team is that stupid. Marques Colstons are everywhere. Terrel Davis was a 6th rounder. Matt Birk was a 6th rounder. Shannon Sharpe was undrafted. John Randle as undrafted. Jahri Evans, Arian Foster, etc., etc. But when you look at the starting left tackles for the 6 teams in the last 3 Super Bowls, there might be a point to be made there. Let's go back further to the last 10 teams in the last 5 Super Bowls: Max Starks, 3rd round, Mike Gandy, 3rd round. David Diehl and Matt Light again.

Look, I'm not making the point that you don't need a highly drafted left tackle. I'm only suggesting that this is the point that Spielman was making, and since there is at least some degree of logic and corroboration behind it, maybe this is what he's really thinking.

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Old 03-25-2012, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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Nobody has been Deion Sanders at CB since Deion, so that point is irrelevant. It's fun to try and peg a CB like Revis now but if anyone that year felt he would be this good he wouldn't have been there at pick 14 to begin with. People felt he would be a really good CB, same as Claiborne. He wasn't a slam dunk, can't miss revolutionary prospect who people felt would be a lock down CB but you don't have to be to end up elite.
I was only commenting on how Claiborne does not appear to be a slam dunk shut down corner, then gave two examples of guys who were/are shut down corners. If Claiborne appeared to be on the level of those 2, he would be BPA, but he's not. I was saying Kalil is the BPA at 3 for the Vikings. I don't see how anything was irrelevant.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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Can you elaborate on that? I feel like I may not understand your suggestion that "none of those later round guys are good, just adequate."

That's a pretty absolute statement, and...

I was referring to bucfan's post and the post before that listed a bunch of late round left tackles. It seems that bucfan thought that the guy's point was that great players can be found in later rounds, when the actual point was that adequate left tackles can be found in later rounds. Nobody thinks you can consistently find Marquis Coltsons in the seventh or Tom Bradys in the sixth, but I think it's easy to find a guy to stick at left tackle if you don't think your left tackle needs to be that good to begin with.

That's what this discussion is. Sure, the Vikings can take Kalil and LT would be set for 10 years, theoretically. But what is the importance of that? Is it worth passing on a guy that can make a bigger impact?
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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I don't think there's anything underrated about shutting down a team's best pass rusher. That's why teams draft left tackles with top 5 picks. In today's NFL you can still do that moreso than you can shut down an elite WR with a shutdown corner thanks to the rule changes and more spread out, wide open passing games.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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I don't think there's anything underrated about shutting down a team's best pass rusher. That's why teams draft left tackles with top 5 picks. In today's NFL you can still do that moreso than you can shut down an elite WR with a shutdown corner thanks to the rule changes and more spread out, wide open passing games.
Teams are increasingly moving their best rushers around, though. Clay Matthews usually lines up on the offenses right side. I think that this trend is gradually limiting the benefit that you could gain from having freaks like Munoz or Ogden on the left side. If a guy like Matthews beats the comparatively un-freakish RT and gets past a chip attempt by a RB, then he will disrupt the play, regardless of whether or not the QB can see him coming.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChiFan24 View Post
I was referring to bucfan's post and the post before that listed a bunch of late round left tackles. It seems that bucfan thought that the guy's point was that great players can be found in later rounds, when the actual point was that adequate left tackles can be found in later rounds. Nobody thinks you can consistently find Marquis Coltsons in the seventh or Tom Bradys in the sixth, but I think it's easy to find a guy to stick at left tackle if you don't think your left tackle needs to be that good to begin with.

That's what this discussion is. Sure, the Vikings can take Kalil and LT would be set for 10 years, theoretically. But what is the importance of that? Is it worth passing on a guy that can make a bigger impact?
That's a very good question. And I think that's THE question being thrown around the big mahogany tables in Eden Prairie, Minnesota as we speak.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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All I know is that Spielman's argument is IMO, totally correct. You have a chance to use the #3 pick on an elite player, hopefully their only chance for a very long time, why take Kalil just because conventional wisdom says they should? Pick the guy that will make the biggest impact. If Spielman thinks Claiborne is a true shutdown corner, there's no debate who the pick should be.
the problem with this logic is that shut down corners don't necessarily go top 5. Revis was a mid 1st. Nnamdi was a late 1st. with Left tackles the top end is usually true, corners are a crapshoot.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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I think the key difference between a left tackle and a cornerback, is that when your left tackle is not "good enough" it's really hard to win games in the modern NFL (which generally requires a passing game good enough to convert 3rd and 9s). On the other hand, if your secondary play is not "good enough" it's entirely possible to win games, assuming your offense is top notch (just look at the 2011-2012 Packers and Patriots.)

The left tackle position is certainly overrated, but not in the sense that you don't really need one, but in the sense that "you need to hit a minimum standard of competence in order to keep your QB healthy and make your passing offense functional," but once you've got that guy you don't really need to worry about upgrading the position even if he's not an all-pro.

The thing is, I don't think the Vikings have a guy at either tackle spot that meets the "minimum standards of competency for an NFL offensive tackle" so I think the Kalil pick is obvious.

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Old 03-27-2012, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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The LT has become the most overrated position in the NFL. The Vikings should take the BPA on their board. If its Kalil, then so be it. But the whole idea of a blindside tackle is so overboard.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BuddyCHRIST View Post
The LT has become the most overrated position in the NFL. The Vikings should take the BPA on their board. If its Kalil, then so be it. But the whole idea of a blindside tackle is so overboard.
In the Vikings case we fill two positions by drafting Kalil cuz then we can move Johnson into LG, where he is actually decent. They should absolutely fix the entire left side of their line as opposed to a corner.
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