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Old 04-27-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
onejayhawk
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh, so we're back to the 'let's just assume weeden's actually a good qb and is capable of starting day one, then everything is perfect and makes sense.' no thanks, i already played that game with one poster who hadn't ever seen weeden play. i'd rather not do it a second time.

if they think weeden is a day one starter then crap like lindley isn't going 'push' him in any way whatsoever. it'd be like drafting kellen moore to push peyton.
No one is assuming Weeden is a good QB. This has been convincingly disproven. The Cleveland Browns staff believes he is a starting quality NFL QB. That can now be taken as fact.

If they are wrong, it will not be the first time a team has missed an evaluation. But it is past the time when you can say "No one believes" because some paid professionals do believe.

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Old 04-27-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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What I don't get about Weeden is that it cost a first rounder to get him when they could have just signed Jason Campbell and gotten the same number of years out of him while using the pick on someone who doesn't suck.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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cool story, bro. were you ever planning to give your own opinion of weeden, or are we still playing the 'other people think he's good'/appeal to authority/fallacy crap? i've been waiting for almost a month now.
That's the only thing anybody seems to have when it comes to Weeden. Appeal to Authority.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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That's the only thing anybody seems to have when it comes to Weeden. Appeal to Authority.
It's beautiful pseudo logic. Because experts say he's good even though he's old, has a lot of wear and tear on his shoulder, has very limited experience, doesn't handle pressure well, doesn't have great touch down the field and has never had to face anything close to competent defense, so he must be amazing.

If Weeden were 22 with as much "maturity" as he has know, since that seems to be the only attribute of his his supporters ever mention, and the Browns drafted him at 22 I still wouldn't think it's a great pick. It wouldn't be terrible because with work he could be a mediocre to solid starter a la Matt Cassel or Kyle Orton, but to spend a first round pick on an inexperienced 28 year old version of that guy with shoulder issues is just asinine.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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So much pile jumping in this thread.lol

IMO only two QBs played better last season than Weeden; Luck and RGIII. The rest of these guys are projects.
People better hope that Tannehill learns how to not lose games in the 4th quarter because he tends to press.
And if someone can find tell me what Tannehill's best game was against OU/OSU/Texas last season, please let me know.
As of right now Weeden is 3x the QB Tannehill is from the neck up during actual games.

People are acting like Weeden's arm is attached by silly string, or that he's going to have to get a day pass from the retirement home to play on Sundays.
If you give him protection, a reliable run game and a couple of vertical targets, he's going to put up points for the Browns. If he doesn't show that he's the long term solution for the Browns by the end of the 2012 season, they'll draft a QB in 2013.

Big deal. They whiffed on 1st rounder which probably would have been a WR anyway. Selecting Weeden alone isn't going to make the Browns a playoff contender, and he isn't going to keep them out of the playoffs either.

They still need to upgrade the talent on the Browns roster by several degrees before they can challenge the monsters in the AFCN.

The Browns wanted a QB from this draft, not the guy who's going to be good in 3-4 years but the best prospect RIGHT NOW who can start in September and not poop himself.

That's not Cousins. THat's not Osweiler. That's not Tannehill.
Other than Luck/RGIII, the only QB(other than IMO Russell Wilson) who's ready to start as rookie is Weeden.

In this context, Weeden was the right pick.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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So Weeden is more prepared to start than Tannehill because he won more games throwing the ball to the best WR in this draft class? While the fact that Tannehill handles pressure and moves around in the pocket better, that he has better precision throwing the ball deep and smoother mechanics, doesn't count. Gotcha.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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Tannehill may have better feet in the pocket, but there's no evidence he handles pressure better. In fact I would say it's the opposite.

You can argue that Blackmon 'made' Weeden all you want, the fact is Tannehill choked away games last season for A&M all on his own, which is why many never really saw his as a legit first round prospect because his game wasn't up to par with his physical tools.

Right now Weeden is a better QB than Tannehill, period.

There's nothing wrong with Weeden's throwing mechanics, and I don't even know where you're getting that Tannehill has a better deep ball. Throwing the ball deep isn't just about arm strength,(which Tannehill has), it's about hitting the target you're throwing to so they can pick up YAC and the ability to throw guys open.

Tannehill in no way does this better than Weeden, yet.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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Tannehill may have better feet in the pocket, but there's no evidence he handles pressure better. In fact I would say it's the opposite.

You can argue that Blackmon 'made' Weeden all you want, the fact is Tannehill choked away games last season for A&M all on his own, which is why many never really saw his as a legit first round prospect because his game wasn't up to par with his physical tools.

Right now Weeden is a better QB than Tannehill, period.
********. Tannehill had a **** defense and Mike Sherman lead offense around him. With crap receivers you can't expect a second year QB to win shootout after shootout. Jay Cutler couldn't do it and Jake Locker couldn't either. That didn't make them worse QBs and didn't mean that they weren't as ready to start as someone who had amazing weapons to throw to.

And it's undeniable that Tannehill handles pressure better, Weeden doesn't move well and his accuracy goes to absolute **** if you get heat on him. Tannehill does a great job dipping and dodging for a young guy, much less a young guy so new to the position, and still getting the ball out well and accurately.

Tannehill did a much better job throwing the ball to where only his guy could get it. Weeden did a good job throwing it where his guys could beat the defenders to the ball but that's not what an NFL QB needs to do, an NFL QB needs to put it where defenders can't get to it. Tannehill impressed me a lot more picking shoulders deep and putting his man between the defender and the ball. He wasn't consistent with it, but he showed he could do it and do it well, Weeden never did.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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Tannehill threw 9 INTs against the three most talented teams in the Big 12.

You can blame his HC, his WRs, or even his defense if you want, but IMO his actual game isn't on the level of Weeden in terms of overall consistency and decision making.

The losses to Texas(27-25) and Okl State(30-29), both at home, weren't shootouts. They were losses because their QB couldn't manage the game or lead his team to a FIELD GOAL in the second half.

The loss to OU(41-25) is difficult to process without counting the 3 INTs. Tannehill was garbage against the Sooners.

I think Tannehill is a nice prospect and personally I believe he's going to develop, buy I still contend that 'right now' Weeden is a better overall quarterback.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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cool story, bro. were you ever planning to give your own opinion of weeden, or are we still playing the 'other people think he's good'/appeal to authority/fallacy crap? i've been waiting for almost a month now.


Reading is fundamental. Perhaps the second time will give better results.

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Old 04-27-2012, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Reading is fundamental. Perhaps the second time will give better results.

J
I'd like the logic teacher to explain to us how your post wasn't one big appeal to authority. You're only points are that the Browns thought of him highly enough to take him where they did and that some paid professionals also shared your opinion. At least funbuncher is posting his opinion, even though I disagree with how much he's weighing Tannehill's inability to keep his team from ******** themselves whenever he'd give them a good lead against a good team, it's his.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Back to the OP, I think Weeden is the 3rd best QB in this draft and I would put Russell Wilson 4th. So I don't have a problem with him going in the first round.

But I understand people just don't think he's better than an average or worse NFL starter. I get that. I don't agree, but I understand the argument.

If Tannehill/Weeden were both available at #22, I think it's nearly a lock that Tannehill would have been the pick BTW.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm not ready to jump into this debate but I just came to a pretty interesting realization.

Brandon Weeden threw to better receivers last year at OSU than he will this year in CLE. LOL.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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I'm not ready to jump into this debate but I just came to a pretty interesting realization.

Brandon Weeden threw to better receivers last year at OSU than he will this year in CLE. LOL.
Yep. He'll have Little. Then it's a bunch of short/dump off throws to Richardson/Moore/Watson.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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I just can't wait til the regular season starts and onejayhawk can tell us about how great Weeden is at handing the ball off, and how that ability is proof that his maturity was worth overdrafting that overworked arm for. At least whomever they bring in to replace Weeden will have a running game, OL and Little to work with. Maybe they'll even finish up the defense by then!
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Back to the OP, I think Weeden is the 3rd best QB in this draft and I would put Russell Wilson 4th. So I don't have a problem with him going in the first round.

But I understand people just don't think he's better than an average or worse NFL starter. I get that. I don't agree, but I understand the argument.

If Tannehill/Weeden were both available at #22, I think it's nearly a lock that Tannehill would have been the pick BTW.
I agree, Weeden IMO, was the 3rd best QB in the draft but at 29 next October, he has a career of maybe 6 seasons at the most and 2 or 3 of them will have to go by before he reaches peak efficiency. That is an awful small window for success at the pro level especially when you factor in his shoulder problems.
The Browns are a rebuilding team and by the time they are ready to compete, Weeden will be slowing down so he is hardly someone you build around and that is why the pick absolutely stinks.
Tannehill is a huge gamble IMO. He has potential bust written all over him. Maybe he develops maybe he doesn't and I wouldn't want to put money on the former. I really think the Miami owner forced this pick on Ireland no matter what Ireland claims.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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Yep. He'll have Little. Then it's a bunch of short/dump off throws to Richardson/Moore/Watson.
Eh....Little, Watson, Moore, Cribbs, and Richardson are decent weapons, and Massaquoi, while inconsistent as hell, shows up every once in a while. There is no go to #1 WR though, that is the big thing this offense is missing. If they can run the ball effectively then Weeden should be able to manage the game and move the ball methodically and the offensive weapons won't be as bad as they seem on paper. The Browns still improved their offense greatly this weekend albeit with a few nonsexy picks.

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Old 04-27-2012, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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I'm not ready to jump into this debate but I just came to a pretty interesting realization.

Brandon Weeden threw to better receivers last year at OSU than he will this year in CLE. LOL.
Just one better receiver, but its a VERY important one. For what its worth, Tannehill had strained sewage to throw to.

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Old 04-27-2012, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Eh....Little, Watson, Moore, Cribbs, and Richardson are decent weapons, and Massaquoi, while inconsistent as hell, shows up every once in a while. There is no go to #1 WR though, that is the big thing this offense is missing. If they can run the ball effectively then Weeden should be able to manage the game and move the ball methodically and the offensive weapons won't be as bad as they seem on paper. The Browns still improved their offense greatly this weekend albeit with a few nonsexy picks.

ROBERT WOODS CLEVELAND BROWNS 2013 #1 PICK BANDWAGON! GET ON BOARD EARLY!
Exactly. This is a receiving corps that's good with a #1 type receiver. Without that, there's going to be a lot of struggling... They'll run the rock, but what happens when they get stuffed?
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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Well if they didn't trade down last year there's a chance they could have sacrificed Phil Taylor to build around:

Julio Jones and Trent Richardson.

Then maybe move back up to get Weeden. Or take a guy like Russell Wilson. Or just stick with McCoy. But they'd still have two offensive cornerstones.

Eh.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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Well if they didn't trade down last year there's a chance they could have sacrificed Phil Taylor to build around:

Julio Jones and Trent Richardson.

Then maybe move back up to get Weeden. Or take a guy like Russell Wilson. Or just stick with McCoy. But they'd still have two offensive cornerstones.

Eh.
I'm with you especially considering how deep the DT class was this year. Now if they had taken Sanchez the year before, they might actually be a serious contender by next year.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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I'm with you especially considering how deep the DT class was this year. Now if they had taken Sanchez the year before, they might actually be a serious contender by next year.
I don't think Holmgren is dedicated enough to look ahead like that.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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Cleveland will probably draft a QB in the first round in 2013 too.
I believe you keep drafting QBs high in the draft until you find your guy.

If Trent Richardson can stay health and get on track as a rookie, he's going to make that Browns passing offense look very efficient.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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I will enjoy drinking a beer watching Woodley or Harrison or T-Sizzle beating the **** out of Weeden and him crappinv his pants in a Gabbert-esque way and giggling my freaking ass off.
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:28 AM    (permalink
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WHY IS WEEDEN ABLE TO START AS A ROOKIE?

i've been asking this since the first post i made in this thread, and no one has bothered saying anything other than 'other people think so' or 'he's more mature'. neither of which are remotely true. so seriously, break down his game. tell me where i'm wrong. i've admitted it before and i'll happily do it again. but every single time the argument is solely based on 'well he's older, so he's mature' or 'other people like him so he must be good', i tune out.
Well 'other people think so' is indeed true. Because the Browns are shopping Colt McCoy and will start him. But I understand you want first-hand opinions on him instead of just 'trusting the authority' so to speak.

Also, 'he's more mature' is true as well. NOT in the sense that he's more developed in the Xs and Os and pro-ready because of THAT. But because he's a 28-year old man who has been a professional athlete before and not a 22-year old kid. 22-year old kids' brains aren't even fully developed yet. How much does that matter on the actual field? You think probably very little. I don't know. I do know that GENERALLY SPEAKING, I'd trust a 28-year old man in high pressure situations more than a 22-year old kid. Simply because he's more experienced in his life IS an advantage, but it's more off-the-field, which may or may not affect on-the-field.

And by all accounts, he's an impressive leader, top-notch intangibles, smart, yada-yada-yada. As a 22-year old kid, you can be all those things in college, but struggle because of a lack of maturity. Whether it be not working as hard as a PRO quarterback needs to. Being overwhelmed. Maybe being overwhelmed off the field. Managing money. Growing up in the public eye. Not being able to get the respect of veterans. This is actually Mark Sanchez now that I think about it - wow. And because Weeden's 28, it's logical to assume those types of things won't happen.

So before I get to what you want, I'll answer your question: he's ready to start right now because _____________, he'll be given the keys, pick up the playbook (much easier now with NFL offenses adopting spread principles AND all the OTAs), and immediately be a leader of men. I can't predict the future, but it is logical to assume this based on the reports of his character/intelligence.

FINALLY to _____________, what you've been waiting for.

He's good at everything you want in a QB prospect tools-wise. Ideal size. MATURITY (lol). And intangibles. It really is as simple as that.

+ He's got an absolute gun. They actually did throw the infamous deep out there a few times.
+ Mechanics/footwork/release seem fine if not flawless. He didn't face much pressure and when he did, he tended to throw off his back foot and *shocker* be less accurate. But that's normal. Also was always shotgun but I think he proved fine under center at Sr. Bowl.
+ Great anticipation. Throws slants, digs accurately nearly every time.
+ Accuracy in intermediate/short game is as good as it gets. He'll be able to hit tight windows in the NFL.
+ Throws surprisingly well on the run. Not fast though.
+ He hits some posts/seams in between guys on ROPES (Iowa State there are two and Texas one that are HOLY ****).
+ He doesn't make THAT many bad decisions.

- His offense has a lot of one-read stuff. And by good design, there are sometimes wide open targets. So what happens is, he locks in to primary and can get in trouble. He threw picks in college because of it. Sometimes he trusts his gun too much. He'll throw picks in the NFL. Also, he doesn't do much of reading defenses (and big 12 defenses are very vanilla anyway). That will be an adjustment, especially as it pertains to zone blitzes, etc.
- When he sees man or C3 on Blackmon, he'll throw the 9 even though he shouldn't. Safeties are going to bait the **** out of him on that.
- He doesn't make any adjustments at the line. Not sure if it's really a negative because he'll probably be fine doing it in the NFL.
- His pocket is always almost always clean. Like spotless in some games. When there is pressure, the good thing is that he keeps his eyes downfield and his arm is good enough to get it out. Bad thing is that he'll throw off his back foot (but friggin Eli STILL does this). Also, that means you really can't evaluate his pocket presence in terms of mobility within the pocket (what Manning/Brady are so good at).
- Things move very slowly and easy back there for him so facing the Cyclones pass rush to the Steelers is going to be crazy. But he IS tough. No Gabbert here. He'll take hits.
- His deep ball isn't great. He doesn't have ideal touch. But he's got a cannon. And his accuracy in the 20-30 yards downfield range is very good, as is hitting throws deep odd routes (outside-breaking such as outs, corners/flags)
- His playaction sucks. It just does. Not a big deal but it's terrible.
- He did the Orlovsky against Texas.

So he's going to have to adjust to the NFL. He's going to have to study. A lot. Memorize his playbook. Speed. LOS stuff. It's going to be VERY different from Oklahoma State. But today rookie QBs can succeed. NFL offenses have similar concepts. He'll get used to the speed. And I think he'll handle the adjustment well.

The positive outlook is based on the fact that he possesses these three essential QB-specific physical tools:
IDEAL SIZE
PER-REQUISITE ARM STRENGTH (More than enough)
GREAT ACCURACY
ANTICIPATION

and reportedly has the LEADERSHIP, INTELLIGENCE, TOUGHNESS intangibles.

Is he a perfect prospect? No. But he's closer to it than you think.

My quick opinion on the two hot topics though (and I hope people don't even respond to these two things):

1) His age IS NOT A HUGE NEGATIVE AT ALL. QBs play well into their 30s and he's a pocket passer. If he hits his stride in year 3 , he'll be 31 and in his prime. Who wouldn't want a 31-year old franchise QB in his prime. If he's not a franchise QB obviously the negative was something other than his age...

2) This notion that because he blew out his arm pitching or something, his shoulder is going to break down. Watch the tape. The dude's arm is MORE THAN FINE. I trust the Browns doctors here. There is no pitch count in football for a reason. You think Brett Favre can't still throw it over dem mountains? Projecting injuries is a very cheap way to argue against a prospect. How would you know that he's more susceptible to injury than say, any other ******* QB? And if that were even remotely true, if he was even 2% more likely to require surgery down the road for some future injury then why did a team that employs doctors to do every ******* test in the world on these kids just invest millions in him. Come on.
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